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Discussion of Internal Pitching Options
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Post by pedey on May 6, 2015 8:01:34 GMT -5
I was surprised to read this on MLB Trade Rumors:"the bigger concern remains a rotation that has struggled badly. Though it is reasonable to hope that the results will begin to better match the underlying peripherals, Bradford says that the team does not have any obviously promising internal candidates to add quality innings in the near term."
I'm going to have to disagree with that. I think the Sox have 4 quality prospects nearly big-league ready in Barnes, Owens, E-Rod, and Johnson.
Would you agree with Rob Bradford, or do you think that the Sox have good pitching options in the minors?
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Post by mgoetze on May 6, 2015 8:03:21 GMT -5
"the bigger concern remains a rotation that has struggled badly."
Yes, I disagree with this strongly.
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Post by mgoetze on May 6, 2015 8:04:20 GMT -5
As for how good I feel about our internal pitching options, let me get back to you after tonight's PawSox game.
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on May 6, 2015 8:19:00 GMT -5
I think it's fair to say that E-Rod, Owens, and Johnson all have limited innings in AAA, and all have their question marks that are discussed in many other threads on this board. And as far as Barnes, most have him pegged as a future bullpen arm. So if the question is, "Is there someone who is absolutely major league ready to pitch 7 good-to-decent inning every 5 days starting tomorrow?", I would have to agree with Bradford. However I think by July guys like Owens, Johnson, and E-Rod should have shown enough to change that.
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Post by GyIantosca on May 6, 2015 8:36:08 GMT -5
I agree the rotation needs an adjustment. But I said it before the bullpen was built on the fly to me. I want the FO to aggressively make a plan to build a bullpen from our young arms that won't pan out in rotation. I mean there's only so many spots available.this is what the Yankees do that I like. But over the years the Sox just won't do it. They pretty much get a veteran from here and there. I mean it is a good thing to convert more of these talented arms. He wasn't ours but the Miller is a good example we spent so much time on him.
They need more time but. I like what I see from Noe Rameirz, Joe Gunkel, and Pat Light . I also think you can fast track bullpen arms from the minors. I hope the FO learned something from this. I also think Buch sets a terrible tone for this staff . I had enough of him.
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Post by joshv02 on May 6, 2015 9:16:58 GMT -5
"the bigger concern remains a rotation that has struggled badly." Yes, I disagree with this strongly. I agree. The rotation has been middle of the road; the issue has been more the clustering of hits allowed (LOB% for starters, really). The relievers have sucked, though. Relatively low SO rates, adequate but not good BB rates, and too many FBs.
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Post by jdb on May 6, 2015 10:19:24 GMT -5
I think we could have a few guys in AAA step up but there's probably going to be Hamels alternatives in guys like Kazmier and Garza. Still too early to judge for me but I'd like to see E Rod and Johnson get chances before July.
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Post by iakovos11 on May 6, 2015 10:29:37 GMT -5
Wright could be an option. And a bit later in the year ERod and Johnson. I think there is virtually no chance Owens gets meaningful starts in Boston this year. He seems a step behind. Still working on his fastball command and developing his new slider.
Barnes to the bullpen might happen in June/July, too. I think they could do that for the remainder of the year and still keep him a starter for next year if they want. But they may need some serious help in the BP - especially someone who can get K's.
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Post by mookiemagicfan on May 6, 2015 10:58:14 GMT -5
Ok guys. If you all have something meaningful to say, please say it with some sort of organization so the rest of us do not have to decipher what you say...please? Anyways on the topic at hand; there are plenty of options down on the farm that can help our staff overal. For instance...let's get rid of Muj(I'll serve up another cake fastabll)ica and let Barnes come up and use the 95-98 mph fastball that he shows in smaller spurts. We need someone who can come in and get the big strike out...someone who is young enough to not be afraid to come inside on anyone in the division. Also, as previously stated...none of our AAA pitchers (starters) can come up right now and throw more than 5+innings. That isn't happening yet. No matter how much we(myself included) want to see E Rod come up and start...it's not time yet unfortunately. As of right now...our best bet to improve our overall pitching is to rid the bp of the dead weight (Mujica, etc) and bring up the kids who have something to prove...(Barnes, Layne, etc) btw...once the other piece of the Peavy trade gets healthy, Escobar, I think we will have one more valuable bp arm. Anyways, thanks for reading...this is my first post here @ soxprospects, and it will not be my last. I follow the minor leagues as much as a fantasy football fanatic follows rankings...so yeah I have a vast amount of untapped (but bias and useless) knowledge. Thanks.
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Post by jrffam05 on May 6, 2015 11:01:07 GMT -5
Ok guys. If you all have something meaningful to say, please say it with some sort of organization so the rest of us do not have to decipher what you say...please? Great advice Welcome to the forums.
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Post by jmei on May 6, 2015 11:43:53 GMT -5
As of right now...our best bet to improve our overall pitching is to rid the bp of the dead weight (Mujica, etc) and bring up the kids who have something to prove...(Barnes, Layne, etc) Edward Mujica is six months older than Tommy Layne.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 6, 2015 11:56:39 GMT -5
Sean McAdam notes that the team has had internal discussions about keeping a long man in the bullpen. www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/long-reliever-could-be-needed-overworked-bullpenI'm beginning to think that might be a good idea, and Wright is probably the guy. Option Ross and call up Wright. Elsewhere, I'd give Mujica until the end of May to figure it out before DFA'ing him. At that point, it might be time to bring up Barnes, who adds a strikeout element that's missing in the bullpen right now - Sox RPs are striking out 7.17 per 9, 24th in baseball. Koji is the only reliever averaging a K an inning. In the rotation, I think you have to give all five of them until at least July before you think about making a move, unless someone gets even worse.
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danr
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Post by danr on May 6, 2015 12:05:16 GMT -5
How is it that so many other teams keep coming up with RPs with serious gas and the Sox don't? I'd like to see the Sox make some minor league deals to add some of those guys to the system.
I am not optimistic that Masterson is going to last as a starter unless he gets a little MPH on his fastball.
Miley has not been himself this year. If he gets back to the kind of pitching he did previously he probably will be OK, not an ace, but a solid 3-4 starter.
Kelly's problem is command. Everyone knows that. The big questions are whether he is going to be able to acquire that command, and how long is it going to take?
Buchholz is what he is and he can't be the leader of this staff. I have thought, and frequently written, for a long time, that the Sox should get rid of him. Now I would do it for almost anything, maybe some hard-throwing A or even short season level guy.
The leader of the staff has to be Porcello. He is the best pitcher on the staff and it appears he is going to have a good season.
So, I would move Masterson to the bullpen and trade Buchholz and Mujica. I then would promote Rodriguez, and either Johnson or Barnes. I don't think they could be worse. And I would do it soon. That way the Sox will have a much better idea of what to do come trade deadline time.
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Post by jimed14 on May 6, 2015 12:08:25 GMT -5
I am not optimistic that Masterson is going to last as a starter unless he gets a little MPH on his fastball. He was hitting 90 in his last start which is fine.
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Post by James Dunne on May 6, 2015 12:28:36 GMT -5
I'm not so confident that the rotation will match its peripherals:
-Masterson has a career ERA .40 higher than his FIP and xFIP (which are about equal), because teams cluster lefties against him. He actually hasn't been so awful against lefties this year but it's still a major concern and I don't think we can take for granted that he's the pitcher that his FIP indicates.
-Buchholz, too, has massively underperformed his FIP since the start of last year, to the point where I have trouble believing it is only luck. When clustering is a problem over a start or two or even ten, then yeah, I'm willing to write it off to bad luck. But over 200+ innings? Yeah, that worries me.
-Miley is better than this, I think. He hasn't pitched well at all, but he has enough history of success that I'm not going to let six starts change my mind.
-Kelly was the pitcher I was lowest on coming into the season, which shows you how much I know.
-Porcello is pitching very well again, and I think can be counted on as one of the more dependable pitchers in the league.
And then, while the pitching has been unlucky on balls in play and sequencing, it has been extremely fortunate in terms of health. How many teams have had every game so far this season started by its projected Top 5? So even if the Red Sox don't need to turn to their depth options because of performance, it's tough to imagine they'll go all season without having to because of health.
As far as internal depth is concerned, I think Wright and Barnes are basically ready to start if needed. I'd be fine calling on Rodriguez or Johnson in an emergency, though I think both could really benefit from at least two more months at Triple-A.
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Post by mgoetze on May 6, 2015 12:38:49 GMT -5
-Buchholz, too, has massively underperformed his FIP since the start of last year, to the point where I have trouble believing it is only luck. When clustering is a problem over a start or two or even ten, then yeah, I'm willing to write it off to bad luck. But over 200+ innings? Yeah, that worries me. He was clearly not pitching to his true talent level in April and May 2014, if you throw out those two months you get a different picture. Buchholz was the only Red Sox starting pitcher predicted by ZiPS to have a lower ERA than FIP pre-2014. If there's one thing I'm absolutely not worried about it's Buchholz' BABIP going down.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 6, 2015 12:45:25 GMT -5
I think it's fair to say that E-Rod, Owens, and Johnson all have limited innings in AAA, and all have their question marks that are discussed in many other threads on this board. And as far as Barnes, most have him pegged as a future bullpen arm. So if the question is, "Is there someone who is absolutely major league ready to pitch 7 good-to-decent inning every 5 days starting tomorrow?", I would have to agree with Bradford. However I think by July guys like Owens, Johnson, and E-Rod should have shown enough to change that. There are very few questions left about Rodriguez, at least for me. While a few more games would help to nail it down, his stuff and control both seem to be big-league ready. I'll say it again, lefthanders who can dial it up to 97, with good to very good secondary stuff don't grow on trees. I don't think we have a good idea of what his ceiling is just yet, but it could be high. That's the only question I have at this point.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 6, 2015 13:03:18 GMT -5
"the bigger concern remains a rotation that has struggled badly." Yes, I disagree with this strongly. I agree. The rotation has been middle of the road; the issue has been more the clustering of hits allowed (LOB% for starters, really). The relievers have sucked, though. Relatively low SO rates, adequate but not good BB rates, and too many FBs. Maybe so, but can't you make the argument that the relievers are throwing more innings than they should because whether you think the Sox rotation is receiving a bum rap or not, they are not pitching a lot of innings and the bullpen has had to take on a heavier load than they should have to? I don't disagree with the low K rates and mediocre walk rates. I mean, watching the Yankees pen operate, and watching how strong the Royals' pen was last year, it's kind of eye opening as to what the Sox don't have, especially from the left side of the pitcher's mound. Tazawa and Ogando are good to decent pitchers and Uehara is a guy to worry about, but it seems like he's getting back to (mixing in his 87 MPH fastball with his splitter) what he has been doing before he went splitter happy. I think they'll miss Varvaro when all is said and done. It's kind of ironic. He was all that was left of the "trade" that sent Theo to the Cubs and now he winds up with Theo on the Cubs.
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Post by mgoetze on May 6, 2015 13:48:28 GMT -5
Maybe so, but can't you make the argument that the relievers are throwing more innings than they should because whether you think the Sox rotation is receiving a bum rap or not, they are not pitching a lot of innings and the bullpen has had to take on a heavier load than they should have to? Yes, and what is the conclusion of that argument? The person to blame for this is Farrell, who is hooking starters that are pitching well (but having bad luck) after 60, 80 pitches. If you want to make this argument in support of firing Farrell, I'm all for it.
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Post by m1keyboots on May 6, 2015 13:54:43 GMT -5
I think it's fair to say that E-Rod, Owens, and Johnson all have limited innings in AAA, and all have their question marks that are discussed in many other threads on this board. And as far as Barnes, most have him pegged as a future bullpen arm. So if the question is, "Is there someone who is absolutely major league ready to pitch 7 good-to-decent inning every 5 days starting tomorrow?", I would have to agree with Bradford. However I think by July guys like Owens, Johnson, and E-Rod should have shown enough to change that. There are very few questions left about Rodriguez, at least for me. While a few more games would help to nail it down, his stuff and control both seem to be big-league ready. I'll say it again, lefthanders who can dial it up to 97, with good to very good secondary stuff don't grow on trees. I don't think we have a good idea of what his ceiling is just yet, but it could be high. That's the only question I have at this point. A poster stated that the lefty trio would be hard pressed to go 5+, I personally feel like Brian Johnson and Rodriguez can get into the 6th and 7th, as deterioration of their stuff hasn't been much of an issue if at all. Johnson has the college experience and moxy, and Rodriguez (this may totally be me, but looks as if is on a strict pitch count of around 90 and still goes 6+) doesnt lose the velocity. It seems like there have been several starts where Justin or Rick, even Kelly get through 4,5 and then implode. So while I like Kelly and Miley, and see them at least evening out, I believe Rodriguez absolutely is ready, more so than Johnson bc of pure stuff. Even Rodriguez on an off day (91-93 with 2 average-ish secondaries) is major league starter. I love wright and all, and have a man crush on average lefties who mow ppl down-johnson-. I hope Rodriguez is the first call for the first spot start, haven't seen that kind of stuff from a lefty since 2011 Lester, dialing it up to 97 with the 92 cutter. Edit. Seen that kind of stuff in Fenway
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 6, 2015 16:00:55 GMT -5
Maybe so, but can't you make the argument that the relievers are throwing more innings than they should because whether you think the Sox rotation is receiving a bum rap or not, they are not pitching a lot of innings and the bullpen has had to take on a heavier load than they should have to? Yes, and what is the conclusion of that argument? The person to blame for this is Farrell, who is hooking starters that are pitching well (but having bad luck) after 60, 80 pitches. If you want to make this argument in support of firing Farrell, I'm all for it. I get what you're saying, but when the starters are constantly giving up 5 runs in the first few innings it's hard to stay with the starter, especially when they're big innings and not the 1 run here 1 run there type. I'm not ready to say fire Farrell. I can be more patient in that regard.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 6, 2015 16:05:14 GMT -5
RE: pulling starters too soon, I recall the Red Sox doing a lot of research on "high-stress" innings (as in arm stress, not mental stress). I know they've had strict rules in place in the minors at some levels that pitchers need to come out of games if they throw 30 pitches in an inning. My guess is that, especially early in the season, a big inning might have the effect of lowering the pitch count that the club will be looking to go to the bullpen so as to avoid injuries.
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Post by mgoetze on May 6, 2015 18:23:44 GMT -5
As for how good I feel about our internal pitching options, let me get back to you after tonight's PawSox game. I haven't been watching but Wright is now a third of the way through a perfect game so I'm once again feeling very good about him as our 6th starter.
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Post by mookiemagicfan on May 7, 2015 8:40:22 GMT -5
I think it's fair to say that E-Rod, Owens, and Johnson all have limited innings in AAA, and all have their question marks that are discussed in many other threads on this board. And as far as Barnes, most have him pegged as a future bullpen arm. So if the question is, "Is there someone who is absolutely major league ready to pitch 7 good-to-decent inning every 5 days starting tomorrow?", I would have to agree with Bradford. However I think by July guys like Owens, Johnson, and E-Rod should have shown enough to change that. There are very few questions left about Rodriguez, at least for me. While a few more games would help to nail it down, his stuff and control both seem to be big-league ready. I'll say it again, lefthanders who can dial it up to 97, with good to very good secondary stuff don't grow on trees. I don't think we have a good idea of what his ceiling is just yet, but it could be high. That's the only question I have at this point.
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Post by mookiemagicfan on May 7, 2015 8:44:29 GMT -5
Sorry. Still learning on the Job(phone as well) But how can you say there are little to no questions about ERod? Until he came to the RS he was having issues in Bal. Also, do you not remember what Andrew Miller was,"supposed" to be? He was(is) a tall left hander who could dial it up and had plus secondaries as well...but! He flammed out as a starter...I would like ERod to have a little more seasoning before we start anointing him the next great RS anything. Maybe go the Price route and bring him up for some high leverage situations out of the bp? That way he gains confidence in striking out mlb hitters at a time when it is most crucial (at the end of the game)
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