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2015 New England Patriots Thread
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Post by joshv02 on Sept 3, 2015 12:29:10 GMT -5
Right. Frankly, if the investigation had been carried out in a way that wasn't a complete joke, I could've seen suspending Brady for a game or something. Kraft must be kicking himself for accepting the draft pick penalty, although that was a different question. As a layer, you cannot read the exponent report without wondering when you'll have the opportunity to do the easiest expert deposition in your life. No independent, truth-seeking process finds any wrong doing whatsoever. Period. |
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Post by borisman on Sept 3, 2015 12:52:42 GMT -5
I cannot believe that the Deflatgate topic or at least the Judge's order to vacate Brady's suspension is not on the front page as an O.T. subject. This is big, even if this is a baseball prospect website. Color me a little bit disappointed.
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Post by ray88h66 on Sept 3, 2015 14:03:05 GMT -5
So glad I was wrong about this.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 3, 2015 14:58:03 GMT -5
I continually say this but no one seems to care. If the NFL cared about the sanctity of the game, they wouldn't allow players to wear those sticky gloves that allows them to catch anything they touch with more than two fingers. That has way more of an effect than possibly getting a better grip on a football based on the air pressure to throw it. Get rid of the damn rule or change it so the teams never have the balls in their possession. If you really care about the integrity of the game that is. Which they don't. It's been a witch hunt since day 1.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Sept 3, 2015 15:58:08 GMT -5
I continually say this but no one seems to care. If the NFL cared about the sanctity of the game, they wouldn't allow players to wear those sticky gloves that allows them to catch anything they touch with more than two fingers. That has way more of an effect than possibly getting a better grip on a football based on the air pressure to throw it. Get rid of the damn rule or change it so the teams never have the balls in their possession. If you really care about the integrity of the game that is. Which they don't. It's been a witch hunt since day 1. Of course they don't! This is all about PR and it always has been. And they did a terrible job predicting how this would play out and it came back to bite them. |
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Post by costpet on Sept 3, 2015 17:22:42 GMT -5
If I'm Kraft, I would bar Goodell from the stadium next Thursday. And when the other owners come into Gillette to watch their team in their private box, I would only serve them hotdogs and Gatorade.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 3, 2015 17:45:42 GMT -5
I don't post on this part of the forum, because it isn't baseball and that's what I'm here for. I'm making an exception for this cluster f**k, probably for the last time. The NFL owners and their minions have to be some of the stupidest suits that have ever walked the planet. The most trenchant take, so far, is from Charles Pierce over at Grantland: The leadership has zero sense of scale or proportion. They are unable to respond at the proper level, no matter what happens in their league. In this case, they've alienated Robert Kraft, a guy who took ownership of an organization that had been one of the weakest in the league, with a team that struggled throughout much of its existence for mere recognition let alone success, and turned it into one of the most successful pro sports franchises ever. Then they topped themselves by taking great pains to systematically trash, again arguably, the league's biggest star. And for what? Here's Pierce again: That the league would put the commissioner's prestige and authority on the line for this is mind-boggling. Whenever I fool myself into believing I understand the way people can isolate themselves from the reality of who they are and how they should act, I'm always taken down. I can't get there. This will undoubtedly draw a huge amount of eyeballs to NFL games for weeks to come. But the amount of poison they've pumped through their greatly weakened PR veins is just crazy. A parting shot from Pierce: This train is off the tracks. |
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 3, 2015 18:37:26 GMT -5
I cannot believe that the Deflatgate topic or at least the Judge's order to vacate Brady's suspension is not on the front page as an O.T. subject. This is big, even if this is a baseball prospect website. Color me a little bit disappointed. I mean, I don't really care much because I pretty much never look at the front page. But I disagree with you. |
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 3, 2015 18:39:36 GMT -5
Ryan Lindley already? Hope he's not playing the whole game.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Sept 3, 2015 20:05:35 GMT -5
The NFL is a morally depraved enterprise run by a venal collection of misfits, half-wits, and monsters. They invent "scandals" that don't really matter either because they are too stupid to realize they don't or too depraved to focus on the ones that do. They time the news of this ball-busting scandal for the slow news times in the off-season or just before the opening weekend, the PR machine of the league churning on endlessly and marionette-ing the strings of countless sportswriters, ESPN suits, and talk radio carnival barkers. Meanwhile, ex-players kill themselves, current players get destroyed, and the enterprise marches on, making owners and Roger Goddell incredible amounts of money.
The NFL is the worst. It's as bad as FIFA but presiding over a more dangerous sport.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 3, 2015 22:25:45 GMT -5
Right. Frankly, if the investigation had been carried out in a way that wasn't a complete joke, I could've seen suspending Brady for a game or something. Kraft must be kicking himself for accepting the draft pick penalty, although that was a different question. It seemed like it would have been difficult for Kraft to challenge the draft pick suspension due to his capacity as an owner. Would've been difficult to sue the NFL. There wasn't much he could do about the draft picks but I agree, he could've at least not surrendered completely the way he did. |
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Sept 4, 2015 7:05:33 GMT -5
There have been five high visibility and high profile teams that have been royally screwed by Goodell's own brand of industrial justice (NO with Bountygate, WAS and DAL with salary cap "infraction", Miami with bullying, NE with Spygate which led to overreacting to Delfategate). These are Billionaires whose brand and product were irreparablely tarnished. Cleveland and Atlanta also got busted for misdemeanors treated like felonies (less high profile incidents). That's more than 1/5 of the owners who should be collectively making a constant stink about the league HQ but none of them seem smart enough (or willing) to take into account the cumulative effect of this incompetence. It's always fine as long as it happens to someone else.
I know it's about the money, but a trained monkey could keep the money flowing to the owners, given that an untrained monkey is currently doing it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 4, 2015 8:33:52 GMT -5
Did we really need this ruling to tell us the NFL is a joke at the top? We all knew this already.
I also agree WCP, and always have wondered this from the start, why was this ever a "thing" at all? Air pressure... My god. Even if it were cheating, the same people who wan Brady suspended forever and his HOF worthiness taken away glorify Jerry Rice but ignore his stickem or probably do the same for Gaylord Perry or any other rule bender from the past that is glorified.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 4, 2015 16:18:13 GMT -5
Did we really need this ruling to tell us the NFL is a joke at the top? We all knew this already. I also agree WCP, and always have wondered this from the start, why was this ever a "thing" at all? Air pressure... My god. Even if it were cheating, the same people who wan Brady suspended forever and his HOF worthiness taken away glorify Jerry Rice but ignore his stickem or probably do the same for Gaylord Perry or any other rule bender from the past that is glorified. No one would give a damn about Brady and deflated footballs if he hadn't won all the Super Bowls or married a super model that made even more money than he did or if he was wild off the field like Gronk or a wife beater or if he weren't a Patriot when half the people who run the NFL are former Jets executives. It's just absolute jealousy. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 4, 2015 16:35:45 GMT -5
As a member of Patriot fandom I understand the sentiment displayed here. But, I am in a camp that disagrees with most posters on principle not loyalty.
I felt that a one or two game suspension would be appropriate given the totality of circumstance...including not fully cooperating after pledging to do so.
IMO, the NFL screwed up by:
1. Not getting better data from those involved with the balls. Those guys were the crux. The Patriot lawyers refused follow-up interviews of them...saying 'one, you're done'. To be fair even what the NFL got from them sure sounded like Brady was directing the deflation issue. And why would an attendant disappear into a closed room prior to the game and after the balls were cleared? Concrete evidence...No...but this was not a court of law.
2. Relying too greatly on its CBA negotiated power and imposing a penalty that, to most, was excessive for the 'crime' without what most people view as "due process" and concrete evidence. But do those processes apply here?
3. Failure to require that Brady preserve his phone records before he could take advantage and destroy them.
This is not about people jealous of the Patriots. That is like an obnoxious beauty queen preening 'they're just jealous of me'. Why would the Commissioner care? That suggests that if he were a Patriot fan he would have ruled otherwise. BS! I have more faith in the Commissioners' integrity than that. Those that suggest otherwise I believe impose their own cynical biases here.
IMO regardless of the CBA for many Patriot fans the issue comes down to loyalty and for fans everywhere who agree with the ruling, this is a victory for the "common man" against "THE MAN".
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 4, 2015 16:45:33 GMT -5
this is a victory for the "common man" against "THE MAN". Yes, so long as that "common man" is married to a Brazilian supermodel, has more money than God, is one of the greatest football players ever, and is really really really ridiculously good looking.  |
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Post by jmei on Sept 4, 2015 18:00:38 GMT -5
OK, this is a tangent, but am I the only one who always thought Brady was kind of an uggo?
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Sept 4, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5
As a member of Patriot fandom I understand the sentiment displayed here. But, I am in a camp that disagrees with most posters on principle not loyalty. I felt that a one or two game suspension would be appropriate given the totality of circumstance...including not fully cooperating after pledging to do so. IMO, the NFL screwed up by: This isn't true. What deflation issue? Was it the deflation issue that had the balls measure within range of the Idea Gas Law, according to the referee who handled and measured the balls pre and post game? He needed to take a leak. So he said. The ref's room was crowded and he likely wanted privacy, being a middle-aged obese gent. Maybe his weenie doesn't stream, or other plumbing issues. Who knows.
They had no legal standing to require Brady to produce either his phone or his phone records. Personal electronic communications are off-limits according to the CBA. That Goodell made an issue of the phone destruction was a significant clue for the impartial observer — why is he clamoring about TB disposing off non-evidence? Red herring. A month ago his popularity was likely at an all-time high, amongst fans and owners, as the guy standing up to, and taking down, the evil Patriots and their pretty boy QB. Now, not so much. But that's because he failed, not that he tried.If I might borrow from Forrest Gump's mom, integrity is as integrity does. To recount (Roger, or his office): 1) 11 of 12 footballs … 2 lbs to Mort — left it uncorrected TO THIS DAY; 2) False info letter to Patriots; 3) "Independent" investigation; 4) Direct lie in his statement about Brady's testimony in appeal hearing; 5) "Destroy, destroy, destroy!" 6) Changed findings from Wells report (more probable than not, generally aware) to co-conspirator for Judge Berman's court; 7) Bonus: It's more probable than not that he was generally aware of the Ray Rice video. I'm sure there's more lies I'm not presently thinking of. The fact that Goodell and the league office set out to control the narrative from the go, to paint the Patriots and TB guilty before all the independent facts were in, speaks clearly to his level of integrity. He has none. But Judge Berman wasn't fooled and said so. Apparently not loudly enough for some. |
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Post by mgoetze on Sept 4, 2015 20:35:55 GMT -5
So, Ryan Lindley has been cut and the Patriots are once again in that minority of teams carrying only 2 QBs on their 53-man roster. What do you guys make of Jimmy G. getting no reps in the 4th preseason game? I guess it means the Patriots are confident in him as a backup?
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Sept 4, 2015 21:23:38 GMT -5
So, Ryan Lindley has been cut and the Patriots are once again in that minority of teams carrying only 2 QBs on their 53-man roster. What do you guys make of Jimmy G. getting no reps in the 4th preseason game? I guess it means the Patriots are confident in him as a backup? I don't see any other reasonable way to interpret it. |
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 5, 2015 9:03:21 GMT -5
As a member of Patriot fandom I understand the sentiment displayed here. But, I am in a camp that disagrees with most posters on principle not loyalty. I felt that a one or two game suspension would be appropriate given the totality of circumstance...including not fully cooperating after pledging to do so. IMO, the NFL screwed up by: 1. Not getting better data from those involved with the balls. Those guys were the crux. The Patriot lawyers refused follow-up interviews of them...saying 'one, you're done'. To be fair even what the NFL got from them sure sounded like Brady was directing the deflation issue. And why would an attendant disappear into a closed room prior to the game and after the balls were cleared? Concrete evidence...No...but this was not a court of law. 2. Relying too greatly on its CBA negotiated power and imposing a penalty that, to most, was excessive for the 'crime' without what most people view as "due process" and concrete evidence. But do those processes apply here? 3. Failure to require that Brady preserve his phone records before he could take advantage and destroy them. This is not about people jealous of the Patriots. That is like an obnoxious beauty queen preening 'they're just jealous of me'. Why would the Commissioner care? That suggests that if he were a Patriot fan he would have ruled otherwise. BS! I have more faith in the Commissioners' integrity than that. Those that suggest otherwise I believe impose their own cynical biases here. IMO regardless of the CBA for many Patriot fans the issue comes down to loyalty and for fans everywhere who agree with the ruling, this is a victory for the "common man" against "THE MAN". Once again: there's no evidence the footballs were even deflated. You bought into the NFL's story. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 5, 2015 11:15:49 GMT -5
OK, this is a tangent, but am I the only one who always thought Brady was kind of an uggo? Like the Seinfeld "Man hands" episode it depends on the lighting.....or the artist. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 5, 2015 11:48:52 GMT -5
As a member of Patriot fandom I understand the sentiment displayed here. But, I am in a camp that disagrees with most posters on principle not loyalty. I felt that a one or two game suspension would be appropriate given the totality of circumstance...including not fully cooperating after pledging to do so. IMO, the NFL screwed up by: This isn't true. What deflation issue? Was it the deflation issue that had the balls measure within range of the Idea Gas Law, according to the referee who handled and measured the balls pre and post game? He needed to take a leak. So he said. The ref's room was crowded and he likely wanted privacy, being a middle-aged obese gent. Maybe his weenie doesn't stream, or other plumbing issues. Who knows.
They had no legal standing to require Brady to produce either his phone or his phone records. Personal electronic communications are off-limits according to the CBA. That Goodell made an issue of the phone destruction was a significant clue for the impartial observer — why is he clamoring about TB disposing off non-evidence? Red herring. A month ago his popularity was likely at an all-time high, amongst fans and owners, as the guy standing up to, and taking down, the evil Patriots and their pretty boy QB. Now, not so much. But that's because he failed, not that he tried.If I might borrow from Forrest Gump's mom, integrity is as integrity does. To recount (Roger, or his office): 1) 11 of 12 footballs … 2 lbs to Mort — left it uncorrected TO THIS DAY; 2) False info letter to Patriots; 3) "Independent" investigation; 4) Direct lie in his statement about Brady's testimony in appeal hearing; 5) "Destroy, destroy, destroy!" 6) Changed findings from Wells report (more probable than not, generally aware) to co-conspirator for Judge Berman's court; 7) Bonus: It's more probable than not that he was generally aware of the Ray Rice video. I'm sure there's more lies I'm not presently thinking of. The fact that Goodell and the league office set out to control the narrative from the go, to paint the Patriots and TB guilty before all the independent facts were in, speaks clearly to his level of integrity. He has none. But Judge Berman wasn't fooled and said so. Apparently not loudly enough for some. Well as to my assertion that the Patriot lawyers did not allow follow-up with the ball attendants after the NFL discovered the text messages b/t the ball attendants and to which you disagreed, I refer you to this article: time.com/3849688/deflategate-text-messages-patriots-tom-brady/To say that there was no evidence is just wrong too. There was no direct, hard evidence but there was circumstantial evidence. You say that the CBA protects private electronic transmissions. I have no idea whether it does but even if so does that appertain when electronic transmissions relate to possible rules violations? Brady was not asked to turn over his phone BTW. He ordered his phone destroyed just after appearing at a hearing. The timing is highly suspicious...especially when he did not destroy a prior phone. The only NFL request was that his attorneys, in their pledge for full cooperation, review the transmissions and report only those that related to the pending issue. Private matters would have been protected. I just ran across this article which I believe states a good case that the ruling did not vindicate Brady as to the deflating issue....http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-brady-nfl-plaschke-20150904-column.html A question I have is whether part of the CBA directs full cooperation in such matters or this is like a criminal process where players do not have any obligation to produce evidence. Your reference to the attendant needing extra time to pee because he had an enlarged prostate is a bit of TMI if not specious. The balls were tested before the game and found to pass true. They were then given to the attendant who vanished into the bathroom with the balls. New balls were used in the second half and tested OK. It was the Patriot ball(s) that were faulty in the first half. To be clear, I think that the judge ruled correctly on the fundamentals and disturbed that Brady was refused the opportunity to question one of the attys involved for the NFL. I'm curious, if this ruling is upheld, what effect it may have on future collectively bargained agreements. It seems that union members or management have a precedent for changing perhaps hitherto-fore sanctified agreements. |
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Post by chavopepe2 on Sept 5, 2015 13:19:53 GMT -5
The way I see it there are four types of Patriot fans:
1. The "Jerry Thorntons".
These are the fans that believe Brady is innocent and would believe he was innocent no matter what the evidence said. They are the fanboys, rocking their TB12 bumper stickers, Patriot helmet popup campers, and suped up F350s with a big screen in the back. People assume this is the majority of Pats fans, but it's really a small minority.
2. The "Michael Holleys"
These are the Patriot fans that want Brady to be innocent, but take a reasonable look at the evidence and weigh it accordingly. They give him the benefit of the doubt, but they aren't blinded by their fandom. These fans have come to the conclusion that he is innocent not because they are fanboys, but because they do not believe the preponderance of the evidence shows him to be guilty. This group is the majority.
3. The "Michael Felgers"
This is a small group of Patriots that believe Brady did it just because they like to get a rise out of people. They are the contrarians, the pot-stirrers, the ass holes that will say anything to get you going. They like to argue and they know exactly what buttons to press to piss you off. It isn't about reasonably weighing the evidence, it is about saying things that will stir up a debate.
4. The "Tony Mazzarottis"
This group of fans believes Brady is guilty because they think there is some type of higher righteousness to being a Patriots fan that "admits" Brady is guilty. They believe they are the reasonable ones because clearly they want Brady to be innocent, right? So they must be! The accuse all type 2s of being type 1s and then generally hang out with type 3s.
Notice there isn't a type that believes Brady is guilty that is also reasonable. There is no reasonable interpretation of the facts that takes you from a presumption of innocence to guilty. There is stuff that can be interpreted as evidence, but only if you are starting with a presumption of guilt does that lead you to a guilty verdict. This isn't a court of law, but there is still due process. There is still a presumption of innocence. Every bit of the evidence that points to guilt for Brady can be explained away with a reasonable alternative scenario. That is the definition of innocence.
It's like flipping a coin three times in a row. Heads is guilty, tails is innocence. It's a coin flip that the balls were deflated at all ("more probably than not"), it's a coin flip that Brady was involved ("more probably than not"), and it's a coin flip that the extent of his involvement was a violation of the rules ("generally aware"). There's only a 12.5% chance you get heads all three times.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 5, 2015 13:25:26 GMT -5
What chavo said.
The deflator text and Brady destroying his phone look like evidence of guilt ... IF the footballs were actually under-inflated. But there's no evidence they were tampered with in the first place.
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