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4/19-4/21 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by bosox81 on Apr 19, 2016 20:56:40 GMT -5
Whew. Crisis averted.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Apr 19, 2016 20:58:09 GMT -5
No doubt....early returns on Kimbrel have been less than impressive.
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Post by templeusox on Apr 19, 2016 21:03:14 GMT -5
Prediction: Pedroia won't hit a ball hard all year. He's toast.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Apr 19, 2016 21:03:36 GMT -5
Wow. Can't do anything on offense - a shame to waste a great effort by the pen.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Apr 19, 2016 21:04:41 GMT -5
God helps us all.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Apr 19, 2016 21:05:17 GMT -5
Bogaerts, agreed. Bradley I wasn't referring to 2014 (my post was wordy, my bad). I meant 2013, which totally derailed him for quite a while. Bradley was definitely rushed going into 2013, but then they optioned him to the minors and he raked in AAA. By 2014, everyone thought he was the heir apparent to Ellsbury and no one was concerned about his being "derailed" by his 50 PA cameo in 2013. Yes, but getting back to my original point, I just don't think you can look at this 3 or 4 year span and say we've done a good job helping the young guys adjust. Mookie came up and raked, and Shaw looks great, but the lows have seemed pretty prolonged. We were spoiled with how guys like Ells, Pedroia, Lester, ect came up and produced in the "generation" before that though. I don't mind him as much as you do. Got some hope for him as a middle reliever this year. So we're doomed.
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bosox
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Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Apr 19, 2016 21:05:25 GMT -5
Damn. Barnes - he can give up some shots.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 19, 2016 21:06:12 GMT -5
Barnes then Lane. Ugh.
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Post by kevfc89 on Apr 19, 2016 21:06:19 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've had this account for a while but only posted a few times; sorry for the length of this. With the Bogaerts and Betts discussions, I have some ideas I just want to put out there. I believe that the Sox hitting coaches have changed these guys a lot mechanically (moreso with Xander), and I don't think it's to their ultimate benefit. Watch April 2014 footage of Xander (like that homer against Sale), and he was so much more quiet at the plate, balanced, crouched more, etc. Even his Pawtucket footage (can watch via milb.com), I watch that and see him raking balls to all fields in a way he hasn't often done so at the major league level. He had more hand movement in Pawtucket, but held his hands and bat in a completely different way then he does now.
Honestly, the Xander of today looks nothing at all like how he used to at the plate. He's standing upright, with an open stance, has a weird bat waggle, and then steps into the plate in a way that often looks ubalanced. From interviews and other information I've deduced that he works with Victor Rodriguez a lot, and in my opinion, instead of working on his approach and eye to lay off the outside pitch, they changed him a lot mechanically. I think it might be unlikely for him to recover his power and patience without real changes in approach and mechanics.
Also, with Mookie if you watch him in 2014 minors and majors footage he had a much more exaggerated bat waggle. He had a bat tilt at the end of it too (kind of like Donaldson's if you watch him, who's perfected it; Javier Baez might be an example of it going too far). That created the more whip-like effect. He still did it last year but it was reduced, and this year it looks to be reduced even more, where it now looks more like a timing mechanism than creating that whip in his bat. It's probably not a big deal with Mookie because he still has such quick hands, but I think it's a mistake for hitting coaches to be changing these players' hitting mechanics, their natural swings that worked for them all throughout the minors as they raked. Maybe Mookie's exaggerated load let him track the ball better out of the pitcher's hand - you just don't know how altering them so much might affect them at them at the plate.
I believe that is where the coaching has let them down; I'm no expert on swing mechanics, but I've done a lot of research as this has been something bothering me as I've noticed the changes in two prospects who I was fully invested in as they made their way through the minors and into the majors. Sorry again for the length of this, but wasn't sure where else to post it and people were talking about Betts and Bogaerts here.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Apr 19, 2016 21:07:55 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've had this account for a while but only posted a few times; sorry for the length of this. With the Bogaerts and Betts discussions, I have some ideas I just want to put out there. I believe that the Sox hitting coaches have changed these guys a lot mechanically (moreso with Xander), and I don't think it's to their ultimate benefit. Watch April 2014 footage of Xander (like that homer against Sale), and he was so much more quiet at the plate, balanced, crouched more, etc. Even his Pawtucket footage (can watch via milb.com), I watch that and see him raking balls to all fields in a way he hasn't often done so at the major league level. He had more hand movement in Pawtucket, but held his hands and bat in a completely different way then he does now. Honestly, the Xander of today looks nothing at all like how he used to at the plate. He's standing upright, with an open stance, has a weird bat waggle, and then steps into the plate in a way that often looks ubalanced. From interviews and other information I've deduced that he works with Victor Rodriguez a lot, and in my opinion, instead of working on his approach and eye to lay off the outside pitch, they changed him a lot mechanically. I think it might be unlikely for him to recover his power and patience without real changes in approach and mechanics. Also, with Mookie if you watch him in 2014 minors and majors footage he had a much more exaggerated bat waggle. He had a bat tilt at the end of it too (kind of like Donaldson's if you watch him, who's perfected it; Javier Baez might be an example of it going too far). That created the more whip-like effect. He still did it last year but it was reduced, and this year it looks to be reduced even more, where it now looks more like a timing mechanism than creating that whip in his bat. It's probably not a big deal with Mookie because he still has such quick hands, but I think it's a mistake for hitting coaches to be changing these players' hitting mechanics, their natural swings that worked for them all throughout the minors as they raked. Maybe Mookie's exaggerated load let him track the ball better out of the pitcher's hand - you just don't know how altering them so much might affect them at them at the plate. I believe that is where the coaching has let them down; I'm no expert on swing mechanics, but I've done a lot of research as this has been something bothering me as I've noticed the changes in two prospects who I was fully invested in as they made their way through the minors and into the majors. Sorry again for the length of this, but wasn't sure where else to post it and people were talking about Betts and Bogaerts here. Welcome and nice first post! I also wholeheartedly agree that Bogaerts' swing is hrs to stomach compared to what it used to be. He's made himself a good player, but his wavy, powerless swing is depressing.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Apr 19, 2016 21:08:14 GMT -5
Barnes has to go.
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Post by templeusox on Apr 19, 2016 21:08:51 GMT -5
Lol Red Sox.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Apr 19, 2016 21:08:58 GMT -5
Yep! Electric fastball.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Apr 19, 2016 21:14:09 GMT -5
Maybe, but it's three simultaneous cold streaks in three players who showed above average plate discipline as minor leaguers, showed lower than expected plate discipline last year, even as things were going well, and have seen their plate discipline completely collapse this year. I wouldn't rule out deeper systemic problems within the organization so quickly. EDIT: oops, meant to reply to jmei's post; sorry for any confusion. Blaming individual players SSS struggles on the coaching staff seems a bit absurd. I dislike Farrell as much as the next guy but 1) on average players don't hit as well in the majors as they do in the minors because major league competition is just better 2) regardless of how the coaches are coaching, the players are the ones who have to execute during the game. I didn't blame it on anyone. I just pointed out that from 2014 to 2015 to 2016 (SSS), we now have enough data exhibiting a pattern that we shouldn't immediately rule out a systemic problem within the organization.
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Post by jmei on Apr 19, 2016 21:14:28 GMT -5
Tough luck on that double-- he had Forsythe fooled.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 19, 2016 21:14:29 GMT -5
Remember that time when people blamed a loss on Farrell because he used Noe instead of Matt Barnes? I do.
Edit: to be perfectly clear, they both suck.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Apr 19, 2016 21:14:43 GMT -5
I hate to break it to everyone but Barnes is just a terrible pitcher.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Apr 19, 2016 21:14:47 GMT -5
So when Carson Smith gets back, we ship the Joe Kelly of the BP to AAA right?
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Post by kevfc89 on Apr 19, 2016 21:15:25 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've had this account for a while but only posted a few times; sorry for the length of this. With the Bogaerts and Betts discussions, I have some ideas I just want to put out there. I believe that the Sox hitting coaches have changed these guys a lot mechanically (moreso with Xander), and I don't think it's to their ultimate benefit. Watch April 2014 footage of Xander (like that homer against Sale), and he was so much more quiet at the plate, balanced, crouched more, etc. Even his Pawtucket footage (can watch via milb.com), I watch that and see him raking balls to all fields in a way he hasn't often done so at the major league level. He had more hand movement in Pawtucket, but held his hands and bat in a completely different way then he does now. Honestly, the Xander of today looks nothing at all like how he used to at the plate. He's standing upright, with an open stance, has a weird bat waggle, and then steps into the plate in a way that often looks ubalanced. From interviews and other information I've deduced that he works with Victor Rodriguez a lot, and in my opinion, instead of working on his approach and eye to lay off the outside pitch, they changed him a lot mechanically. I think it might be unlikely for him to recover his power and patience without real changes in approach and mechanics. Also, with Mookie if you watch him in 2014 minors and majors footage he had a much more exaggerated bat waggle. He had a bat tilt at the end of it too (kind of like Donaldson's if you watch him, who's perfected it; Javier Baez might be an example of it going too far). That created the more whip-like effect. He still did it last year but it was reduced, and this year it looks to be reduced even more, where it now looks more like a timing mechanism than creating that whip in his bat. It's probably not a big deal with Mookie because he still has such quick hands, but I think it's a mistake for hitting coaches to be changing these players' hitting mechanics, their natural swings that worked for them all throughout the minors as they raked. Maybe Mookie's exaggerated load let him track the ball better out of the pitcher's hand - you just don't know how altering them so much might affect them at them at the plate. I believe that is where the coaching has let them down; I'm no expert on swing mechanics, but I've done a lot of research as this has been something bothering me as I've noticed the changes in two prospects who I was fully invested in as they made their way through the minors and into the majors. Sorry again for the length of this, but wasn't sure where else to post it and people were talking about Betts and Bogaerts here. Welcome and nice first post! I also wholeheartedly agree that Bogaerts' swing is hrs to stomach compared to what it used to be. He's made himself a good player, but his wavy, powerless swing is depressing. Thanks! Yea, he's made himself into a good player regardless (in a different way than people expected), but it feels like he's leaving so much on the table with the changes to his swing. It's depressing to think of that alternate reality where he fully optimized his skill set. I would love for someone who really understands swings and mechanics to compare Xander in Pawtucket to what he looks like now and really break down the changes. In my opinion, not enough has been said about this or people haven't noticed it too much.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 19, 2016 21:15:57 GMT -5
So when Carson Smith gets back, we ship the Joe Kelly of the BP to AAA right? Yeah, he's lost his job to Hembree already.
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Post by kevfc89 on Apr 19, 2016 21:16:55 GMT -5
And I'm not gonna quote that again, sorry for the huge wall of words everyone! Man, Barnes : (
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Post by jmei on Apr 19, 2016 21:18:11 GMT -5
Blaming individual players SSS struggles on the coaching staff seems a bit absurd. I dislike Farrell as much as the next guy but 1) on average players don't hit as well in the majors as they do in the minors because major league competition is just better 2) regardless of how the coaches are coaching, the players are the ones who have to execute during the game. I didn't blame it on anyone. I just pointed out that from 2014 to 2015 to 2016 (SSS), we now have enough data exhibiting a pattern that we shouldn't immediately rule out a systemic problem within the organization. We have two players who had bad debut years (both of whom then bounced back and had pretty good sophomore years). Not sure that's a pattern. We can't rule out a systemic problem within the organization, but it's also way too early to suggest that there is a systemic problem with the organization. You could just as well blame Theo/Maddon for the struggles of Addison Russell and Jorge Soler and Javier Baez.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Apr 19, 2016 21:20:11 GMT -5
Farrell is a highly decent guy and was the perfect manager for this team in 2013 after the Bobby V. fiasco. But I think the leash is getting shorter. He's had two straight last-place finishes and the team is off to a sluggish start this year. DDom didn't hire him, saw the team perform well under Lovullo and can't be in agreement with some of JF's in-game moves.
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Post by dcsoxfan on Apr 19, 2016 21:22:42 GMT -5
I didn't blame it on anyone. I just pointed out that from 2014 to 2015 to 2016 (SSS), we now have enough data exhibiting a pattern that we shouldn't immediately rule out a systemic problem within the organization. We have two players who had bad debut years (both of whom then bounced back and had pretty good sophomore years). Not sure that's a pattern. We can't rule out a systemic problem within the organization, but it's also way too early to suggest that there is a systemic problem with the organization. You could just as well blame Theo/Maddon for the struggles of Addison Russell and Jorge Soler and Javier Baez. It's way to early too conclude that the struggles of the Red Sox young players is systemic; it is not too early to wonder about it.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on Apr 19, 2016 21:23:01 GMT -5
Farrell is a highly decent guy … You know this how? His sound bites? Nick Cafardo? His choice of squeeze?
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