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Post by mgoetze on Jun 7, 2015 12:34:56 GMT -5
There is ZERO evidence that the Yankees weren't going to up their offer over and over again until we bowed out. I mean, really, you just keep making it sound more attractive.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 7, 2015 12:41:18 GMT -5
There is ZERO evidence that the Yankees weren't going to up their offer over and over again until we bowed out. I mean, really, you just keep making it sound more attractive. For all we know, that could have happened.
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Post by moonstone2 on Jun 7, 2015 12:57:20 GMT -5
You guys realize Headley hasn't hit all that much better than Sandoval, and has fielded worse, right? Headley over Sandoval wasn't the answer. He would have cost less and wouldn't have cost a pick, No probably not THE answer but he was a better one.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jun 7, 2015 15:52:31 GMT -5
Clearly the thing that will ultimately save the Red Sox is choosing Tommy Layne over Drake Britton.
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Post by p23w on Jun 7, 2015 16:04:17 GMT -5
Clearly the thing that will ultimately save the Red Sox is choosing Tommy Layne over Drake Britton. Clearly Tommy Layne has not been part of the problem this year, to date.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 7, 2015 17:06:01 GMT -5
Well the Sox showed today what will fix the team: seven runs a game and strong relief pitching. Then, no worries.
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Post by jmei on Jun 7, 2015 17:15:50 GMT -5
I moved the Sandoval stuff to the throwdown subforum. Let's keep it there. Thanks.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 7, 2015 17:55:58 GMT -5
With the 'Kelly or Wright' debate - my vote is for Johnson.
Wright showed today how valuable he can be from the pen and for this team to be ultra competitive it could really use one more plus starter. I don't know if Johnson is the answer, but it's better to find out now rather than wait until the trade deadline. He looks ready (by the numbers) and it could save a few prospects.
Then trade Kelly and a good prospect for Chapman (trade Breslow for cash) and suddenly the weak pitching staff is the team's strength.
If Johnson isn't the answer then you can always go back to Kelly/Wright or focus on Cueto/Hamels
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 7, 2015 18:00:14 GMT -5
I don't think it would be safe to assume Johnson to be better than Kelly personally.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 7, 2015 18:04:39 GMT -5
An update to the "how bad has the luck been?" study ... if you've watched the games, you know they've had good luck on infield hits, and that reduces the bad luck on balls in play to 3 wins, roughly. Xander has had 6 more infield hits than predicted by my regression model, but that model explains a lot less of IFH% (r = .40) than the overall BABIP model explained its variable, so a couple of those 6 hits may have been skill, not luck.
More in the future ...
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 7, 2015 18:15:56 GMT -5
I don't think it would be safe to assume Johnson to be better than Kelly personally. No assumptions here. I would just like to find out. With Kelly, I don't think there's any chance he suddenly turns it around mid season. Maybe a solid 5 with potential improvement in 2016, but I can't imagine it would happen any sooner.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 7, 2015 22:30:40 GMT -5
I don't think it would be safe to assume Johnson to be better than Kelly personally. No assumptions here. I would just like to find out. With Kelly, I don't think there's any chance he suddenly turns it around mid season. Maybe a solid 5 with potential improvement in 2016, but I can't imagine it would happen any sooner. He has a 100 xFIP- this year, which ranks 61st out of 146 MLB starters with 30 IP or more. That's already a #3 near the 3/4 borderline. First 6 starts, 3.93 xFIP, 3.95 SIERA, 6.35 ERA. Subsequent 5 starts: 3.90 xFIP, 4.05 SIERA, 4.15 ERA. There's a reason why people look at xFIP and SIERA to project pitchers going forwards, rather than ERA. And a reason why they left him in the rotation and made Wright the long man.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 8, 2015 5:30:50 GMT -5
He has a 100 xFIP- this year, which ranks 61st out of 146 MLB starters with 30 IP or more. That's already a #3 near the 3/4 borderline. First 6 starts, 3.93 xFIP, 3.95 SIERA, 6.35 ERA. Subsequent 5 starts: 3.90 xFIP, 4.05 SIERA, 4.15 ERA. There's a reason why people look at xFIP and SIERA to project pitchers going forwards, rather than ERA. And a reason why they left him in the rotation and made Wright the long man. I guess we can look for his HR and LOB% to regress back towards his career norms and can understand why you would like to keep him in the rotation a bit longer. But I still hope to see Johnson up within the next few weeks - so we can see multiple starts prior to any trade decisions. In lieu of injury, what SP would you drop from the rotation for either Johnson or a trade candidate? Miley? Outside of a SP our power lefty reliever, I don't see much room for trade candidates on this team as I don't see Papi getting DFAd and I'm not sure what to think of Napoli.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 8, 2015 6:28:50 GMT -5
They aren't going to manufacture a chance for Johnson to join the rotation. The rotation is just fine right now.
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Post by okin15 on Jun 8, 2015 9:05:55 GMT -5
They aren't going to manufacture a chance for Johnson to join the rotation. The rotation is just fine right now. If by "just fine" you mean middling, then yes. I'm not saying Johnson would help, but they're at least a great pitcher away from having a good rotation. Their hitting needs to stay good for them to have any chance. It's the only hope... Obi-wan style.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jun 8, 2015 10:13:32 GMT -5
Johnson has such a good record because he has superior command and control, not because he has outstanding stuff. Kelly has outstanding stuff but inconsistent command and control.
My guess, and that is all that it is, is that Johnson will be a good major league pitcher, fourth or fifth in the rotation, but that Kelly could be an ace if he harnesses his command and control.
I think it makes sense to stick with Kelly as long as reasonable. However, I also think it makes sense to take a look at Johnson at an opportune time. It won't hurt anyone to give the other starters an extra day of rest to create an opening for Johnson.
If he did well, it sure would increase the options, and opportunities, for the Sox at trade deadline time.
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Post by prangerx on Jun 8, 2015 10:19:54 GMT -5
Wouldn't we be better off trading high on Johnson if he is a future back of the rotation guy?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 8, 2015 10:25:30 GMT -5
Johnson has such a good record because he has superior command and control, not because he has outstanding stuff. Kelly has outstanding stuff but inconsistent command and control. My guess, and that is all that it is, is that Johnson will be a good major league pitcher, fourth or fifth in the rotation, but that Kelly could be an ace if he harnesses his command and control. I think it makes sense to stick with Kelly as long as reasonable. However, I also think it makes sense to take a look at Johnson at an opportune time. It won't hurt anyone to give the other starters an extra day of rest to create an opening for Johnson. If he did well, it sure would increase the options, and opportunities, for the Sox at trade deadline time. I just don't get why they can't do both? Johnson has nothing left to prove in the minors. He is what he is. Now it's just a matter of seeing how he translates in the majors. Kelly on the other hand needs repetition and to focus on command and control. Why not send him down for a few weeks and see how Johnson and Kelly both look by the all star break? I don't think teams will value Johnson until he proves himself a bit at the ML level. Think Michael Bowden. He was great in the minors and Theo and the staff tried to unload him on someone, but couldn't. (Not saying Johnson is Michael Bowden)
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Post by okin15 on Jun 8, 2015 10:26:57 GMT -5
Wouldn't we be better off trading high on Johnson if he is a future back of the rotation guy? Yes, as long as you're sure. It all comes down to whether someone else sees him as a 3-4 rather than a 4-5... and whether they're right! (And also whether a need pops up later in the year and you've got nobody to plug in.)
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 8, 2015 10:39:23 GMT -5
I think the Red Sox should; DFA; Napoli, Call up Bryce Brentz to be the 4th Outfielder and Right handed hitter of the bench Napoli in the major leagues: .212/.316/.408 Brentz in Triple-A: .229/.307/.385
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Post by jrffam05 on Jun 8, 2015 11:14:16 GMT -5
I think the Red Sox should; DFA; Napoli, Call up Bryce Brentz to be the 4th Outfielder and Right handed hitter of the bench Napoli in the major leagues: .212/.316/.408 Brentz in Triple-A: .229/.307/.385 Well when you look at it that way.... Or any other way...
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 8, 2015 11:19:28 GMT -5
They aren't going to manufacture a chance for Johnson to join the rotation. The rotation is just fine right now. If by "just fine" you mean middling, then yes. I'm not saying Johnson would help, but they're at least a great pitcher away from having a good rotation. I take that as you are agreeing with me, unless you think Johnson is the great pitcher that we've been looking for.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 8, 2015 11:20:41 GMT -5
Wouldn't we be better off trading high on Johnson if he is a future back of the rotation guy? I don't think so. Have you seen how much starting pitching costs?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 8, 2015 11:54:52 GMT -5
Wouldn't we be better off trading high on Johnson if he is a future back of the rotation guy? No, because I think you're assuming that other teams don't know what he is or something. Teams aren't looking at stats when they make trades - everyone has scouts looking at everyone, and they have first-hand reports. I think you sell high on a guy like Chih-Hsien Chiang, who suddenly pops up and looks like he may have figured something out where teams won't have nearly as much data on the "new" version of that player. I'm still stunned they were able to deal him before he turned back into a pumpkin though - even that sort of deal is rare. And as mentioned above, a legit #4 or whatever is a very valuable piece of a major league team, especially if you control him for 6 years cheaply.
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Post by jmei on Jun 8, 2015 12:01:43 GMT -5
[I just don't get why they can't do both? Johnson has nothing left to prove in the minors. He is what he is. Now it's just a matter of seeing how he translates in the majors. Kelly on the other hand needs repetition and to focus on command and control. Why not send him down for a few weeks and see how Johnson and Kelly both look by the all star break? Because (a) they think (as do I) that Kelly is a better pitcher than Johnson and (b) three weeks in the minors is not going to help Kelly develop his command more than three weeks in the majors would.
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