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5/22-5/24 Red Sox vs. Angels Series Thread
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 22, 2015 22:09:50 GMT -5
So good! So good!! So good!!! your avatar is about right The worst part is that I don't think Cherington is capable of putting it together. He did make some good moves. But, he inherited the Big 3 starters, Ellsbury, Pedey and Ortiz. Did a good job of filling it out. We don't have the core pieces of a pitching staff. He seems incapable of identifying starting pitching. That will kill us regardess of how good the rest of the team is. Not to mention. What's his theory on power arms in the pen? Seems to be working for damn near every good team. Why the F aren't we doing it? Oh, we're wicked smaht and don't need to pay attention to what is going on out there.
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Post by grandsalami on May 22, 2015 22:10:56 GMT -5
“@jcmccaffrey: Hanley left the game because he couldn’t grip the bat. Will be checked again tomorrow.”
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on May 22, 2015 22:12:43 GMT -5
Trade for a quality starter and this all ends. Kick Farrell's worst starter to the BP and move everyone else down a notch. That will resolve everything, regardless of the mathematicians take on our offense. The heck with trading for an elite starter. Why should the Sox decimate their farm system for a rental, especially when this team is more than 1 player short of being a serious threat to win anything important? I agree wholeheartedly that the Sox need a legit ace. I never bought this argument of the Orioles winning the division last year with mediocre pitching, so the Sox would be fine. First of all, the Orioles pitched a lot better than the Sox are doing now, and secondly, when the Sox won in 04 they had Schilling and Pedro, and when they won in 07 they had Beckett, and when they won in 13, Lester, who was a quasi ace pitched like an ace in the 2nd half of the season and in the post-season. The current Sox have nobody like that on their pitching staff now and nobody on the horizon who's likely to do that, although Rodriguez could be a front-line starter. No, the Sox need to swallow hard and try to make the best big investment they can make in a free agent starter. They might have to throw $200 million at Cueto, Zimmerman, or Price. Then they have to hope they get 4 or 5 strong years out of 7, and that one of the kids down the road becomes an ace around the time the contract starts becoming an albatross.The Sox didn't want to spend $150 million on Lester, so now if they want somebody of his quality or better, it will cost them a lot more. As for the offense, it's a friggin joke. They finally put themselves in a position to score double digits in runs, yet they only scored 5 runs. Stupid baserunning/coaching and terrible hitting in the clutch - how do you load the bases with no outs and fail to score? How do the Red Sox continue to hit like crap with runners on? While there are definite truths in lousy BABIP luck and lousy pitching luck with FIPs better than ERAs, at some point, you get sick of hearing it. With so many stats available, the only one that really, really matters is winning percentage, which is a very simple stat. That's the bottom line. Everything else pales in comparison. When the Sox are finding ways to win, you don't hear about good luck with BABIP or runners in scoring position, etc. You concentrate on enjoying how the Sox win, and you feel confident that they'll find a way to win no matter what. With this group, you feel they'll find a way to lose no matter what. You have to wonder if the players themselves sense this just like they seemed to sense they'd win in 2013 ("The movie has already been written. Just push play" - Gomes and Salty say to Peavy upon his arrival). I got nailed for saying the Sox were digging themselves a little hole awhile back. They're still digging. There is a lot of time to turn things around, and they're only 4.5 games out, and the division is weak, but when the Sox had a chance to reach .500 at Fenway, they started losing again. There is something that can't be measured in stats, that seems off with this team. This team is capable of winning 85 - 90 games like they did in the 1988 and 1990 seasons and sneaking away with a division title, but given the way they smell this year, it's just as likely they'll wind up losing 90 games and finishing last again. Oh, they will. If our FO has proven anything, it is that they are reactive. After this abomination of a season is over, Ben will be fired and, after losing Lester - who only helped win us 2 titles, they'll pay more for another. Actually, probably others given their penchant to overreact.
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Post by grandsalami on May 22, 2015 22:18:23 GMT -5
The heck with trading for an elite starter. Why should the Sox decimate their farm system for a rental, especially when this team is more than 1 player short of being a serious threat to win anything important? I agree wholeheartedly that the Sox need a legit ace. I never bought this argument of the Orioles winning the division last year with mediocre pitching, so the Sox would be fine. First of all, the Orioles pitched a lot better than the Sox are doing now, and secondly, when the Sox won in 04 they had Schilling and Pedro, and when they won in 07 they had Beckett, and when they won in 13, Lester, who was a quasi ace pitched like an ace in the 2nd half of the season and in the post-season. The current Sox have nobody like that on their pitching staff now and nobody on the horizon who's likely to do that, although Rodriguez could be a front-line starter. No, the Sox need to swallow hard and try to make the best big investment they can make in a free agent starter. They might have to throw $200 million at Cueto, Zimmerman, or Price. Then they have to hope they get 4 or 5 strong years out of 7, and that one of the kids down the road becomes an ace around the time the contract starts becoming an albatross.The Sox didn't want to spend $150 million on Lester, so now if they want somebody of his quality or better, it will cost them a lot more. As for the offense, it's a friggin joke. They finally put themselves in a position to score double digits in runs, yet they only scored 5 runs. Stupid baserunning/coaching and terrible hitting in the clutch - how do you load the bases with no outs and fail to score? How do the Red Sox continue to hit like crap with runners on? While there are definite truths in lousy BABIP luck and lousy pitching luck with FIPs better than ERAs, at some point, you get sick of hearing it. With so many stats available, the only one that really, really matters is winning percentage, which is a very simple stat. That's the bottom line. Everything else pales in comparison. When the Sox are finding ways to win, you don't hear about good luck with BABIP or runners in scoring position, etc. You concentrate on enjoying how the Sox win, and you feel confident that they'll find a way to win no matter what. With this group, you feel they'll find a way to lose no matter what. You have to wonder if the players themselves sense this just like they seemed to sense they'd win in 2013 ("The movie has already been written. Just push play" - Gomes and Salty say to Peavy upon his arrival). I got nailed for saying the Sox were digging themselves a little hole awhile back. They're still digging. There is a lot of time to turn things around, and they're only 4.5 games out, and the division is weak, but when the Sox had a chance to reach .500 at Fenway, they started losing again. There is something that can't be measured in stats, that seems off with this team. This team is capable of winning 85 - 90 games like they did in the 1988 and 1990 seasons and sneaking away with a division title, but given the way they smell this year, it's just as likely they'll wind up losing 90 games and finishing last again. Oh, they will. If our FO has proven anything, it is that they are reactive. After this abomination of a season is over, Ben will be fired and, after losing Lester - who only helped win us 2 titles, they'll pay more for another. Actually, probably others given their penchant to overreact. You are wrong
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 22, 2015 22:22:26 GMT -5
The heck with trading for an elite starter. Why should the Sox decimate their farm system for a rental, especially when this team is more than 1 player short of being a serious threat to win anything important? I agree wholeheartedly that the Sox need a legit ace. I never bought this argument of the Orioles winning the division last year with mediocre pitching, so the Sox would be fine. First of all, the Orioles pitched a lot better than the Sox are doing now, and secondly, when the Sox won in 04 they had Schilling and Pedro, and when they won in 07 they had Beckett, and when they won in 13, Lester, who was a quasi ace pitched like an ace in the 2nd half of the season and in the post-season. The current Sox have nobody like that on their pitching staff now and nobody on the horizon who's likely to do that, although Rodriguez could be a front-line starter. No, the Sox need to swallow hard and try to make the best big investment they can make in a free agent starter. They might have to throw $200 million at Cueto, Zimmerman, or Price. Then they have to hope they get 4 or 5 strong years out of 7, and that one of the kids down the road becomes an ace around the time the contract starts becoming an albatross.The Sox didn't want to spend $150 million on Lester, so now if they want somebody of his quality or better, it will cost them a lot more. As for the offense, it's a friggin joke. They finally put themselves in a position to score double digits in runs, yet they only scored 5 runs. Stupid baserunning/coaching and terrible hitting in the clutch - how do you load the bases with no outs and fail to score? How do the Red Sox continue to hit like crap with runners on? While there are definite truths in lousy BABIP luck and lousy pitching luck with FIPs better than ERAs, at some point, you get sick of hearing it. With so many stats available, the only one that really, really matters is winning percentage, which is a very simple stat. That's the bottom line. Everything else pales in comparison. When the Sox are finding ways to win, you don't hear about good luck with BABIP or runners in scoring position, etc. You concentrate on enjoying how the Sox win, and you feel confident that they'll find a way to win no matter what. With this group, you feel they'll find a way to lose no matter what. You have to wonder if the players themselves sense this just like they seemed to sense they'd win in 2013 ("The movie has already been written. Just push play" - Gomes and Salty say to Peavy upon his arrival). I got nailed for saying the Sox were digging themselves a little hole awhile back. They're still digging. There is a lot of time to turn things around, and they're only 4.5 games out, and the division is weak, but when the Sox had a chance to reach .500 at Fenway, they started losing again. There is something that can't be measured in stats, that seems off with this team. This team is capable of winning 85 - 90 games like they did in the 1988 and 1990 seasons and sneaking away with a division title, but given the way they smell this year, it's just as likely they'll wind up losing 90 games and finishing last again. Oh, they will. If our FO has proven anything, it is that they are reactive. After this abomination of a season is over, Ben will be fired and, after losing Lester - who only helped win us 2 titles, they'll pay more for another. Actually, probably others given their penchant to overreact. Hopefully he takes Farrel with him. Awful, awful manager. No way Lester is worth that deal. I'd rather over-pay for Cueto.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on May 22, 2015 22:22:30 GMT -5
I would bet you anything that I am not. Anything.
They will overreact, they will pay more than if they just paid Lester. They will likely overpay more than one.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 22, 2015 22:24:05 GMT -5
I would bet you anything that I am not. Anything. They will overreact, they will pay more than if they just paid Lester. They will likely overpay more than one. Really depends on the situation as they already have a 200mil payroll. If they can fire sale some players and save money then I'm sure they will.
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on May 22, 2015 22:28:06 GMT -5
Oh, they will. If our FO has proven anything, it is that they are reactive. After this abomination of a season is over, Ben will be fired and, after losing Lester - who only helped win us 2 titles, they'll pay more for another. Actually, probably others given their penchant to overreact. Hopefully he takes Farrel with him. Awful, awful manager. No way Lester is worth that deal. I'd rather over-pay for Cueto. Sure, because if Theo taught us anything about the winning, it is that he's clueless. How do you rationalize that thought knowing Theo signed him and our GM paid $20+m for a terd?
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Post by grandsalami on May 22, 2015 22:30:34 GMT -5
Hopefully he takes Farrel with him. Awful, awful manager. No way Lester is worth that deal. I'd rather over-pay for Cueto. Sure, because if Theo taught us anything about the winning, it is that he's clueless. How do you rationalize that thought knowing Theo signed him and our GM paid $20+m for a terd? Lester is not worth his contract. Do you remember the time where we were wondering if his option was going to be picked up??
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TX
Veteran
Posts: 265
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Post by TX on May 22, 2015 22:36:51 GMT -5
Well, I kinda agree with that because Lester took an awful lot of time off while on the roster. But the fact remains, when all-in was warranted he was one of the best pitchers in the game. That's what Theo signed, and that's what not a single Ben starter has the ability to deliver. He was worth it, in my book.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 22, 2015 22:51:20 GMT -5
Sure, because if Theo taught us anything about the winning, it is that he's clueless. How do you rationalize that thought knowing Theo signed him and our GM paid $20+m for a terd? Lester is not worth his contract. Do you remember the time where we were wondering if his option was going to be picked up?? How do you really know Lester is not worth is contract? Or at least the majority of it? Let's face. You sign a guy to a 6 year $150 million deal, you're probably not going to get that full investment worth. However, if he's good for the majority of the deal and he helps you win, then it's not a bad investment. Who's to say that Lester won't be a very good workhorse of a pitcher over the next 4 to 5 years? Not all pitchers fall off the cliff at age 30. A lot do, but not all. Right now the Sox are paying $20 million for Porcello and he's not as good as Lester. I get the age difference, etc, but he's really not as good as Lester is. He just isn't. Hell, we don't even really need to compare them. Porcello's signing has nothing to do with Lester. The only thing I agree with you is that the Sox won't make that huge investment in a pitcher this offseason. But that isn't going to make it easier for them to win, and you'll spend next season wishing that Kelly will take the step forward or hoping that Porcello improves or that Rodriguez is better than advertised, etc. A lot of wishing and hoping. Makes me pine for the days when the Sox had Clemens or Pedro or a Tiant like pitcher or even Lester or 2007 Beckett. I remember watching the Sox have a similar type lack of a true ace type quality pitch staff in the early 80s, and until Clemens came along, the Sox won nothing.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on May 22, 2015 22:58:45 GMT -5
This roster is loaded with offensive firepower. They're just underperforming. I don't think you blame the GM for that. He made a roster that should be great offensively.
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Post by grandsalami on May 22, 2015 23:00:11 GMT -5
This roster is loaded with offensive firepower. They're just underperforming. I don't think you blame the GM for that. He made a roster that should be great offensively.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 22, 2015 23:03:46 GMT -5
Damn... I watched the early part of the game - Napoli's HR, and the bases-loaded double from Holt. Walked away to start prepping a little dinner, and peeked in to then see Holt tag himself instead of Trout. That is an improvement from last night in that he did slap the tag on someone.
Stepped away again and next thing I new it was 9-3! Nice that they scored a few runs, but the pitching gave it up again. Maybe they're about to get it all in sync? Or is that too much to hope for?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 22, 2015 23:13:37 GMT -5
This roster is loaded with offensive firepower. They're just underperforming. I don't think you blame the GM for that. He made a roster that should be great offensively. I think a lot of it is timing in two respects: 1) The Sox are terrible at sequencing their hits, seem to play station to station baseball, are awful at hitting with runners in scoring position, and can be quite stupid on the basepaths. 2) A different type of timing nobody has brought up yet. Look at the lineup. Really look at it. Ortiz is past his prime and won't be the guy he was in 2013. Napoli might very well be toward the end himself. It wouldn't surprise me if he hit .220 this year. I know BA doesn't matter, but the lower his BA, the lower his OBP. Pedroia is on the back 9 of his career. Hanley has seen his better days, although, like Pedroia, and to an extent Ortiz, is quite productive still - when healthy. Sandoval has already had his best season, but he's still reasonably productive although he has been in decline the past few years as well. Now contrast that with Bogaerts, Betts, Castillo, and Swihart. All four of those guys are at the beginnings of their careers although Castillo should be closer to his prime than the other three given his age. Betts obviously has tremendous tools, and it looks like a matter of time with him, but his OBP right now is inadequate for a leadoff man, but I have a lot of faith in him. Bogaerts is worrying me with his soft contact, but given his natural talent, I still think the guy who had us drooling late in 2013 and early 2014 is still in there. It's going to take longer than we wanted to for him to find it. Castillo's time is now. Between the nagging injuries and the Sox looking for an excuse not to start him on Opening Day, he has lost some valuable time. I think he should be reasonably productive. Certainly better than Victorino and Nava and better offensively than Bradley, who hasn't hit in an extended trial. Swihart is being force fed into the majors due to circumstance. He'll have better offensive days ahead of him, obviously. So what you have is five guys who are beginning to exit or have exited their prime and four guys who are not the players yet they could or should be. That means this lineup was never going to be a juggernaut, although it could still be productive, but none of these guys are at the peak of their careers. In time, maybe 2016 or 2017, Betts and Bogaerts could very well be all-stars and Swihart could blossom into a top notch catcher. Maybe by then Moncada becomes one of those guys who is great out of the chute. Then with Margot and Devers on the horizon (if they aren't dealt), the Sox have the makings of a potentially potent lineup of guys just about to hit their prime to go with guys hitting their peaks, or at least a big core of players on the upside of their bell shaped career curve.
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Post by redsox4242 on May 23, 2015 0:33:55 GMT -5
Let's please not forget this terrible bullpen, it is one of the worst in baseball. That bullpen has to be addressed!
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Post by mgoetze on May 23, 2015 4:55:33 GMT -5
Good Start, Porcello has really turned a corner here. Isn't it nice that you can tell exactly how good a pitcher currently is by watching him pitch for one inning?
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Post by jimed14 on May 23, 2015 8:38:21 GMT -5
This roster is loaded with offensive firepower. They're just underperforming. So are these game threads.
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Post by Smittyw on May 23, 2015 9:00:31 GMT -5
With lefties starting for LAA tonight and tomorrow, what's the over/under on Red Sox runs the rest of the weekend? I'm going with two.
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Post by jimed14 on May 23, 2015 9:01:44 GMT -5
Trade for a quality starter and this all ends. Kick Farrell's worst starter to the BP and move everyone else down a notch. That will resolve everything, regardless of the mathematicians take on our offense. They had 8 straight quality starts before last night and you're still blaming the pitching for the lack of hitting? I was going to write more, but that's enough.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on May 23, 2015 9:46:23 GMT -5
We should all be happy that we hit last night, because that was our first really bad pitching performance in a while. If we keep hitting, well win games. Bogaerts is also making hard contact still. His first AB was better than his hit. I really think he's on the brink of breaking out.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,404
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Post by radiohix on May 23, 2015 9:56:15 GMT -5
Thee worst part of all this is that this team is overachieving! Considering their Run differential (worst in the AL), they should have a worst record! They're not even doing "the little things" well: They're bad on defense, at running the bases... I've never been frustrated with a team like this 2015 abomination in years!
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 23, 2015 10:05:15 GMT -5
Instead of blocking specific posters, can I just block gameday threads?
I don't know what's wrong with this team and I don't believe anyone who claims that they do know.
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Post by jimed14 on May 23, 2015 10:26:35 GMT -5
Thee worst part of all this is that this team is overachieving! Considering their Run differential (worst in the AL), they should have a worst record! They're not even doing "the little things" well: They're bad on defense, at running the bases... I've never been frustrated with a team like this 2015 abomination in years! Run differential is just slightly more meaningful than RBIs and ERA.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on May 23, 2015 10:51:23 GMT -5
What a happy group we make!
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