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8/4-8/6 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,793
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Post by nomar on Aug 6, 2015 20:46:30 GMT -5
Betances is impressive as hell
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Post by ethanbein on Aug 6, 2015 20:51:17 GMT -5
The guy was still pumping easy heat into the 7th inning - 95 to 97. He did make the mistake to Ellsbury. That was all about location. But the slider he just got ARod on was a killer. Consider it on the job training. These guys need to pitch in those situations, I believe. Disagree - this "situation" (pitching the 4th time through the order in a medium+ leverage game situation) is one that is dying out in baseball, at least with managers that aren't stuck in the 20th century. Since he should never be asked to do it at any point in his career, there is no need to practice it. He's probably not good enough to keep in there the 4th time through the order, I agree, but if he's going to be in that situation, 3 Ks ain't bad.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 6, 2015 20:52:56 GMT -5
aren't pitchers supposed to come to a complete stop before they throw the pitch? I didn't see it once.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 6, 2015 20:54:27 GMT -5
Disagree - this "situation" (pitching the 4th time through the order in a medium+ leverage game situation) is one that is dying out in baseball, at least with managers that aren't stuck in the 20th century. Since he should never be asked to do it at any point in his career, there is no need to practice it. He's probably not good enough to keep in there the 4th time through the order, I agree, but if he's going to be in that situation, 3 Ks ain't bad. True enough, though ignoring the home run is just a bit too convenient. And because I can't stop myself, I have to pedantically point out that it was only the 3rd time he was pitching to A-Rod.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 6, 2015 21:00:02 GMT -5
Farrell's plan to conveniently push Travis Shaw's stats down by having him face the worst possible situation did not work.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Aug 6, 2015 21:00:47 GMT -5
The guy was still pumping easy heat into the 7th inning - 95 to 97. He did make the mistake to Ellsbury. That was all about location. But the slider he just got ARod on was a killer. Consider it on the job training. These guys need to pitch in those situations, I believe. Disagree - this "situation" (pitching the 4th time through the order in a medium+ leverage game situation) is one that is dying out in baseball, at least with managers that aren't stuck in the 20th century. Since he should never be asked to do it at any point in his career, there is no need to practice it. Yeah, but winning THIS game is less important than E-Rod's development. However, going forward, I would agree with you that I, too, would like to see the Red Sox experiment with some more innovative concepts in handling a pitching staff: 1. I would love to see them consider interleaving Stephen Wright on three days rest with the rest of the staff working on four days rest. I believe using knuckleball pitchers in shorter starts on shorter rest might be more effective giving the level of "feel" involved with this pitch (and I think Wright has a better knuckleball than Wakefield). This might also serve to disrupt other teams' timing (as I believe you have suggested) and to provide additional rest days to other starters. 2. I would love to see them convert Barnes and Kelly (and eventually Workman) into two (or more) inning relievers. Piggy-backing (as is done regularly in the minors) could be an effective way to increase the effectiveness of a pitching staff. 3. I would love to see them use the old Earl Weaver strategy of using young starters in middle relief initially.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,793
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Post by nomar on Aug 6, 2015 21:01:52 GMT -5
JBJ had a good little night.
Let's go Rusney
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 6, 2015 21:04:11 GMT -5
The guy was still pumping easy heat into the 7th inning - 95 to 97. He did make the mistake to Ellsbury. That was all about location. But the slider he just got ARod on was a killer. Consider it on the job training. These guys need to pitch in those situations, I believe. Disagree - this "situation" (pitching the 4th time through the order in a medium+ leverage game situation) is one that is dying out in baseball, at least with managers that aren't stuck in the 20th century. Since he should never be asked to do it at any point in his career, there is no need to practice it. Well we can agree to disagree then. His stuff was all working. He just needs to get it where it needs to be. Up and in the middle of the plate won't do it. It's not dying out. That's BS. He was right at 100 pitches. Guys do that all the time, and he still had his good fastball and slider.
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 6, 2015 21:10:51 GMT -5
It's not dying out. That's BS. Check how many times the Yankees and Rays have hooked their starters after exactly 27 batters faced this season. It's no coincidence, and there's good solid research backing it up.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 6, 2015 21:42:15 GMT -5
Linkage please
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Post by Guidas on Aug 6, 2015 21:46:21 GMT -5
If we're going to have another crappy season like this one I would rather beat the Yankees every time and lose every other game than to lose to them, especially when we had plenty of chances to win this one. No Mookie, no Pedroia, no pen, sure - but despite this they had their chances.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 6, 2015 22:00:45 GMT -5
Hate being the Yankees' doormat again, but this is the kind of loss I have been talking about. You can take something positive away from it. ERod pitched an excellent game in a tough ballpark against a tough lineup.
He's been a pitcher of extremes this season, but if his bad games aren't so brutal in the future, then he could definitely be a #2 type pitcher, and front of the rotation type starters are so valuable.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 6, 2015 22:07:03 GMT -5
One other thought. Most of us either weren't around or never saw Dick Stuart play for the Red Sox.
If we did, he would resemble the 1b version of what Hanley Ramirez the LF has been this year.
Stuart didn't give a crap about defense. He wanted to do one thing and one thing only, hit home runs.
I think Hanley has the same mindset. I think everything about him this year is geared toward hitting home runs and nothing else. He sculpted his body to hit home runs. Meanwhile he stopped being patient at the plate, and his defense in LF is every bit as brutal as Stuart's was at 1b.
I think for those who remember Stuart, Hanley is playing in a similar fashion, which is too bad, because he used to be a very good all around player.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Aug 6, 2015 22:08:35 GMT -5
I think the question of whether or not ERod should have pitched to the 28th batter, given that his pitch count was OK at that point, has to be answered taking into consideration the relief options available at that point of the game.
It's a story as old as the hills -- the team struggling in the bullpen will tend to push their starters a little more, especially when they are showing no obvious signs of performance deterioration.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 6, 2015 22:20:34 GMT -5
One other thought. Most of us either weren't around or never saw Dick Stuart play for the Red Sox. If we did, he would resemble the 1b version of what Hanley Ramirez the LF has been this year. Stuart didn't give a crap about defense. He wanted to do one thing and one thing only, hit home runs. I think Hanley has the same mindset. I think everything about him this year is geared toward hitting home runs and nothing else. He sculpted his body to hit home runs. Meanwhile he stopped being patient at the plate, and his defense in LF is every bit as brutal as Stuart's was at 1b. I think for those who remember Stuart, Hanley is playing in a similar fashion, which is too bad, because he used to be a very good all around player. Not long after I was old enough to drive, I took a group of teenagers to Cleveland from our home in Western New York to see a Red Sox-Cleveland doubleheader (the Sox won both games). The highlight for us was giving Dick Stuart a standing ovation for picking up a paper wrapper near first base. He stared at us for several seconds.
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Post by ethanbein on Aug 6, 2015 23:03:18 GMT -5
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dd
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Posts: 979
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Post by dd on Aug 6, 2015 23:10:29 GMT -5
One other thought. Most of us either weren't around or never saw Dick Stuart play for the Red Sox. If we did, he would resemble the 1b version of what Hanley Ramirez the LF has been this year. Stuart didn't give a crap about defense. He wanted to do one thing and one thing only, hit home runs. I think Hanley has the same mindset. I think everything about him this year is geared toward hitting home runs and nothing else. He sculpted his body to hit home runs. Meanwhile he stopped being patient at the plate, and his defense in LF is every bit as brutal as Stuart's was at 1b. I think for those who remember Stuart, Hanley is playing in a similar fashion, which is too bad, because he used to be a very good all around player. As I recall his nick name was Stone Fingers.
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Post by station13 on Aug 6, 2015 23:26:41 GMT -5
BTW, why has this team stop taking walks? Bogaerts, Hanley walks like 2% of their PA.
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Post by jmei on Aug 6, 2015 23:47:59 GMT -5
BTW, why has this team stop taking walks? Bogaerts, Hanley walks like 2% of their PA. This is just me being ranty, but it's starting to seem like every year this front office overreacts to the previous year's bad trends. The offense was criticized last year for being too passive and not hitting for enough power (and for generally not being good enough), so their offseason consists of signing two players with middling (Hanley) to terrible (Sandoval) plate discipline, who oh by the way also turn out to be arguably the two worst defensive players in the league. Others have argued for this dynamic in other contexts, such as Japanese (Daisuke was mostly a bust, so they avoid Darvish/Tanaka) and Cuban (missed out on Abreu, sign Castillo/Moncada) signings, fear of long contracts (Crawford/Beckett flops lead to preference for short-term, high-AAV contracts and (over?-)emphasis on aging curves), etc.
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Post by bosox81 on Aug 7, 2015 8:13:57 GMT -5
Our three young starters with little MLB experience just went against the 2nd best offense in the league in one of the toughest environments for opposing pitchers and gave up a total of six runs in three games (20 innings), two of them after the starter left the game. That's what I'm taking out of this series.
Edit (Add): Also Bogaerts took a walk!
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art
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Posts: 335
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Post by art on Aug 7, 2015 9:46:56 GMT -5
One other thought. Most of us either weren't around or never saw Dick Stuart play for the Red Sox. If we did, he would resemble the 1b version of what Hanley Ramirez the LF has been this year. Stuart didn't give a crap about defense. He wanted to do one thing and one thing only, hit home runs. I think Hanley has the same mindset. I think everything about him this year is geared toward hitting home runs and nothing else. He sculpted his body to hit home runs. Meanwhile he stopped being patient at the plate, and his defense in LF is every bit as brutal as Stuart's was at 1b. I think for those who remember Stuart, Hanley is playing in a similar fashion, which is too bad, because he used to be a very good all around player. As I recall his nick name was Stone Fingers. Dr. Strangeglove is what I recall.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Aug 7, 2015 13:22:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the article but I'm not buying what he's selling about the 4th time through the lineup.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 7, 2015 13:35:51 GMT -5
As I recall his nick name was Stone Fingers. Dr. Strangeglove is what I recall. Both were used at various times. He was that bad. But he could demolish a baseball when he had a bat in his hand instead of a glove. He hit 66 HRs in A ball in 1956 and 220 in his eight full seasons in the majors with Pittsburgh, Boston and Philadelphia. He played a little for some other teams and a couple of years in Japan, during one of which he hit 33 HRs. But his career effectively was over when he was 33. With the Sox in 1963 and 64 he hit 42 and 33 HRs and he led the league in RBIs in 63 with 118. His career slash line was .264/.316/.489/.806 with an OPS+ of 117. He had a career bWAR of 7.8 but am oWAR of 14.8 and a dWAR of -12.9.
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Post by ray88h66 on Aug 7, 2015 13:38:14 GMT -5
I was a Dick Stewart fan. I think he was called all the nicknames I've seen mentioned. My dad called him iron man. "He plays every day with a steel glove" On weekends the sox opened the gates early. It was worth getting there for BP just to watch him unload. I think it was 1 dollar for a bleacher seat back then.
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Post by arzjake on Aug 7, 2015 16:02:31 GMT -5
One other thought. Most of us either weren't around or never saw Dick Stuart play for the Red Sox. If we did, he would resemble the 1b version of what Hanley Ramirez the LF has been this year. Stuart didn't give a crap about defense. He wanted to do one thing and one thing only, hit home runs. I think Hanley has the same mindset. I think everything about him this year is geared toward hitting home runs and nothing else. He sculpted his body to hit home runs. Meanwhile he stopped being patient at the plate, and his defense in LF is every bit as brutal as Stuart's was at 1b. I think for those who remember Stuart, Hanley is playing in a similar fashion, which is too bad, because he used to be a very good all around player. Not long after I was old enough to drive, I took a group of teenagers to Cleveland from our home in Western New York to see a Red Sox-Cleveland doubleheader (the Sox won both games). The highlight for us was giving Dick Stuart a standing ovation for picking up a paper wrapper near first base. He stared at us for several seconds. Did you see Ted Williams play at all?
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