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Post by jimed14 on Feb 22, 2016 15:33:09 GMT -5
The fact that Farrell made an issue of his weight and Sandoval said there was no discussion of his weight IS an issue whether you're sick of hearing about it or not. They could easily give the "it's genetically impossible for him to lose a pound" excuse some merit by actually saying that.
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Post by kyla13 on Feb 22, 2016 17:00:21 GMT -5
Am I the only one here who thinks Pablo looks fitter than at any point in time last year? Or am I really that blind?
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Post by sarasoxer on Feb 22, 2016 17:03:58 GMT -5
Pete Abraham @peteabe 33s33 seconds ago Dave Dombrowski said the #RedSox watched Sandoval work out all winter. They believe he is in better condition. "Not concerned," he said. What about the "20-22 pounds" he had lost??...This all sounds like b.s. for the press....BSOHL rosy spring lenses. Yeah Panda was good when he was fat but he was never good when he was THIS fat. As reports came out last year his range declined sadly. Time to 'eat' some salary and cast the manatee adrift.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 22, 2016 17:06:15 GMT -5
Am I the only one here who thinks Pablo looks fitter than at any point in time last year? Or am I really that blind? It depends on the angle you look at his pictures. He'll always be fat he just needs to get back to the Kung fu panda athletic fat.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 22, 2016 17:35:36 GMT -5
Alright, this is pretty absurd. I dunno, maybe it's this from earlier in the article? Worked really hard on that new glove in the offseason, huh Hanley? How hard is it to find someone to throw you some balls and work on footwork as part of workouts? Maybe get used to a 1b mitt and even break one in? Sounds an awful lot like last spring when he went out to the outfield to take fly balls for the first time and worked at it for about 10 minutes a day so he wouldn't get "worn down". At least he lost 15 pounds.
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Post by jmei on Feb 22, 2016 18:39:27 GMT -5
Does it really matter to you that he used Mike Napoli's old 1B glove rather than a new one? Remember, the fact that he used a broken-in glove absolutely does not mean that he did not work on his 1B defense during the offseason. If you're going to make that assumption, you need a lot more evidence that which glove he brought to Spring Training.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 22, 2016 19:12:45 GMT -5
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Post by jclmontana on Feb 22, 2016 19:23:06 GMT -5
I have never been and never will be a big Sandoval fan, but when has he ever not been fat? He was fat when he was good, and he's fat now. It's so weird to see people pretend that this isn't all just angst about his horrible performance last year. He looks the way he's always looked, and people are basically having a contest over who can be the most outraged about it. It's tiresome. Uh, it is not just the aesthetics of the belly. In 2015, the guy was literally one of the worst position players in all of baseball. He is making 20 mil per year. He completely fell apart batting against lefties, to the point where he had to abandon switch-hitting, negating one of his historic strengths. His lack of physical conditioning was clearly a factor in his on-field performance. He is at the age where all athletes have to focus on their bodies in order to continue to perform at their previous levels. Add in the heft, and it is entirely reasonable to be disappointed by the way he looks, to assume that he has not done enough off-season conditioning to turn his ship around. It is amazing that Panda was able to perform at his previous high levels with his body, but he has been in decline for the last few years, and he has exactly the body type to fall off the performance cliff. He may have been good and fat in the past, but it is increasingly unlikely that he can be good and fat in the future. Then you add his ludicrous "I don't have anything to prove" comment, and I have to think the outrage has been pretty restrained. Is it possible that he really did lose a bunch of weight? Sure, hard to notice even twenty pounds off such a big guy, but man, his entire presentation in camp is really alarming.
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Post by burythehammer on Feb 22, 2016 20:14:01 GMT -5
No, ya think? I thought it was normal to be 5'11 and weigh 270 pounds.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 22, 2016 20:20:49 GMT -5
Ok, I can understand (and agree) with mocking Pablo because he's fat, but knocking Hanley for wearing Napoli's gloves might be when we're going too far.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Feb 22, 2016 20:31:01 GMT -5
Ok, I can understand (and agree) with mocking Pablo because he's fat, but knocking Hanley for wearing Napoli's gloves might be when we're going too far. To be honest, with the media tomfoolery over the past few days, I'm starting to miss the radio silence we were enjoying for the time between the Patriots exit and start of ST.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 22, 2016 20:38:52 GMT -5
Ok, I can understand (and agree) with mocking Pablo because he's fat, but knocking Hanley for wearing Napoli's gloves might be when we're going too far. It's tough to follow the story as Shaughnessy and Hanley tell it, but it's one glove. Here's what actually happened: Hanley knew he was playing 1B this year, so when he left last year, he brought one of Napoli's old gloves home rather than wait for Wilson to send him one of his own. I'm guessing he brought the glove home for reasons other than sitting and looking at it. The Wilson glove arrives, and rather than unpack it and start to break it in and then pack it back up, Hanley puts it with the rest of his stuff that will be shipped to the Fort and continues practicing with the Napoli glove. He then decides to arrive early and takes the Napoli glove with him, because he's going to beat most of his luggage to ST. People see him using the old glove, and some idiots start complaining about it, and the CHB overhears them. So his crimes are a) not wanting to wait until he gets a personalized glove, and instead borrowing an old one to start learning the position, and b) not wanting to stop and break in a new one while he's just started learning the position using one that's well broken-in already, and c) arriving at camp before most of his luggage.
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Post by soxfan06 on Feb 22, 2016 22:48:57 GMT -5
People using the excuse that Pablo can't lose the weight are just being silly.
He's lost the weight before, he just doesn't want/care to lose weight. Combine that with the first thing he did here was lie to everyone saying "they didn't tell me to lose weight" when for a week, everyone was clearly stating the told Sandoval to lose weight.
Enough is enough. It's not that he's fat. It's that he's fat, he's a liar and he's clearly didn't care about the abysmal season he had last year. Especially frustrating when asked was last year a disappointment and he answers "no disappointment. It's baseball."
Seriously. Screw this guy.
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Post by thursty on Feb 22, 2016 23:48:56 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 23, 2016 7:06:10 GMT -5
Ok, I can understand (and agree) with mocking Pablo because he's fat, but knocking Hanley for wearing Napoli's gloves might be when we're going too far. It's tough to follow the story as Shaughnessy and Hanley tell it, but it's one glove. Here's what actually happened: Hanley knew he was playing 1B this year, so when he left last year, he brought one of Napoli's old gloves home rather than wait for Wilson to send him one of his own. I'm guessing he brought the glove home for reasons other than sitting and looking at it. The Wilson glove arrives, and rather than unpack it and start to break it in and then pack it back up, Hanley puts it with the rest of his stuff that will be shipped to the Fort and continues practicing with the Napoli glove. He then decides to arrive early and takes the Napoli glove with him, because he's going to beat most of his luggage to ST. People see him using the old glove, and some idiots start complaining about it, and the CHB overhears them. So his crimes are a) not wanting to wait until he gets a personalized glove, and instead borrowing an old one to start learning the position, and b) not wanting to stop and break in a new one while he's just started learning the position using one that's well broken-in already, and c) arriving at camp before most of his luggage. Are these assumptions based on his work with an outfield glove last offseason? I really don't know what the process is for major league players to break gloves in and if they have other people do it for them, but I know I spent a really long time at it with my gloves. I wouldn't have ever wanted anyone else doing it for me. Your point B is kinda crazy because a new glove has to be broken in sometime. I imagine it would be a better decision to do it without cameras in his face for every ground ball and throw to first. His crime is more likely that he never picked up a glove and waited until right now to get his own glove because it was an afterthought. I'll believe that before I assume he worked his *** off for the first time at something other than lifting weights or hitting.
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Post by jmei on Feb 23, 2016 9:08:53 GMT -5
It's tough to follow the story as Shaughnessy and Hanley tell it, but it's one glove. Here's what actually happened: Hanley knew he was playing 1B this year, so when he left last year, he brought one of Napoli's old gloves home rather than wait for Wilson to send him one of his own. I'm guessing he brought the glove home for reasons other than sitting and looking at it. The Wilson glove arrives, and rather than unpack it and start to break it in and then pack it back up, Hanley puts it with the rest of his stuff that will be shipped to the Fort and continues practicing with the Napoli glove. He then decides to arrive early and takes the Napoli glove with him, because he's going to beat most of his luggage to ST. People see him using the old glove, and some idiots start complaining about it, and the CHB overhears them. So his crimes are a) not wanting to wait until he gets a personalized glove, and instead borrowing an old one to start learning the position, and b) not wanting to stop and break in a new one while he's just started learning the position using one that's well broken-in already, and c) arriving at camp before most of his luggage. Are these assumptions based on his work with an outfield glove last offseason? I really don't know what the process is for major league players to break gloves in and if they have other people do it for them, but I know I spent a really long time at it with my gloves. I wouldn't have ever wanted anyone else doing it for me. Your point B is kinda crazy because a new glove has to be broken in sometime. I imagine it would be a better decision to do it without cameras in his face for every ground ball and throw to first. His crime is more likely that he never picked up a glove and waited until right now to get his own glove because it was an afterthought. I'll believe that before I assume he worked his *** off for the first time at something other than lifting weights or hitting. Multiple sources have reported that Hanley put in a significant amount of work this offseason (yes, with Mike Napoli's old glove) to get himself acclimated to first base. For instance, here's Gammons ( link): But please, continue to assume that Hanley Ramirez, one of the best baseball players in the world, has zero work ethic.
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Post by jmei on Feb 23, 2016 9:21:42 GMT -5
This was pretty unconvincing to me. Yes, Sandoval is fat and has poor plate discipline, but he's always had those issues, and despite them, he's consistently been an above-average starter in just about every season prior to last year. Similarly, comparing a guy with a career 116 wRC+ to the Nick Puntos of the world does not make for insightful analysis. I do agree that there are real concerns about whether his weight raises serious questions about his defense going forward (because a fat 30-year-old Sandoval is likely to be less athletic than a fat 24-year-old Sandoval), but I'm reasonably confident that his offense will see a good bit of positive regression. That's unlikely to be enough to salvage his contract, and, even with a bounce-back offensively, he might not be good enough to start on a playoff team if he's an awful defensive 3B or if he has to move to 1B. But a lot of the doom and gloom is too much.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Feb 23, 2016 9:25:07 GMT -5
It's tough to follow the story as Shaughnessy and Hanley tell it, but it's one glove. Here's what actually happened: Hanley knew he was playing 1B this year, so when he left last year, he brought one of Napoli's old gloves home rather than wait for Wilson to send him one of his own. I'm guessing he brought the glove home for reasons other than sitting and looking at it. The Wilson glove arrives, and rather than unpack it and start to break it in and then pack it back up, Hanley puts it with the rest of his stuff that will be shipped to the Fort and continues practicing with the Napoli glove. He then decides to arrive early and takes the Napoli glove with him, because he's going to beat most of his luggage to ST. People see him using the old glove, and some idiots start complaining about it, and the CHB overhears them. So his crimes are a) not wanting to wait until he gets a personalized glove, and instead borrowing an old one to start learning the position, and b) not wanting to stop and break in a new one while he's just started learning the position using one that's well broken-in already, and c) arriving at camp before most of his luggage. Are these assumptions based on his work with an outfield glove last offseason? I really don't know what the process is for major league players to break gloves in and if they have other people do it for them, but I know I spent a really long time at it with my gloves. I wouldn't have ever wanted anyone else doing it for me. Your point B is kinda crazy because a new glove has to be broken in sometime. I imagine it would be a better decision to do it without cameras in his face for every ground ball and throw to first. His crime is more likely that he never picked up a glove and waited until right now to get his own glove because it was an afterthought. I'll believe that before I assume he worked his *** off for the first time at something other than lifting weights or hitting. Most of us here have played some sort of organized baseball. The worst thing is to put on and use a non broken in glove. It feels like a piece of wood. I can understand him using Nap's glove for early practice in the offseason. Once he knew he would be playing 1B this year, the first thing he should have done is call Wilson & get a glove in November & properly break it in early in the offseason while still using Nap's glove for practice.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 23, 2016 9:26:56 GMT -5
Are these assumptions based on his work with an outfield glove last offseason? I really don't know what the process is for major league players to break gloves in and if they have other people do it for them, but I know I spent a really long time at it with my gloves. I wouldn't have ever wanted anyone else doing it for me. Your point B is kinda crazy because a new glove has to be broken in sometime. I imagine it would be a better decision to do it without cameras in his face for every ground ball and throw to first. His crime is more likely that he never picked up a glove and waited until right now to get his own glove because it was an afterthought. I'll believe that before I assume he worked his *** off for the first time at something other than lifting weights or hitting. Multiple sources have reported that Hanley put in a significant amount of work this offseason (yes, with Mike Napoli's old glove) to get himself acclimated to first base. For instance, here's Gammons ( link): But please, continue to assume that Hanley Ramirez, one of the best baseball players in the world, has zero work ethic. I didn't say zero work ethic. I said I won't assume he worked at something other than lifting weights or hitting. That is his well established track record. If only Pablo would work as hard as Hanley... One of the best baseball players in the world, and yet one of the worst defensive baseball players in the world. That's the subject.
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Post by kyla13 on Feb 23, 2016 9:48:32 GMT -5
He's probably exaggerating a little bit (or maybe a lot) in his post above, but temple's been consistently touting the Nintendo man as the top Red Sox prospect in his posts.
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Post by jmei on Feb 23, 2016 9:58:35 GMT -5
I didn't say zero work ethic. I said I won't assume he worked at something other than lifting weights or hitting. That is his well established track record. If only Pablo would work as hard as Hanley... One of the best baseball players in the world, and yet one of the worst defensive baseball players in the world. That's the subject. In 2015 in LF, sure, but don't forget that he was a playable defensive shortstop for most of his career, and he didn't manage to do so by dumb luck. I would not make any assumptions about his unwillingness to put in the work on defense, especially since we have evidence to the contrary.
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dd
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Post by dd on Feb 23, 2016 11:01:20 GMT -5
Are these assumptions based on his work with an outfield glove last offseason? I really don't know what the process is for major league players to break gloves in and if they have other people do it for them, but I know I spent a really long time at it with my gloves. I wouldn't have ever wanted anyone else doing it for me. Your point B is kinda crazy because a new glove has to be broken in sometime. I imagine it would be a better decision to do it without cameras in his face for every ground ball and throw to first. His crime is more likely that he never picked up a glove and waited until right now to get his own glove because it was an afterthought. I'll believe that before I assume he worked his *** off for the first time at something other than lifting weights or hitting. Most of us here have played some sort of organized baseball. The worst thing is to put on and use a non broken in glove. It feels like a piece of wood. I can understand him using Nap's glove for early practice in the offseason. Once he knew he would be playing 1B this year, the first thing he should have done is call Wilson & get a glove in November & properly break it in early in the offseason while still using Nap's glove for practice. Pardon this potentially ignorant question, but the last time I played any organized baseball was in Little League and that was over 50 years ago. This was certainly true of gloves then, but I've heard of (and just googled) gloves that are pre-broken in. Do MLB players still have to do this? If so, do they typically do it themselves or is it the equipment manager (or some such) that does it?
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Feb 23, 2016 11:59:55 GMT -5
I didn't say zero work ethic. I said I won't assume he worked at something other than lifting weights or hitting. That is his well established track record. If only Pablo would work as hard as Hanley... One of the best baseball players in the world, and yet one of the worst defensive baseball players in the world. That's the subject. In 2015 in LF, sure, but don't forget that he was a playable defensive shortstop for most of his career, and he didn't manage to do so by dumb luck. I would not make any assumptions about his unwillingness to put in the work on defense, especially since we have evidence to the contrary. This is a guy who went from a 50 SB threat to a liability on the base path...There's also a bunch of articles about his lake of commitment to learn playing the OF (one of the reasons of Beyeler's firing). Maybe he's commited to put the work on defense but this dude is dumb, so clueless about what he specificaly needs to do to get better that he'll end up having the worst results. Still, I prefer him to the fat imposter manning the hot corner!
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 23, 2016 13:48:24 GMT -5
Regarding the Sandoval pile-on and his value: part of the issue is that he wasn't often a great hitter when he went to the Giants. Too much of his value was tied up in him being a capable-to-good third baseman. Compare him to another bad-body type like Prince Fielder, who was a bad fielder but created so much value with his offense that the bet was essentially that his skill and coordination would be enough to give him value as his body was likely to go from bad to worse. That's a much safer bed (even if it still is a dangerous one) than betting that someone shaped like Sandoval will keep enough of his defensive value to maintain being worth a $19 million annual deal as a 115 wRC+ hitter.
These aren't new complaints though. It's a reason so many of us were wary of the deal when the Red Sox signed him. If his offense returns to its 2013-14 level but his 2015 defense is the new normal, that's just not a very good player at all. And I agree with you that the pile-on is tiring, but going back to when the contract was signed it's not like this was an unforseeable event.
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Post by jmei on Feb 23, 2016 14:19:31 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I've disliked that contract from the start and have always been wary about his aging curve (both because of the defense and because his main offensive skill (making a lot of good contact on pitches outside the zone) ages poorly). For that deal to work out, they really needed to get a lot of surplus value in the first couple years of the deal, and that certainly seems unlikely to happen now.
With that said, if Sandoval bounces back to a 110 wRC+, he's probably the best 3B on the roster even with below-average defense.
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