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Boston Celtics 2016-17 Season Discussion
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Post by ctfisher on May 19, 2017 8:16:13 GMT -5
Let's play a scenario where Danny cannot sign Hayward or another max guy... what should he do? I think you guys know where I stand as far as trading the picks go... I wouldn't trade either Nets pick at this point... I am not giving up the opportunity to potentially draft my own big 3 for a guy like Jimmy Butler (I watched him not compete in that Bulls series - thank you no thank you). Think about it: Fultz is compared to Westbrook and Harden Brown is like a young Butler Then next years draft is a deep one again but with 4/5 players instead of guards... how perfect is that? Seriously, we can't draw it up any more perfectly. Don't pass on that chance. As far as free agency goes at that point... If they cut Zeller and Mickey, and renounce the rights to all FA but KO, I think they should have about 20m in cap space and 3 open roster spots. They might bring back a guy like Amir on a 2 year deal with a team option on the second year... maybe they can get McGee away from Memphis with a big contract offer... maybe Greg Monroe's value will be lower and the Celtics will find value in his defense (pretty good last year) and rebounding combined with his good low post scoring... he can't shoot tho so that lack of range isn't what the Celtics do... second unit guy might be different... or maybe they can trade for Paul George on a one year rental without giving up a Nets pick. Kelly, Smart, our 2018 first and the Clippers or Memphis first. Pacers new regime may want young players and a fresh start. I don't think they're going to sign Hayward and then limiti him to 30 minutes a night, but beyond that, while I can see not wanting to give up this years pick for George, you're not getting him without at least throwing next years nets pick. There's no way they're taking a couple of solid young role players and a likely mid 1st for him- they're not the kings. If you don't want to deal either pick, you can't expect to make a deal for a star realistically Also, while you're entirely within your rights to not want butler on this team, i don't know what player you've been watching to say that he doesn't compete. The guy has been playing with one of the highest workloads in the league for the last couple years and has improved every single year, and he carried them in the 2nd halves of both of the first 2 games the way I remember things |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 8:17:44 GMT -5
Interesting tid bit...
7 of the 15 all-NBA players were taken outside he lottery. 3 were second round picks (Isaiah, Green, Jordan) and one was the last pick in the first rd (Butler).
One thing that Danny does as well as any GM is find NBA caliber players later in the draft.
Al Jefferson (15)
Delonte West (24)
Tony Allen (25)
Gerald Green (18)
Ryan Gomes (50)
Avery Bradley (19)
E'Twuan Moore (55)
Jared Sullinger (21)
Terry Rozier (16)
This list doesn't include other players acquired by some draft day trades like Rondo at 21 and Glen Davis at 35... they are essentially Celtics picks but not officially..
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 8:22:57 GMT -5
Let's play a scenario where Danny cannot sign Hayward or another max guy... what should he do? I think you guys know where I stand as far as trading the picks go... I wouldn't trade either Nets pick at this point... I am not giving up the opportunity to potentially draft my own big 3 for a guy like Jimmy Butler (I watched him not compete in that Bulls series - thank you no thank you). Think about it: Fultz is compared to Westbrook and Harden Brown is like a young Butler Then next years draft is a deep one again but with 4/5 players instead of guards... how perfect is that? Seriously, we can't draw it up any more perfectly. Don't pass on that chance. As far as free agency goes at that point... If they cut Zeller and Mickey, and renounce the rights to all FA but KO, I think they should have about 20m in cap space and 3 open roster spots. They might bring back a guy like Amir on a 2 year deal with a team option on the second year... maybe they can get McGee away from Memphis with a big contract offer... maybe Greg Monroe's value will be lower and the Celtics will find value in his defense (pretty good last year) and rebounding combined with his good low post scoring... he can't shoot tho so that lack of range isn't what the Celtics do... second unit guy might be different... or maybe they can trade for Paul George on a one year rental without giving up a Nets pick. Kelly, Smart, our 2018 first and the Clippers or Memphis first. Pacers new regime may want young players and a fresh start. I don't think they're going to sign Hayward and then limiti him to 30 minutes a night, but beyond that, while I can see not wanting to give up this years pick for George, you're not getting him without at least throwing next years nets pick. There's no way they're taking a couple of solid young role players and a likely mid 1st for him- they're not the kings. If you don't want to deal either pick, you can't expect to make a deal for a star realistically Also, while you're entirely within your rights to not want butler on this team, i don't know what player you've been watching to say that he doesn't compete. The guy has been playing with one of the highest workloads in the league for the last couple years and has improved every single year, and he carried them in the 2nd halves of both of the first 2 games the way I remember things You are right Butler was great the first two games, then a funny thing happened. Rondo got hurt, things got more difficult and he didn't rise to the occasion like a star player should. You may be right on George and likely are, BUT new management in Indy changes things as does him not getting All-NBA. He's now a true rental for a team and it's going to be hard to get fair value and they cannot let him walk for nothing. Maybe in this instance they are better off waiting for the trade deadline but they worsen their own pick by doing that and likely lessen the return even more. You don't get high lottery picks for a one year rental and losing him for nothing is a disaster for them. |
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Post by digit on May 19, 2017 8:33:51 GMT -5
Question, would you trade the Memphis pick? I think Memphis is going to play just well enough to retain that pick for a while, but there's a point where it becomes unrestricted.
I wouldn't trade for Butler, not because I don't think he's that good, but because I think we'd be getting maybe two years of his prime, and then be stuck with paying him too much money while he slides down rapidly.
Paul George interests me more, but the price can't be that high on him if he's a true rental. At this point, though, he seems to be more about getting out of Indiana than about playing for the Lakers, so there's always a chance you could sign him if he loves being a Celtic. (Get Paul Pierce and Larry Bird to talk to him about what it's like in Boston...)
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 19, 2017 8:50:02 GMT -5
I'm almost at the point where I just want the Celtics to extend Smart because of his age and maybe Bradley since he's young enough to be still good in 2-3 years.
I want to see the slow progression. This number one seeded team isn't close still. In 2-3 years LeBron should be declining, hopefully. Don't trade the other Brooklyn pick. Don't use the cap space on a Blake Griffin type.
If by some miracle that Durant or Hayward wants to come here, then you can rethink everything and go for it but other then that, stay put.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 8:51:47 GMT -5
Really don't think Danny wants to go all in. Build to be #2 next year (ready to punch should LeBron slip). Build to be #1 post LeBron. Best of both worlds.
Adding Hayward, Fultz and finding a big accomplishes that.
If the window for more opens up, Danny can pounce.
LAL makes the most sense for PG13. Indy has the best chance to maximize value by trading him to a team he'll resign with. Question is if LAL wants to do that or just wait for Free Agency.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 8:55:16 GMT -5
I'm almost at the point where I just want the Celtics to extend Smart because of his age and maybe Bradley since he's young enough to be still good in 2-3 years. I want to see the slow progression. This number one seeded team isn't close still. In 2-3 years LeBron should be declining, hopefully. Don't trade the other Brooklyn pick. Don't use the cap space on a Blake Griffin type. If by some miracle that Durant or Hayward wants to come here, then you can rethink everything and go for it but other then that, stay put. So you want them to let Thomas walk? |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 19, 2017 8:57:00 GMT -5
I'm almost at the point where I just want the Celtics to extend Smart because of his age and maybe Bradley since he's young enough to be still good in 2-3 years. I want to see the slow progression. This number one seeded team isn't close still. In 2-3 years LeBron should be declining, hopefully. Don't trade the other Brooklyn pick. Don't use the cap space on a Blake Griffin type. If by some miracle that Durant or Hayward wants to come here, then you can rethink everything and go for it but other then that, stay put. So you want them to let Thomas walk? You can trade Thomas or let him walk, really won't change the outlook in the long-term future unless Danny picks someones pocket in yet another trade (again). Maybe Thomas can help develop Fultz if you don't trade Thomas, who knows? |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 19, 2017 10:20:39 GMT -5
I'm not against trading Smart or Rozier for picks, I am against trading Bradley and Crowder for unknown picks down the road. That's mainly because of the difference in values I place on Bradley and Crowder.
I've watched Fultz play 3 times and he looks like Harden to a degree. I don't see Westbrook at all, a player like Fox is more like Westbrook in my opinion.
While Brown's upside could be Butler, wow that's a jump to say he's a young Butler. He has a very long way to go, to get to Butler's level.
I fully expect that we don't sign a max free agent. I love dreaming on Hayward, but he's on a good young team that drafted him. They can also offer him more money and years than anyone else. Hayward is probably the only guy worth gutting a bunch of assets for. I'm thinking we have maybe a 25% chance at him. I really hope I'm dead wrong because he could change everything.
Now if we don't get him, I'm not sure we gut the team at all to sign a free agent. I think a trade becomes our #1 option. We wouldn't be worried about cap room now. You could use Zeller, Rozier and/or Smart and trade for a big. Maybe a late first depending on the player. An example would be Chandler. Bring over both Zizic and Yabu. Then use the MLE to bring in another free agent. It might be better to stay over the cap, than try and get under it.
I just look at the free agents and don't see many players worth losing depth and trade assets like Zeller for. I like Monroe, he would help our rebounding and scoring in the paint but he doesn't play great D. He's also going to cost a ton. If you keep KO. The big we add has to be a defensive rebounding type guy. Now Ibaka fits that mold, but I'm not sure Danny likes him. Horford, Ibaka, and KO would be a huge upgrade for this team. The thing is cost, Ibaka could get more than 20 million. If you can't get Hayward I want to bring over Zizic and Yabu. Not sure you can do that by keeping KO and signing Ibaka.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 10:34:27 GMT -5
Kevin O'Connor had an interesting point on the Ringer. Without the Super Max, Utah advantage might not be as big as you might think.
Yes, they can offer the extra year at more money and the eXtra 20-30 for that 5th year is nothing to sneeze at.
But if you're Hayward, do you even sign a contract that gets you to the 4th year, let alone the 5th? The article suggests that whether he stays or goes, he should sign a 3 yr deal and then become a free agent again when a) He's eligible for the highest non-DPVE extension and b) the cap could be upwards of 120Mn.
In that scenario, the difference between in money made would be a couple of million. So it could come down to what he believes to be the best path to a ring.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 11:34:33 GMT -5
Also, Utah is kind of maxed out other than internal growth. Which they could have but when looking at the two situation Utah and Boston are very similar right now if you factor Hayward in Utah and no additions to Boston. But Hayward added to Boston plus the young picks isn't even close. That's why I don't see how people try to say he's in a similar spot staying in Utah... he's really not.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 11:44:01 GMT -5
I don't think it's a stretch at all to refer to Brown as a young Jimmy Butler. That in no means implies he's as good at Butler is right now. It's hard to judge Brown against other people's rookie years statistically because of the team he was on and the role he played. He had a very good year and he improved throughout. He's been impressive in the playoffs. Sure you need to project him but man he looks legit.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 11:49:07 GMT -5
So you want them to let Thomas walk? You can trade Thomas or let him walk, really won't change the outlook in the long-term future unless Danny picks someones pocket in yet another trade (again). Maybe Thomas can help develop Fultz if you don't trade Thomas, who knows? Trading Thomas off of next years team would need to bring back a great return. Isaiah may want a short term deal thinking he can get to the next level salary wise so maybe he bites on a 2 year deal with a player opt out. |
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 12:40:34 GMT -5
Jackie McMullen was on Bob Ryans podcast and said that Danny offered up Thomas during last year's draft for an additional lottery pick.
I'm shocked that it took a year for this to come out so take it with a grain.
Celticsblog retweeted a link to the pod if you're interested.
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Post by telluricrook on May 19, 2017 14:09:19 GMT -5
Jackie McMullen was on Bob Ryans podcast and said that Danny offered up Thomas during last year's draft for an additional lottery pick. I'm shocked that it took a year for this to come out so take it with a grain. Celticsblog retweeted a link to the pod if you're interested. So they wanted to get an extra lottery pick so they can trade the #3 pick for Butler and maybe lure in Durant and they thought they would be able to get Brown with another lottery pick because the highest he was projected to go was 9th. They were not able to Trade IT but they held on to the #3 pick. The biggest thing out of this little story is how much they like Jaylen Brown. |
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Post by digit on May 19, 2017 14:39:08 GMT -5
In that scenario, wouldn't that have made Marcus Smart the starting point guard?
A Butler/Brown would have been interesting, but I think it wouldn't have happened because Chicago would be demanding still more.
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Post by telluricrook on May 19, 2017 16:50:54 GMT -5
Omg! Everyone is talking about Markelles NCAA record. UCLA, Oregon,and Arizona and maybe even USC were all better teams and 3 of those 4 teams were loaded with NBA prospects.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 19, 2017 17:01:24 GMT -5
Guys I think you're selling Utah short because you want Hayward. If you look at both teams who has the best player? For me it's Gobert, the guys 24 years old and already a monster. By advanced stats he's better than Hayward and hasn't yet hit his prime. Who would you rather play with for the next 4-5 years, Thomas or Gobert?
They have good young players like Hood and Favors. They have young guys with upside like Lyles and Exum. They also have two first round picks and have had great success later in first round getting guys like Gobert and Hood.
That's also a team that's committed 100% to winning at the cost of developing young players like Lyles and Exum. Something the Celtics haven't done. Utah traded it's lottery pick to get Hill and made second round of playoffs. I'm not complaining about the Celtics, just showing you what a Veteran player in his prime is thinking about. That's winning right now. Danny says I'm not trading any future assets for rentals to help us win now is the type of think veteran players remember.
While I'm sure having a bunch of young high upside players doesn't hurt you, I'm not sure it helps in recruiting like you think it does. Does Brown take 5 years like Hayward did to become a star level player if he ever does? How quickly does Fultz make an impact? A guy like Hayward wants to win starting next year his age 27 season. He's not thinking about how good are young guys can be in 3-4 years. I'm sure he would much rather Danny trade those guys for Vets that are currently in there prime.
You have to look at this from Haywards point of view, not our point of view. I hope I'm wrong but it's not nearly the slam dunk a bunch of you think it is. Danny's best selling point would be that he would make a trade to win now if Heyward signs. Not that we have a bunch of high upside young players, that could be really good in a few years. Just think about LeBron going to Cleveland. Wiggins is a great young player, but he wanted to play with a vet that was in his prime like Love. He wanted to win that year, not wait on a young guy to develop, with the chance he doesn't become the player everyone thought he would.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 17:14:17 GMT -5
But it's true that if he resigns with Utah, they can really only return the same team in a tougher conference. Maybe they can trade Favors/Lyles and Exum for an upgrade?
Meanwhile, joining Boston vastly improves an ECF team. It's status quo (counting only on internal improvement) vs a team that can add elite pieces (or, at least elite potential).
Gobert, for sure is the best player currently. Can't argue that.
When Utah traded a late lotto pick (in what we all agree was a week draft on paper) for Hill it was a good move. It was also one motivated by desperation. Utah knows if they don't keep Hayward, it could be difficult to surround Gobert with talent. That wasn't to win. It was to prove something to Hayward.
Boston didnt have to do that.
If we are selling Utah short (maybe), I still think you are selling players and agents short in their ability to see what moves mean and what the different teams are building.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 17:21:35 GMT -5
Oh and they aren't committed to winning? Didn't they sit Jaylen early? Aren't they sitting Rozier now?
Also, did Utah make a splash at the deadline? They have Lyles, Exum and even Hood (assuming a wing might have been a target) to upgrade and they didn't do anything either.
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Post by texs31 on May 19, 2017 17:42:58 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, there is a very real lure to staying in Utah. Good team. Comfortable situation. Technically more money (and maybe significant if he just wants the security of the longest contact in his next deal).
But the idea that Utah is committed to winning over development and Boston isn't? I don't buy it. Just bc Danny has the ability to play both ends and other teams dont, will not be held against him, imo.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 19, 2017 19:56:07 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, there is a very real lure to staying in Utah. Good team. Comfortable situation. Technically more money (and maybe significant if he just wants the security of the longest contact in his next deal). But the idea that Utah is committed to winning over development and Boston isn't? I don't buy it. Just bc Danny has the ability to play both ends and other teams dont, will not be held against him, imo. You can't play both ends and say your 100% committed to winning over development. They have had success and I'm not saying long-term it isn't the right play. The thing is they clearly were giving young guys like Rozier and Brown minutes to develop them, when Vets could have most likely helped you more. I'm surprised you're actually trying to argue against that. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 19, 2017 20:16:17 GMT -5
LeBron is literally having his way with the Celtics. Draft and develop, wait for LeBron to decline.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 20:16:51 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, there is a very real lure to staying in Utah. Good team. Comfortable situation. Technically more money (and maybe significant if he just wants the security of the longest contact in his next deal). But the idea that Utah is committed to winning over development and Boston isn't? I don't buy it. Just bc Danny has the ability to play both ends and other teams dont, will not be held against him, imo. You can't play both ends and say your 100% committed to winning over development. They have had success and I'm not saying long-term it isn't the right play. The thing is they clearly were giving young guys like Rozier and Brown minutes to develop them, when Vets could have most likely helped you more. I'm surprised you're actually trying to argue against that. They won 53 games and were the one seed. What vets could they have given more minutes to and won more games? How many more? 2-3? I mean cmon you can't argue this 53 win team sacrificed wins because they didn't give more minutes to.... Gerald Green? |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 19, 2017 20:19:49 GMT -5
Btw there is almost no way Exum is staying in Utah... he's been buried there and every time
He shows signs he takes steps back and they don't seem very willing to let him play. I find it hard to believe Favors stays there either he's going to want more money than he's shown he's worth. Utah has been the darling of all the prognosticators for years and they've always come up short. Maybe I'm selling them short but I don't see a future powerhouse team there.
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