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5/8-5/10 Red Sox @ Blue Jays Series Thread
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Post by wskeleton76 on May 9, 2015 20:53:32 GMT -5
All problems come from Ben's mistakes. Fire him.
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Post by grandsalami on May 9, 2015 21:03:14 GMT -5
All problems come from Ben's mistakes. Fire him. Nope
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Post by scottysmalls on May 9, 2015 21:09:13 GMT -5
All the people complaining about Cherington, this IS a good team. The talent should make it one of the better teams in the American league despite the injuries at catcher. Clearly it is not performing like that right now, but nearly every good team each season has a rough 20 game stretch at some point or another. It just so happens that ours is at the beginning of the season so it is especially noticeable. It is still very possible, and I would say likely, for the Sox to right the ship and be a playoff contender.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on May 9, 2015 22:29:22 GMT -5
I can't imagine a worse decision than bringing up Wright.
Yuck.
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danr
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Post by danr on May 9, 2015 22:52:02 GMT -5
I agree about Masterson but not about Breslow or Wright. So, what would you do instead? Go to a 4 man rotation? And this is based on what? His career 3.66 ERA in the majors? Your personal dislike of knuckleballers? I have no prejudice against knuckleballers. I was a big fan of Wakefield, and I am old enough to remember Hoyt Wilhelm, etc. It is a pitch that when really mastered can be incredible. I even remember hitting against a knuckleballer on my high school team - I should say not hitting -- He got a pro contract but didn't make it. I even threw a few myself in my very brief time as a pitcher. I don't think Wright's knuckleball measures up to those that have been successful in the majors. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. He's probably as prepared as he ever is going to be to be a major league starter. My choice is Johnson, followed by Rodriguez. But I can see the argument to try Wright.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2015 23:16:19 GMT -5
All the people complaining about Cherington, this IS a good team. The talent should make it one of the better teams in the American league despite the injuries at catcher. Clearly it is not performing like that right now, but nearly every good team each season has a rough 20 game stretch at some point or another. It just so happens that ours is at the beginning of the season so it is especially noticeable. It is still very possible, and I would say likely, for the Sox to right the ship and be a playoff contender. You don't have a good team when you don't have decent starting pitching. Porcello (another team's #5 starter), Masterson (a project on a one year contract who even when he wasn't a project never could get out lefties), Buchholz (an inconsistent pitcher with a bad back), Miley (a low strike zone nibbler switching leagues to the AL East at a time when MLB is trying to cut down on strike calls low in the zone) and Kelly (a guy who's averaged 16 starts his first 3 years in the majors) are not now nor were they ever anywhere near a decent starting staff. During the offseason, much was made of this group not having an "Ace." That was only half the story though. What we really had was more like two guys with the upside of a #3 (Porcello and Buchholz), two possible #4 type pitchers (Miley and Kelly) and one clear #5 (Masterson). That's how you get to where we are today.
My concern is what the future holds. Our top four remaining starting pitching prospects are all lefties. When you step away from the Kool-Aid bowl, you realize that we'll be lucky if one (most likely Rodriguez) sticks as a starting pitcher. Two (Owens and Johnson) have questionable present trade value. The last (Ball) is a lottery ticket. So, the team will, at some point, need to acquire starting pitching either via trade or free agency. The first option requires an expenditure of position player prospects (something the Sox seem loathe to do) while the latter option requires financial flexibility (something the Sox have much less of after signing Hanley, Pablo, Rusney and Porcello to $75 million worth of annual salary over the next four seasons). It's a mess of the team's own making.
And this doesn't begin to address imbalance in the batting lineup.
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Post by larrycook on May 9, 2015 23:46:10 GMT -5
I have only seen Bradley twice this year at pawtucket, but it is apparent from the two times I have seen him that he still can not consistently hit anything on the inner third of the plate.
His numbers may look good, but the minor leaguers are not hitting their spots and he can kill mistakes.
I have not seen Castillo live yet. Not sure what he brings to the table.
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 10, 2015 7:47:42 GMT -5
I am not sure how good or bad this team is. It has a lot of players who should be doing better.
However, I am sure there is no quick fix. Theo left behind a mess. The Red Sox currently have nothing to show for their 2006 - 2010 player development. Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart and others could eventually form that necessary young core; however at the moment they are overly dependent on their young players developing more quickly than young players normally do.
The strategy of trying to acquire enough second tier free agents to compete for a wild card while protecting your core prospects until they can develop is still the right one.
As bad as it seems right now, I think the alternative is worse.
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Post by scottysmalls on May 10, 2015 8:31:41 GMT -5
All the people complaining about Cherington, this IS a good team. The talent should make it one of the better teams in the American league despite the injuries at catcher. Clearly it is not performing like that right now, but nearly every good team each season has a rough 20 game stretch at some point or another. It just so happens that ours is at the beginning of the season so it is especially noticeable. It is still very possible, and I would say likely, for the Sox to right the ship and be a playoff contender. You don't have a good team when you don't have decent starting pitching. Porcello (another team's #5 starter), Masterson (a project on a one year contract who even when he wasn't a project never could get out lefties), Buchholz (an inconsistent pitcher with a bad back), Miley (a low strike zone nibbler switching leagues to the AL East at a time when MLB is trying to cut down on strike calls low in the zone) and Kelly (a guy who's averaged 16 starts his first 3 years in the majors) are not now nor were they ever anywhere near a decent starting staff. During the offseason, much was made of this group not having an "Ace." That was only half the story though. What we really had was more like two guys with the upside of a #3 (Porcello and Buchholz), two possible #4 type pitchers (Miley and Kelly) and one clear #5 (Masterson). That's how you get to where we are today.
My concern is what the future holds. Our top four remaining starting pitching prospects are all lefties. When you step away from the Kool-Aid bowl, you realize that we'll be lucky if one (most likely Rodriguez) sticks as a starting pitcher. Two (Owens and Johnson) have questionable present trade value. The last (Ball) is a lottery ticket. So, the team will, at some point, need to acquire starting pitching either via trade or free agency. The first option requires an expenditure of position player prospects (something the Sox seem loathe to do) while the latter option requires financial flexibility (something the Sox have much less of after signing Hanley, Pablo, Rusney and Porcello to $75 million worth of annual salary over the next four seasons). It's a mess of the team's own making.
And this doesn't begin to address imbalance in the batting lineup.
Trying to go through and number the pitchers in the rotation is so dumb and pointless that I won't bother getting into it. By reasonable projections, Porcello, Buchholz and Miley all should have been solid starters. Masterson was a reclamation project that the Red Sox decided to risk because they have a good amount of potential replacements in AAA and Kelly gave them the chance to potentially find a dominant starter cheap with his stuff, it's beginning to look like he just won't be able to command it enough to stick in the rotation but they were right to try to find out (and are still right to try a little longer, as he has shown some promising signs). With the depth the Red Sox have they are in a fantastic position to trade for an ace-like pitcher if they desire (and I would say they probably will at some point this year), and with the money coming off the books in the off-season they are also in position to sign one if they find a deal they like. The lineup, imbalanced or not, should be fantastic and will be soon.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on May 10, 2015 9:28:16 GMT -5
Yayyy Scottie. With Craig, Vic, Scott catching up in the minors, and Mujics in Oakland, replaced by Barnes, Bradley, Wright, the team seems better balanced, certainly energized. Willis could make a difference. Castillo next up with Johnson or EdRod? The fabled depth of 2015 emerges just in time, we can hope.
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Post by Guidas on May 10, 2015 9:33:29 GMT -5
All the people complaining about Cherington, this IS a good team. The talent should make it one of the better teams in the American league despite the injuries at catcher. Clearly it is not performing like that right now, but nearly every good team each season has a rough 20 game stretch at some point or another. It just so happens that ours is at the beginning of the season so it is especially noticeable. It is still very possible, and I would say likely, for the Sox to right the ship and be a playoff contender. You don't have a good team when you don't have decent starting pitching. Porcello (another team's #5 starter), Masterson (a project on a one year contract who even when he wasn't a project never could get out lefties), Buchholz (an inconsistent pitcher with a bad back), Miley (a low strike zone nibbler switching leagues to the AL East at a time when MLB is trying to cut down on strike calls low in the zone) and Kelly (a guy who's averaged 16 starts his first 3 years in the majors) are not now nor were they ever anywhere near a decent starting staff. During the offseason, much was made of this group not having an "Ace." That was only half the story though. What we really had was more like two guys with the upside of a #3 (Porcello and Buchholz), two possible #4 type pitchers (Miley and Kelly) and one clear #5 (Masterson). That's how you get to where we are today.
My concern is what the future holds. Our top four remaining starting pitching prospects are all lefties. When you step away from the Kool-Aid bowl, you realize that we'll be lucky if one (most likely Rodriguez) sticks as a starting pitcher. Two (Owens and Johnson) have questionable present trade value. The last (Ball) is a lottery ticket. So, the team will, at some point, need to acquire starting pitching either via trade or free agency. The first option requires an expenditure of position player prospects (something the Sox seem loathe to do) while the latter option requires financial flexibility (something the Sox have much less of after signing Hanley, Pablo, Rusney and Porcello to $75 million worth of annual salary over the next four seasons). It's a mess of the team's own making.
And this doesn't begin to address imbalance in the batting lineup.
I agree with both these points, and the second point was a significant issue of concern a few others and I raised this winter. Specifically: this team could potentially have two starters depart in the off season. Kelly may work out some day as a starter - personally I see him as a pen arm - but his development as a member of a MLB rotation is nothing a team in a tight division (and right now mired below .500) can afford to wait long on; at least, not an MLB team that wants to win. But more important, there isn't a lot behind these guys. I am optimistic about Rodriguez but he probably would benefit more from another half year or more in AAA. When he does come up it is unlikely he will initially perform better than a #4 starter. And behind him? Owens, who many here love but I still can't see him being better than a 4/5 on an AL team (if that). Same with Wright (no offense Erick) who looks like a 5 who will perhaps pitch like a 3 on somedays and a 7 on others. Johnson's another 4/5, great command and control, but I think his stuff will get knocked around the park second or third time through the order in MLB. And then?… This org does not have a single MLB starter in AA and only 1 guy in high A who right now looks better than a #4/5 - Buttrey - and he is soooo far away. Which means they will either have to make some significant trades of high end position player talent for the elite/near elite younger pitching they covet since team has not been able to draft/develop very good/near elite starting pitching talent since Jon Lester (and occasionally, Buchholz) OR or they are going to have to shatter their pronouncements of not paying long term deals to pitchers over 30 to grab one or more of those guys this off season.
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Post by dcsoxfan on May 10, 2015 10:18:59 GMT -5
The Red Sox are almost certainly going to have to sign a top end pitcher to a high end deal (which is why I opposed the Sandoval deal).
If you assume Porcello is a solid rotation piece and one of the Pawtucket starters evolves into a solid middle of the rotation starter and either Miley or Kelly reverts back to being a solid back-end starter, you're really just a Price or Cueto away from where you want to be.
But it still comes down to how long it takes for the Red Sox to develop a core of young talent. Unfortunately are best prospects are still very young compared to what they are being asked to do.
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Post by mgoetze on May 10, 2015 10:29:55 GMT -5
Bogaerts finally moves up a spot. JBJ now in Farrell's hate-hole.
And ugh, looks like rotation unchanged with Wright coming up today rather than later.
Gordon Edes @gordonedes · 1h1 hour ago
Jackie Bradley Jr indeed here along with Steven Wright. Craig, Ross sent down to Pawtucket ? Gordon Edes @gordonedes · 1h1 hour ago
Betts cf Pedroia 2b Ortiz DH Ramirez LF Sandoval 3b Napoli 1b Bogaerts ss Bradley Jr 9 Leon C Buchholz 1b
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on May 10, 2015 10:35:08 GMT -5
Guidas may be right about the weakness in the minor league pitching below Pawtucket, but Salem seems to have a strong pitching staff now, with several showing strong potential. A couple of those guys might show up in Portland in the second half.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 10, 2015 10:56:16 GMT -5
Yayyy Scottie. With Craig, Vic, Scott catching up in the minors, and Mujics in Oakland, replaced by Barnes, Bradley, Wright, the team seems better balanced, certainly energized. Willis could make a difference. Castillo next up with Johnson or EdRod? The fabled depth of 2015 emerges just in time, we can hope. Peeked in yesterday during a day-long meeting I was attending, and it figured the changes were coming. The eval period looks to be over for Craig, and Ross hasn't been performing. As difficult as Bradley's last season was, it's hard to imagine he'll be any worse with the bat than Craig, and he does give them another lefty to throw out there to go along with highlight calibre defense. Craig gets to try and revive his hitting away from the glare of the media, and Wright gives them the long-man they need. It all makes sense, and I don't think it's the last change in store for the team.
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Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2015 11:16:24 GMT -5
Most of us want Craig to be gone, but those who are arguing he should be DFA'd don't seem to realize that the Sox owe him $9 million next year and $10 million in 2017. As a result he isn't going to be DFA'd. The Sox either have to include him in a trade, or send him to the minors. What the hell good is that for anyone?
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Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2015 11:19:17 GMT -5
Bradley's numbers are inflated by a .398 BABIP rate this year (with a 50% GB%) but anyone is better than Craig. And, hey, maybe he can bring some of that luck up with him. And maybe Craig can spend 50-100 consecutive PAs getting his timing back. Bradley could have a .198 BABIP and hit a lot better than Craig. Plus there's his defense.
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Post by Guidas on May 10, 2015 11:22:02 GMT -5
Bogaerts finally moves up a spot. JBJ now in Farrell's hate-hole. And ugh, looks like rotation unchanged with Wright coming up today rather than later. Gordon Edes @gordonedes · 1h1 hour ago Jackie Bradley Jr indeed here along with Steven Wright. Craig, Ross sent down to Pawtucket ? Gordon Edes @gordonedes · 1h1 hour ago Betts cf Pedroia 2b Ortiz DH Ramirez LF Sandoval 3b Napoli 1b Bogaerts ss Bradley Jr 9 Leon C Buchholz 1b Speaking of Farrell's hate hole, read a lot of articles this winter saying how Sox were being queried widely on Nava but Ben decided not to sell because that LH bat was too valuable. I love Nava but would love just as much to know what he's turned down since it looks like this will be yet another Ben Cherrington sell low move.
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Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2015 11:23:34 GMT -5
I hope the Red Sox send Craig down and he is able to find his swing. Reading through Red Sox related Twitter makes me sick to be a fan. The negativity and personal attacks against players like Craig is sickening. I have nothing against Craig. The negativity is for Ben/John's decision to waste -0.5 fWAR from him hoping he was going to improve while showing absolutely no flashes that he's any better than last year when they have had the option to play him in AAA from the beginning of the season.
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danr
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Post by danr on May 10, 2015 11:26:02 GMT -5
Most of us want Craig to be gone, but those who are arguing he should be DFA'd don't seem to realize that the Sox owe him $9 million next year and $10 million in 2017. As a result he isn't going to be DFA'd. The Sox either have to include him in a trade, or send him to the minors. What the hell good is that for anyone? I don't understand your question.
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Post by benjaminbuttons on May 10, 2015 11:30:24 GMT -5
Interesting that the Jays chose to give Russell Martin the day off on the Buchholz start considering he crushes him, 5-16 with 4 HR's...
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 10, 2015 11:30:48 GMT -5
A couple of those guys might show up in Portland in the second half. And they'll still be a couple years away if they did, although I sincerely doubt Ball or Stankiewicz get a meaningful call-up to Portland this year, beyond, perhaps, a short acclimation call-up in August.
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Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2015 11:31:45 GMT -5
What the hell good is that for anyone? I don't understand your question. How long do they let him waste a spot in AAA? The guy cannot hit. I bet he hits no better in AAA. He looks like a worse hitter than David Ross right now. The only way he should stay forever is if he actually hits soon. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much money he's making. Now that he's in the minors, I'd put him about 12th on the OF depth chart and 5th at 1B.
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danr
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Post by danr on May 10, 2015 11:41:06 GMT -5
I don't understand your question. How long do they let him waste a spot in AAA? The guy cannot hit. I bet he hits no better in AAA. He looks like a worse hitter than David Ross right now. The only way he should stay forever is if he actually hits soon. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how much money he's making. Now that he's in the minors, I'd put him about 12th on the OF depth chart and 5th at 1B. Of course. But he couldn't stay on the major league team. Putting him at Pawtucket creates a chance he can recover some of his hitting skill, and if he does he then has some value for trade purposes. Right now I think they would have a hard time getting anything for him and would have to eat most, if not all of his salary because there isn't a Texas to do a Hamilton type deal. So it makes more sense to give him a minor league and see what happens.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 10, 2015 11:43:02 GMT -5
Right, given his contract, you can't just cut him and be paying a guy 11 million in 2017 who hasn't been on your team in two years. You have to try to rebuild his trade value, at the very least, in any way possible. Sending him to Pawtucket and getting him regular at-bats is the best way to try to do that.
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