Trading Swihart: The Discussion Thread

Well you do remember David Ross taking over for Salty in the 2013 World Series, right?  So it hasn't been too long since that happened.  Whether you noticed it or not, Ross was so much better than Salty at catching and pitch framing.

Not sure about Zimmerman, but I like the overall thinking here. I think you call Cincinnati, see if they'd take that deal for Chapman (maybe you throw in another prospect). They're going to need starting pitching, with Leake and Cueto leaving, and may find Buch's "value" tantalizing. 

I think Price is really the prize; but I don't think he comes here. Too much money, bad Boston history, and the guy is a bit of an ass, at least based on his public persona. But then if he's your ace, he's your a.., I guess. Cueto scares me a bit, so Zimm may be a better option depending on the money. One of the three + a trade for another starter, and you've got something.

As for the topic at hand, catching is tough to find, and Vasquez is coming off TJS. Too much uncertainty there. I keep Swihart.

Zimm's numbers are close to 200 innings a year, an era close to high 2's and low 3's.  He strikes out guys at a roughly 4+ to 1 ratio and his WHIP is just north of 1.1.  That is fairly close to a #1 albeit not a #1.  Maybe a not a true #1 but clearly seems like a #2.  If, and it is a big if, Porcello is what he has been lately then he is a #2/3.  Same story with Kelly as he becomes a #3/4.  Miley is a #4....and ERodriguez is a potential # who knows what....possible # 1-5 depending on how he develops.

I think you can win with that but need to totally revamp the bullpen and make it a strength.  Need 2-3 power arms and some better depth throughout the bullpen.  

Owens, Wright and Johnson provide starting pitching depth which is needed every year.

I only push for Zimm because I think he can be had for less than Cueto and Price and without selling the farm for a Gray.....but if you could get Gray for a package centered on Margot then I am all for it.

Yeah, baseball is going with power especially in the bullpens and I advocated that for a few years. DD is clear that he favors power so I expect that next year's pen could be totally retooled...and I mean that literally. Koji & Taz have value and may not be in our future. We can go back and forth on Swihart but no one knows what Vazquez will be with the arm or the bat. We have some idea with Swihart. Of the two only Swihart has current value and the consensus here (but not me) is that we should not keep both. My feeling is that Swihart could do some 1B (hey he has athleticism and a good glove) and, in the odd situation, DH. If he catches 90 games and Vazquez 70 that would be a nice mix. If he becomes a .280-300 hitter with 15 hrs. we will be saying damn he is another 'Rizzo' why did we let him go?

u do not trade swihart for anything. sorry yes boston needs an ace but 4/5th of this rotation is set unless we trade buch. porcello/miley/rodriguez have earned there spots well porcello because of his 20 million per extension. i say sign david price and be done with it. although i want owens in rotation. swihart to me is one of those few really special game changing players at his position. he can be a top 5 catcher in majors. i love vasquez but he is all glove no bat and guys like him end up backups mostly. id trade vasquez before i trade swihart. swihart can be a special player u don't trade those guys. its why i don't want to trade devers or chavis or benintendi also.

I wouldn't trade Swihart. He should be one of the best catchers in the league over the next 6 years. He's just developing and he will improve. The player he is right now is pretty decent. An improved Swihart is an all-star catcher, one of the best in Red Sox history. I wouldn't be rushing to trade him.

We don't know how Vazquez is going to be post-injury. We don't know if he's going to hit enough, although I suspect with what should be strong defense, he will, but I don't buy that his pitch framing skills are so superior to everybody else that it outweighs what Swihart can do with the bat, especially if he continues to improve defensively, too.

Neither one of those two catchers are finished products, but if I have to gamble on one, I'll take the guy who I know I won't have to bat last. It's a big advantage to have a big bat in the catcher's spot, especially when it is one who can be a good defensive catcher. Swihart isn't there yet, but I think he can be.

The only reason you trade him would be for a young ace, but frankly there's nobody that I'm drooling over. I'd rather see the Sox use Margot as bait or use free agency, whether it's going after Price, going after Cueto (if his medicals check out), or going after Otani, which would be ideal.

The Sox, in my opinion, between having Margot, and having a guy like Buchholz, Owens, Kelly, or even Miley to deal, have starting pitching to offer another club who would need a cost controlled starter and a centerfielder with a high ceiling. They don't need to deal Swihart, nor do they need to deal Betts, nor do they need to deal Moncada, Devers, Benintendi or Espinoza.

There is no young Pedro Martinez out there that's worth all that trouble. They can get good pitching, either by trade or free agency, without having to sacrifice those guys.

Catchers are involved in every single pitch made all season long.  It's pretty easy to see why their defense, pitch framing and pitch calling is unbelievably important.  Their bats are not nearly as important because they don't bat nearly as much.  The Red Sox also dumped AJP for Vazquez.  And there are almost no catchers who can hit in the majors so obviously it's not that important to most teams either.

So that's a reason to get rid of one that can hit?

If they did, it would be because another team made a great offer and/or because they believe Vazquez' defensive/pitch framing performance is pretty easily repeatable if he comes back well from TJS.

Swihart and about 90% of the catchers in the majors aren't even close to CV defensively. He's that good. Not just with the arm, and the framing, but blocking pitches and calling a game. You can't quantify calling a game and the confidence a pitcher has that if he throws a breaking ball in the dirt, it will be blocked. He's amazing.

The catcher's primary job is to receive the ball, which includes pitch-framing (and in many constructs, calling the game) and helping pitchers hold runners. It is a position where, if necessary, you can take a hit on offense to get plus defense because it affects so much of the game. And jimed14's point about CF goes as well, and can be extrapolated to SS. These are positions where plus defense makes them much more valuable to their team and make average or even slightly below average offense in those positions acceptable. There is a lot of data out there on this and countless articles starting with Bill James way back when he was sending around a self-print newsletter.

I have to say that I haven't read much of this thread, because the question is pretty close to moot. The Sox can't be sure if Vazquez will be capable next year, and they *can't* trade Swihart until they know that. It's not really a question of weighing resources or anything like that, just the Sox aren't going into the year with Hanigan and a fungible backup catcher with no depth at AAA, which is what they'd be doing if Vazquez isn't ready.

I was struck by the Tippett anecdote that traced the collapse of the Red Sox to Hanigan's injury. That shows how important they think catching (and specifically catching defense, probably) is to the team.