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What Can Be Done to Fix the Sox?
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Post by rafael on Oct 28, 2015 22:08:25 GMT -5
I'm the only one in this board that likes Bartolo Colon as an offseason target? If he replicates his recent performance(he was worth at least 2.4 fWAR in each of the last five seasons) he would likely be a win better than our current #5. Also, he would come cheap in the FA market. I guess that a 1 year - 10M deal with incentives or a club option would be enough to sign him.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 28, 2015 23:00:20 GMT -5
I'm the only one in this board that likes Bartolo Colon as an offseason target? If he replicates his recent performance(he was worth at least 2.4 fWAR in each of the last five seasons) he would likely be a win better than our current #5. Also, he would come cheap in the FA market. I guess that a 1 year - 10M deal with incentives or a club option would be enough to sign him. He's 62 years old, shaped like a perfect cube, and would be moving from Citi/NL East to Fenway/AL East. This scenario is pretty well set up for a total collapse.
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Post by klostrophobic on Oct 28, 2015 23:37:51 GMT -5
Doesn't matter, Manfred wouldn't allow him to sign with an AL team on grounds that humanity would miss out of his at-bats as an NL pitcher.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 28, 2015 23:59:19 GMT -5
I'm the only one in this board that likes Bartolo Colon as an offseason target? If he replicates his recent performance(he was worth at least 2.4 fWAR in each of the last five seasons) he would likely be a win better than our current #5. Also, he would come cheap in the FA market. I guess that a 1 year - 10M deal with incentives or a club option would be enough to sign him. The Red Sox need a TOR starter. How does Colon qualify? They got plenty of guys for the middle to back half of the rotation. They don't need to spend $10 million to get another one. As it is, I wasn't too thrilled with Colon in 2008 when the Sox actually did have him. He could have been an asset in the post-season but either he got hurt or had other issues and the Sox had to go with Wakefield as the #4 starter (and he got pounded in Game 4 of the ALCS by TB).
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 29, 2015 6:48:31 GMT -5
I think there are still some bad feelings within the organization - particularly with Farrell - about how he basically ditched the team in 2008. I can't see it.
Interestingly, he profiles as the type of arm the team has had some success with in the bullpen. Fastball that's more about location and movement than velocity, limiting walks, not too afraid of the solo home run from time to time. Colon could be like a durable, fat, Dominican version of Koji. I just don't see it being with the Red Sox.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,838
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 29, 2015 7:19:00 GMT -5
I bet you guys won't be voting for Chris Christie! Colon is not a viable candidate for us. We, at least, need a solid #2......and he is no longer that.
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Post by rafael on Oct 29, 2015 7:37:21 GMT -5
I'm the only one in this board that likes Bartolo Colon as an offseason target? If he replicates his recent performance(he was worth at least 2.4 fWAR in each of the last five seasons) he would likely be a win better than our current #5. Also, he would come cheap in the FA market. I guess that a 1 year - 10M deal with incentives or a club option would be enough to sign him. The Red Sox need a TOR starter. How does Colon qualify? They got plenty of guys for the middle to back half of the rotation. They don't need to spend $10 million to get another one. As it is, I wasn't too thrilled with Colon in 2008 when the Sox actually did have him. He could have been an asset in the post-season but either he got hurt or had other issues and the Sox had to go with Wakefield as the #4 starter (and he got pounded in Game 4 of the ALCS by TB). The Red Sox do not need a top of the rotation starter, they need to improve the team in all possible ways. Acquiring an established TOR pitcher this offseason would probably be counterproductive in the long-term, as it would require trading multiple top prospects or signing a contract that most likely will clog the payroll at some point while losing the 12th pick on the draft, depending on the pitcher. The best option is to sign or trade (most likely) for a pitcher who is mid-rotation nowadays with the potential to be something more, but if no pitcher that fits that description is available, go for a pitcher with a decent track record who will eat innings at a bargain price. IMO, Colon moving to the AL won't be followed by a disaster. He has been above average or average both in FIP- and xFIP- for the aforementioned past seasons and his %GB rates are decent. His age is obviously a concern, but we have the depth (Kelly, Owens, Johnson) to replace him if he is toast. I get why people don't like Colon: he has kind of a bad history in Boston, he's in his forties, is the unsexiest player in baseball and doesn't have much upside. However, I think he is a good fallback option to improve the rotation this offseason.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 29, 2015 7:53:44 GMT -5
The Red Sox need a TOR starter. How does Colon qualify? They got plenty of guys for the middle to back half of the rotation. They don't need to spend $10 million to get another one. As it is, I wasn't too thrilled with Colon in 2008 when the Sox actually did have him. He could have been an asset in the post-season but either he got hurt or had other issues and the Sox had to go with Wakefield as the #4 starter (and he got pounded in Game 4 of the ALCS by TB). The Red Sox do not need a top of the rotation starter, they need to improve the team in all possible ways. Acquiring an established TOR pitcher this offseason would probably be counterproductive in the long-term, as it would require trading multiple top prospects or signing a contract that most likely will clog the payroll at some point while losing the 12th pick on the draft, depending on the pitcher. The best option is to sign or trade (most likely) for a pitcher who is mid-rotation nowadays with the potential to be something more, but if no pitcher that fits that description is available, go for a pitcher with a decent track record who will eat innings at a bargain price. IMO, Colon moving to the AL won't be followed by a disaster. He has been above average or average both in FIP- and xFIP- for the aforementioned past seasons and his %GB rates are decent. His age is obviously a concern, but we have the depth (Kelly, Owens, Johnson) to replace him if he is toast. I get why people don't like Colon: he has kind of a bad history in Boston, he's in his forties, is the unsexiest player in baseball and doesn't have much upside. However, I think he is a good fallback option to improve the rotation this offseason. Who would you bump from the rotation for him? I wouldn't want him over Buchholz, Porcello, Rodriguez, Miley, the new TOR guy, Owens, Hill, Kelly, Wright or Johnson.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 29, 2015 7:55:24 GMT -5
Gents, stop trying to make the acronym TOR for top-of-rotation a thing. It's not a thing.
I appreciate that people want a work-around from having the "He's an ace! He's not an ace! What's an ace?!" argument every time a pitcher is mentioned. I truly do. But don't.
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Post by kman22 on Oct 29, 2015 8:01:01 GMT -5
Gents, stop trying to make the acronym TOR for top-of-rotation a thing. It's not a thing. I appreciate that people want a work-around from having the "He's an ace! He's not an ace! What's an ace?!" argument every time a pitcher is mentioned. I truly do. But don't. Without context, it's like Toronto, which still works for David Price. Could this be a sign?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 29, 2015 8:28:22 GMT -5
Gents, stop trying to make the acronym TOR for top-of-rotation a thing. It's not a thing. I appreciate that people want a work-around from having the "He's an ace! He's not an ace! What's an ace?!" argument every time a pitcher is mentioned. I truly do. But don't. TOR is such an opinionated term. It's a perception. IMO there are probably only a dozen or so in the league. Then there is the popular #1 distinction. Every team has one just by default. We have one. There are just better #1's than others. Does TOR = ace?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 29, 2015 8:30:49 GMT -5
Seriously, every time I read "TOR" I think for a second you guys want to trade for a Blue Jays starter.
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Post by notguilty on Oct 29, 2015 8:38:49 GMT -5
Speaking of Toronto; quite ironic that Anthopoulos is leaving apparently because the incoming President (Shapiro) wasn't pleased with his trading (nearly) all the prospects; in Boston Cherington got fired (ok, "left") -partly- because he wouldn't trade enough of them. Heh.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 29, 2015 9:06:38 GMT -5
Speaking of Toronto; quite ironic that Anthopoulos is leaving apparently because the incoming President (Shapiro) wasn't pleased with his trading (nearly) all the prospects; in Boston Cherington got fired (ok, "left") -partly- because he wouldn't trade enough of them. Heh. I'm sure DD will hire AA in an "advisory" role or maybe as bullpen coach.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on Oct 29, 2015 9:23:19 GMT -5
Looking at Alex Gordon's spray chart, it doesn't look like he uses the opposite field much. The majority of his balls to the opposite fields were fly balls, probably of the weak variety. Maybe the monster could buy him some extra cheap hits or doubles. Fenway's RF is spacious, but KC is a pitchers park too and Gordon is more of a gap hitter than a true slugger.
If he's really willing to settle for a 4 year deal (age 32-36), I think that's a pretty reasonable move to make, depending on the expected value of our pick. Our pick is still pretty high despite not being protected, so if the draft looks deep it could be a pretty big price to pay for signing a FA with a QO.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 29, 2015 9:29:58 GMT -5
The Red Sox need a TOR starter. How does Colon qualify? They got plenty of guys for the middle to back half of the rotation. They don't need to spend $10 million to get another one. As it is, I wasn't too thrilled with Colon in 2008 when the Sox actually did have him. He could have been an asset in the post-season but either he got hurt or had other issues and the Sox had to go with Wakefield as the #4 starter (and he got pounded in Game 4 of the ALCS by TB). The Red Sox do not need a top of the rotation starter, they need to improve the team in all possible ways. Acquiring an established TOR pitcher this offseason would probably be counterproductive in the long-term, as it would require trading multiple top prospects or signing a contract that most likely will clog the payroll at some point while losing the 12th pick on the draft, depending on the pitcher. The best option is to sign or trade (most likely) for a pitcher who is mid-rotation nowadays with the potential to be something more, but if no pitcher that fits that description is available, go for a pitcher with a decent track record who will eat innings at a bargain price. IMO, Colon moving to the AL won't be followed by a disaster. He has been above average or average both in FIP- and xFIP- for the aforementioned past seasons and his %GB rates are decent. His age is obviously a concern, but we have the depth (Kelly, Owens, Johnson) to replace him if he is toast. I get why people don't like Colon: he has kind of a bad history in Boston, he's in his forties, is the unsexiest player in baseball and doesn't have much upside. However, I think he is a good fallback option to improve the rotation this offseason. Didn't they already do that with Joe Kelly, though? At some point you need more certainty. The Red Sox don't need another season of having a rotation that works on a wing and a prayer. I get the whole "invest in a future ace" thing, and if the Sox are smart enough and lucky enough to uncover the next Jake Arrietta, then great! But until you still need somebody that's reliable that can give them 200 plus innings - my argument for signing Jon Lester last offseason. The Red Sox already have two guys who can soak up innings and provide quantity if not quality in Miley and Porcello. What is Colon, who is in his 40s and likely in for a dramatic decline sooner or later, going to bring that Miley and Porcello can't give them? The Sox have an up and comer in Rodriguez, and an investment/gamble in Joe Kelly. They have a quasi-ace who also sometimes doubles as a batting practice pitcher when he's coming off an injury, which is often the case with Buchholz, and they have another guy that could probably give them what Colon could give them, but for a lot cheaper in Steven Wright. And there is Owens honing his craft in AAA, and Johnson coming off an injury. The Sox need to add somebody that will lead the staff - give them quantity and quality. They got middle to bottom of the rotation guys in spades. Dombrowski has already stated as much and he's right. Colon would just be another waste of precious resources to that already overcrowded pile. You can make the "is he (Lester or even Gray) an ace" semantics argument or revert to the workaround TOR acronym, for top of the rotation starter, which to me, means a guy that is either a 1 or a 2. And yeah, I though TOR meant David Price, a Toronto pitcher. It took a little while before I caught on... But the fact is that the Sox had very little in the way of solid #1/#2 type performances last year. That needs to be rectified. They need a guy that will give them 200 plus innings with well above performance. That is something they really didn't have for long (as soon as Buchholz started pitching like an ace - typical Buccholz, he got hurt), and that kind of thing can really impact the bullpen.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 29, 2015 9:43:34 GMT -5
The Red Sox do not need a top of the rotation starter, they need to improve the team in all possible ways. Acquiring an established TOR pitcher this offseason would probably be counterproductive in the long-term, as it would require trading multiple top prospects or signing a contract that most likely will clog the payroll at some point while losing the 12th pick on the draft, depending on the pitcher. The best option is to sign or trade (most likely) for a pitcher who is mid-rotation nowadays with the potential to be something more, but if no pitcher that fits that description is available, go for a pitcher with a decent track record who will eat innings at a bargain price. IMO, Colon moving to the AL won't be followed by a disaster. He has been above average or average both in FIP- and xFIP- for the aforementioned past seasons and his %GB rates are decent. His age is obviously a concern, but we have the depth (Kelly, Owens, Johnson) to replace him if he is toast. I get why people don't like Colon: he has kind of a bad history in Boston, he's in his forties, is the unsexiest player in baseball and doesn't have much upside. However, I think he is a good fallback option to improve the rotation this offseason. Didn't they already do that with Joe Kelly, though? At some point you need more certainty. The Red Sox don't need another season of having a rotation that works on a wing and a prayer. I get the whole "invest in a future ace" thing, and if the Sox are smart enough and lucky enough to uncover the next Jake Arrietta, then great! But until you still need somebody that's reliable that can give them 200 plus innings - my argument for signing Jon Lester last offseason. The Red Sox already have two guys who can soak up innings and provide quantity if not quality in Miley and Porcello. What is Colon, who is in his 40s and likely in for a dramatic decline sooner or later, going to bring that Miley and Porcello can't give them? The Sox have an up and comer in Rodriguez, and an investment/gamble in Joe Kelly. They have a quasi-ace who also sometimes doubles as a batting practice pitcher when he's coming off an injury, which is often the case with Buchholz, and they have another guy that could probably give them what Colon could give them, but for a lot cheaper in Steven Wright. And there is Owens honing his craft in AAA, and Johnson coming off an injury. The Sox need to add somebody that will lead the staff - give them quantity and quality. They got middle to bottom of the rotation guys in spades. Dombrowski has already stated as much and he's right. Colon would just be another waste of precious resources to that already overcrowded pile. You can make the "is he (Lester or even Gray) an ace" semantics argument or revert to the workaround TOR acronym, for top of the rotation starter, which to me, means a guy that is either a 1 or a 2. And yeah, I though TOR meant David Price, a Toronto pitcher. It took a little while before I caught on... But the fact is that the Sox had very little in the way of solid #1/#2 type performances last year. That needs to be rectified. They need a guy that will give them 200 plus innings with well above performance. That is something they really didn't have for long (as soon as Buchholz started pitching like an ace - typical Buccholz, he got hurt), and that kind of thing can really impact the bullpen. I agree on the need for a front line guy, but with our current OF defense, that makes ALL our SP better....I know the 2nd half could have been a fluke, but it seemed like every one of our starters pitched with more confidence knowing they didn't have to strike everyone out due to our overall defense, including Napoli & Panda (he did improve in the 2nd half).
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Post by michael on Oct 29, 2015 11:30:48 GMT -5
Years ago when asked about Sox pitching outlook in the upcoming season, Jimy sed"if we catch the ball and throw the ball, the pitching will improve "
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 29, 2015 14:15:12 GMT -5
I'm a HUGE Alex Gordon fan. An OF of Gordon-Betts-JBJ makes me drool.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 29, 2015 16:12:03 GMT -5
I'm a HUGE Alex Gordon fan. An OF of Gordon-Betts-JBJ makes me drool. Wonder how you would have reacted to a 1970s OF of Rice, Lynn, and Evans or a late 60s outfield of Yaz, Smith, and Conigliaro.
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Post by grandsalami on Oct 29, 2015 23:35:17 GMT -5
Sherman also takes a crack at assessing the in-season changes to the future free agent market of Mets outfielder Yoenis Cespedes. The Red Sox offered him a five-year deal at about $75MM when he was with the club, says Sherman, and might have considered going to the Hunter Pence range (5/$90MM
Mlbtr
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,501
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Post by nomar on Oct 30, 2015 7:03:31 GMT -5
Cespedes interests me too. He changed his batted ball profile pretty significantly and for the better, and the results showed. He's younger than Gordon too. At the same time, his floor is lower and he didn't set the world on fire here in his brief tenure in Boston. No pick compensation
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 9,015
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Post by ericmvan on Oct 30, 2015 7:09:52 GMT -5
The Red Sox do not need a top of the rotation starter, they need to improve the team in all possible ways. Acquiring an established TOR pitcher this offseason would probably be counterproductive in the long-term, as it would require trading multiple top prospects or signing a contract that most likely will clog the payroll at some point while losing the 12th pick on the draft, depending on the pitcher. The best option is to sign or trade (most likely) for a pitcher who is mid-rotation nowadays with the potential to be something more, but if no pitcher that fits that description is available, go for a pitcher with a decent track record who will eat innings at a bargain price. IMO, Colon moving to the AL won't be followed by a disaster. He has been above average or average both in FIP- and xFIP- for the aforementioned past seasons and his %GB rates are decent. His age is obviously a concern, but we have the depth (Kelly, Owens, Johnson) to replace him if he is toast. I get why people don't like Colon: he has kind of a bad history in Boston, he's in his forties, is the unsexiest player in baseball and doesn't have much upside. However, I think he is a good fallback option to improve the rotation this offseason. Didn't they already do that with Joe Kelly, though? Not really. They had a team that was interested in Lackey at the deadline, and were offered a pitcher they liked. This winter's plan would be to evaluate every pitcher in MLB, with all the scouting and sabermetric tools in the world, and target the guy with the best chance of blossoming -- "the next Max Scherzer" to use the standard formulation. There's a world of difference between taking a flyer on one of about 25 MLB starters with upside (just a rough guess) and lazering in on the one, two or three guys you are highest on.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 30, 2015 8:41:10 GMT -5
Since Papi made his quota to earn him this extension, why not rest him more against the tough lefties & have Hanley DH those days....It seems as if Ortiz really dragged to the finish line this year...imagine if we made the postseason, he would have been out of gas. If we are striving for the playoffs next year (which I assume we are) Hanley would be more valuable to have him DH 50 or so games & play 1st along with Shaw. Give Travis the whole year in AAA. He comes up for good 2017, & move Hanley to DH then.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 30, 2015 9:23:41 GMT -5
It seems as if Ortiz really dragged to the finish line this year...imagine if we made the postseason, he would have been out of gas. In September/October, Ortiz hit .300/.381/.689. In his final seven games of the season he hit .476/.522/1.048, which is so ridiculous that I had to make sure the columns weren't accidentally shifted and I was posting his OBP/SLG/OPS. So no, he didn't. EDIT: Ortiz's .701 slugging percentage in the second half was the best in baseball. Not only did he not drag down the stretch, he was playing some of the best baseball of his career.
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