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4/19-4/21 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by jclmontana on Apr 21, 2016 17:33:51 GMT -5
It is not the same as last year, the offense is way better, and there is way more to work with on the pitching side of things. It's really on a manager to pull the right levers when an otherwise good/promising team is struggling and allow it to find its true talent level. A talented manager can't make a bad team good, but he can help a team perform to the best of its abilities and get through the rough patches with less damage. Maybe this team does truely suck, but it really is too soon to tell. Really. Get Farrell gone so we can see what we really have this year.
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 21, 2016 17:44:56 GMT -5
Lovullo was smart to stay and I suspect that he will inherit heavenly earth...i.e. Sox Manager
Price has not displayed his customary velocity or command. Hopefully things are ok. This is early.
The bullpen needs more "ready" arms...to date same ol, same ol. How many games has the pen already lost??? Where do we rank among ML bullpens in ERA? Sure Smith will help if not irretrievably injured...but....
I remember people were ooing and ahhing about the bullpen this year with 2 acquisitions (ok one to date) and others downplayed the importance of added pen arms as marginally valuable but IMO we need another LH in place of Layne (hard thrower..think we would try harder to sign Miller if we could turn back the clock?) ..and maybe one other hard thrower.
How about Moncada for Miller if we want to win this year? Kimbrel, Miller, & Smith?? Would that have won us a few more games already? The Yanks may not be going anywhere with a sub-standard offense and might like to build for their future. They already have Chapman and Betances, Shreve et al. They have the devil's surplus.
I am not sold on Barnes. He needs to further develop good offspeed (see Betances). And...Noe must go...apologies to Cochran....
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Post by Guidas on Apr 21, 2016 17:53:36 GMT -5
It's not that Farrell is entirely responsible or mostly responsible for the loss. But he is responsible for some of it, which continues a pattern of tactical errors that has basically continued through his entire career as a manager (including his Blue Jays years). He's just a bad in-game manager, and his alleged ability to maintain clubhouse chemistry and be a pitcher whisperer or whatever has not been evident since 2013. There is increasingly little evidence that John Farrell is a good major league manager, and if that's the case, there needs to be a change made. Managers do only have a very small impact on wins and losses, but as long as they have some impact, the front office can't keep running out a guy who actively hurts the team, especially when they have a promising replacement candidate in-house. Agree. It's a body of work thing as much as a situational, day-to-day thing where any manager can screw up no matter how good. And I repeat: Farrell does not have to fired per se - he can easily be transitioned into an assistant GM job. It's been reported several times that he aspires ultimately to work in the front office so no face needs to be lost. Or at least, not as much as being streeted.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 21, 2016 17:55:22 GMT -5
Lovullo was smart to stay and I suspect that he will inherit heavenly earth...i.e. Sox Manager Price has not displayed his customary velocity or command. Hopefully things are ok. This is early.The bullpen needs more "ready" arms...to date same ol, same ol. How many games has the pen already lost??? Where do we rank among ML bullpens in ERA? Sure Smith will help if not irretrievably injured...but.... I remember people were ooing and ahhing about the bullpen this year with 2 acquisitions (ok one to date) and others downplayed the importance of added pen arms as marginally valuable but IMO we need another LH in place of Layne (hard thrower..think we would try harder to sign Miller if we could turn back the clock?) ..and maybe one other hard thrower. How about Moncada for Miller if we want to win this year? Kimbrel, Miller, & Smith?? Would that have won us a few more games already? The Yanks may not be going anywhere with a sub-standard offense and might like to build for their future. They already have Chapman and Betances, Shreve et al. They have the devil's surplus. I am not sold on Barnes. He needs to further develop good offspeed (see Betances). And...Noe must go...apologies to Cochran.... I actually had that thought while watching this game and his last start. Seems like the command is just not there. Sometimes this is an early indicator of an underlying injury. Other times it's just a guy's mechanics or feel just being a bit off.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 21, 2016 17:56:00 GMT -5
So were we, William. So were we.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 21, 2016 18:10:30 GMT -5
Guidas. I noticed and wondered why you changed your avatar to Prince. Nice tribute, brother!!
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Apr 21, 2016 18:39:52 GMT -5
I only saw part of the game after Price was gone and not the part when the Rays scored the four runs at the end. However, I cannot believe that Farrell let Cuevas pitch more than two innings. That was dumb. Then to bring in Ramirez was even dumber. I agree with all of you who believe Farrell should go. This was a game the Sox could have won despite Price's horrible performance. A good manager wins games like this. A bad manager puts in minor league pitchers when the game is on the line.
It is easy to forget that Pedro had some bad games as well. He famously said "pitchers give up hits." Unless there is something physically wrong, I think Price will be fine.
This is a much better hitting team than last year's and if the pitching can be straightened out - and I think it can - this is going to be a fun season.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 21, 2016 18:40:00 GMT -5
Farrell saying Koji was only available if the Red Sox were winning is just so mind boggling. Maybe they would have had a chance to be winning if William Cuevas didn't pitch more than 2 innings and Noe Ramirez didn't replace him. Either Koji was available or he wasn't. If he's available, maybe give the Sox a chance, especially the way they were swinging the bats today a tie game was looking pretty promising.
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Post by bosox81 on Apr 21, 2016 18:41:22 GMT -5
Lovullo was smart to stay and I suspect that he will inherit heavenly earth...i.e. Sox Manager Price has not displayed his customary velocity or command. Hopefully things are ok. This is early. The bullpen needs more "ready" arms...to date same ol, same ol. How many games has the pen already lost??? Where do we rank among ML bullpens in ERA? Sure Smith will help if not irretrievably injured...but.... I remember people were ooing and ahhing about the bullpen this year with 2 acquisitions (ok one to date) and others downplayed the importance of added pen arms as marginally valuable but IMO we need another LH in place of Layne (hard thrower..think we would try harder to sign Miller if we could turn back the clock?) ..and maybe one other hard thrower. How about Moncada for Miller if we want to win this year? Kimbrel, Miller, & Smith?? Would that have won us a few more games already? The Yanks may not be going anywhere with a sub-standard offense and might like to build for their future. They already have Chapman and Betances, Shreve et al. They have the devil's surplus. I am not sold on Barnes. He needs to further develop good offspeed (see Betances). And...Noe must go...apologies to Cochran.... If DDo does this, my dislike for him would become exponentially high.
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Post by scottysmalls on Apr 21, 2016 18:46:21 GMT -5
On a more positive note, for everyone complaining about Betts and Bogaerts a couple days ago, their wRC+'s are now 100 and 101 respectively and climbing. And because some people have been saying he's cooked, Pedroia's is 105. Not amazing numbers all around, but it shows how quickly early season stats can change and, especially for Xander, with their defense these numbers would still make them all pretty dang good players if they never rise at all, which they should.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 21, 2016 19:11:08 GMT -5
Farrell saying Koji was only available if the Red Sox were winning is just so mind boggling. Maybe they would have had a chance to be winning if William Cuevas didn't pitch more than 2 innings and Noe Ramirez didn't replace him. Either Koji was available or he wasn't. If he's available, maybe give the Sox a chance, especially the way they were swinging the bats today a tie game was looking pretty promising. Yeah I'm fine with just saying he's not available but warming a guy up and not bringing him in is the worst possible thing he could do, especially with a guy who potentially doesn't have many bullets left in the clip.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 21, 2016 19:12:41 GMT -5
Lovullo was smart to stay and I suspect that he will inherit heavenly earth...i.e. Sox Manager Price has not displayed his customary velocity or command. Hopefully things are ok. This is early. The bullpen needs more "ready" arms...to date same ol, same ol. How many games has the pen already lost??? Where do we rank among ML bullpens in ERA? Sure Smith will help if not irretrievably injured...but.... I remember people were ooing and ahhing about the bullpen this year with 2 acquisitions (ok one to date) and others downplayed the importance of added pen arms as marginally valuable but IMO we need another LH in place of Layne (hard thrower..think we would try harder to sign Miller if we could turn back the clock?) ..and maybe one other hard thrower. How about Moncada for Miller if we want to win this year? Kimbrel, Miller, & Smith?? Would that have won us a few more games already? The Yanks may not be going anywhere with a sub-standard offense and might like to build for their future. They already have Chapman and Betances, Shreve et al. They have the devil's surplus. I am not sold on Barnes. He needs to further develop good offspeed (see Betances). And...Noe must go...apologies to Cochran.... If DDo does this, my dislike for him would become exponentially high. I would probably just start watching the Cubs at that point.
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Post by jmei on Apr 21, 2016 19:24:47 GMT -5
The fact that someone seriously proposed trading Moncada for a reliever on these forums just indicates I've not been proselytizing hard enough (God knows I try).
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Post by Smittyw on Apr 21, 2016 19:39:02 GMT -5
Yeah, but Moncada is "blocked" and Miller is "elite," also something something Will Middlebrooks and something something Ryan Lavarnway.
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Post by mandelbro on Apr 21, 2016 19:41:50 GMT -5
I've tried really hard to not pin things on the manager and to be measured in my hindsighting... but tonight was the final straw. To throw away a tie game like that when you're "THIS" close to taking it is unforgivable.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 21, 2016 19:45:19 GMT -5
Guidas. I noticed and wondered why you changed your avatar to Prince. Nice tribute, brother!! So sad. I was actually lucky enough to be in the front row for a show during the LoveSexy Tour. Shelia E threw a drumstick at me after I complimented her on her skills and assets, so to speak. Genius among us, gone far too soon.
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Post by larrycook on Apr 21, 2016 20:59:20 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but this team's play is blah.
At least last year after Farrell left, the team was exciting to watch, win or lose.
Ps: price's ball has lacked life since spring training. Maybe something is wrong but he is not snapping it off with the same gusto as we have seen previously.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 21, 2016 21:18:06 GMT -5
The fact that someone seriously proposed trading Moncada for a reliever on these forums just indicates I've not been proselytizing hard enough (God knows I try). Come on man, maybe it was a typo. Maybe he meant to write "Harper" and it came out wrong, happens all the time.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 21, 2016 22:01:57 GMT -5
The fact that someone seriously proposed trading Moncada for a reliever on these forums just indicates I've not been proselytizing hard enough (God knows I try). That's downright crazy. I'm still in favor of the Kimbrel deal, but I would have been extremely ticked off if any of Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Travis/Swihart had gone in a deal for Kimbrel or any other reliever.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 21, 2016 22:05:31 GMT -5
That's downright crazy. I'm still in favor of the Kimbrel deal, but I would have been extremely ticked off if any of Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Travis/Swihart had gone in a deal for Kimbrel or any other reliever. I like how you sneaked Travis (as in Sam Travis?) as if he was in the same level as the other guys. I also wouldn't trade Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Couch/Swihart for any of these guys (:
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 21, 2016 22:13:44 GMT -5
I have been on the fence regarding Farrell. Today I was actually at Fenway Park watching the game and I'm now off the fence. I was ticked off from the 7th inning on.
Sure David Price bears a lot of responsibility for the loss. I'd say JBJ does too. He was brutally overmatched all game, but I could defend Farrell not pinch-hitting Young for JBJ against the struggling lefty because at that point the game is tied, and if Young was inserted the Rays would bring in Ramirez and that matchup is bad for the Sox and results in a defensive downgrade from JBJ to Young and as bad as JBJ fulfilling his destiny of whiffing would be, at least Mookie still had a decent shot of getting a big hit to put the Sox ahead. So I could live with that.
But I spent most of the 7th inning wondering who Farrell was planning to have Layne pitch too as everybody was righty, and I couldn't believe that he was throwing William Cuevas to the wolves in his major league debut.
But I could live with Cuevas pitching the 7th. I figured we'd see Koji for the 8th if he was healthy and with yesterday off Kimbrel could pitch the 9th. It made sense. I figure maybe Ross could give them a batter or two, although I could understand if he wasn't available. What annoyed me is that Cuevas could have been utilized yesterday with a 4 run lead in tandem with Layne perhaps and the Sox could have had Tazawa available for today.
So in the 8th inning the Sox get away with two Cuevas outs and I think they're pressing their luck and with a man on 2nd, I'm thinking now is a great time to bring in Kimbrel (who apparently wasn't available), if Koji isn't available. Put your best man in to get four outs and at worst preserve the tie in a game where the offense is functioning well and threatening quite often to score.
Instead he inexplicably keeps Cuevas in to give up the go ahead run in predictable fashion and then he compounds the mistake by putting in Cuevas for the 9th and ignoring Layne against Kermeier and then at the height of ridiculousness he has Layne warming yet again, but when Dickerson pinch-hits with a chance to totally put the game away he keeps in Ramirez instead of going to Layne and naturally Dickerson sends most of the crowd to the exits with a put away double to make it 12-8.
It's still early but if the Sox are doing what they're doing by June 1st, I'd be cool with a change from Farrell to Lovullo.
It's kind of like when the Yankees fired combustible Billy Martin in 1978 and replaced him with quiet Bob Lemon, they got hot and won the Series. Eventually once he cleaned up Martin's mess, he was unable to clean up his own mess and failed. Not so different from Farrell who cleaned up Bobby Valentine's mess but is clueless about how to clean up his own mess. It's nearing time for a change!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 21, 2016 22:15:01 GMT -5
That's downright crazy. I'm still in favor of the Kimbrel deal, but I would have been extremely ticked off if any of Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Travis/Swihart had gone in a deal for Kimbrel or any other reliever. I like how you sneaked Travis (as in Sam Travis?) as if he was in the same level as the other guys. I also wouldn't trade Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Couch/Swihart for any of these guys (: Sam Travis has always been a binkie of mine. I always have thought that his hit tool is very good and I believe his power will come. I think of him as a .300 hitter with 20 HR, 45 double power. I drink the Sam Travis kool-aid, just so you know.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 21, 2016 23:08:24 GMT -5
That's downright crazy. I'm still in favor of the Kimbrel deal, but I would have been extremely ticked off if any of Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Travis/Swihart had gone in a deal for Kimbrel or any other reliever. I like how you sneaked Travis (as in Sam Travis?) as if he was in the same level as the other guys. I also wouldn't trade Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Couch/Swihart for any of these guys (: Why isn't he? The guy just hits. At 22 he was a monster in spring training and is hitting .339 .377 ops, and .482 slg at AAA. If Keith Law is right about above average D at 1B I see no reason he's not in that group.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 21, 2016 23:13:30 GMT -5
I like how you sneaked Travis (as in Sam Travis?) as if he was in the same level as the other guys. I also wouldn't trade Moncada/Benintendi/Espinoza/Devers/Couch/Swihart for any of these guys (: Why isn't he? The guy just hits. At 22 he was a monster in spring training and is hitting .339 .377 ops, and .482 slg at AAA. If Keith Law is right about above average D at 1B I see no reason he's not in that group. Yeah he's on everyone's Top 20 like the other guys.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 21, 2016 23:24:46 GMT -5
Why isn't he? The guy just hits. At 22 he was a monster in spring training and is hitting .339 .377 ops, and .482 slg at AAA. If Keith Law is right about above average D at 1B I see no reason he's not in that group. Yeah he's on everyone's Top 20 like the other guys. He's undervalued. Just look at the player, not his ranking. Outside him playing 1B, why isn't he in that group? He's 22 and might be major league ready, if not he's very close.
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