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2016-2017 Red Sox Offseason (Non-Manager) Discussion
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 8, 2016 10:55:48 GMT -5
For two reasons. 1) If the rules don't change, Napoli would cost the Sox a 1st round pick, and that's a big deal. A signing of Beltran wouldn't do that to the Red Sox. 2) Napoli could very well struggle. He's hit or miss. He was having a lousy year when the Sox dealt him in 2015. He struggled mightily in Sept and October and he is getting older. Without a draft pick attached you might gamble on that, but I personally wouldn't if one is attached. Napoli wasn't offered a QO-- won't cost them a pick. Oh man, I feel stupid. I simply assumed (yup, shouldn't do that) that Cleveland would at least give him the QO so they could get a draft pick for him. I know Cleveland isn't one of the bigger payrolls in the game, but for one year I thought they'd try to keep one of their best offensive players or at least get a draft pick if that's still in the rules by December. That changes my answer a little, but not a lot. I like Napoli, but I don't see him duplicating the year he had and it would help the Sox if the guy replacing Ortiz was a lefthanded bat. Napoli wouldn't be one of my top choices. With him I always wonder when .239 becomes .215 and the homers and walks fall off while the strike outs pile up. As a free agent I think Napoli would get 2 years somewhere. I'd prefer the Sox sign whoever they sign for just one year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 13:25:45 GMT -5
So as I'm gauging the interest from my perspective and view, this would be the target of players listed in this priority-
1) JD Martinez (trade)
2) Greg Holland
3) Kendrys Morales
4) Koji Uehara
5) Edwin Encarnacion
6) Carlos Beltran
I truly believe Beltran is the last option on the list. He's the last guy the Sox should go to as a option, I really don't like his bat anymore to begin with and he can't play the field at all.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 8, 2016 13:32:04 GMT -5
I honestly can't think of a single thing Kendrys Morales is better at than Carlos Beltran. If you think there's going to be a big gap in how much money you get, I guess that's one thing. But Morales is just flat-out worse at baseball.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 13:40:09 GMT -5
I honestly can't think of a single thing Kendrys Morales is better at than Carlos Beltran. If you think there's going to be a big gap in how much money you get, I guess that's one thing. But Morales is just flat-out worse at baseball. Well I guess he can hit more homeruns.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 8, 2016 14:01:16 GMT -5
I honestly can't think of a single thing Kendrys Morales is better at than Carlos Beltran. If you think there's going to be a big gap in how much money you get, I guess that's one thing. But Morales is just flat-out worse at baseball. Well I guess he can hit more homeruns. Beltran hit 29 HRs last year and Morales hit 30, but Beltran had an OPS 55 points higher. He's just a more complete hitter. Why so much dislike for a HOF talent in Beltran?
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 8, 2016 14:01:33 GMT -5
Beltran homered every 20.45 plate appearances last year, Morales every 20.60.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 14:10:58 GMT -5
Well I guess he can hit more homeruns. Beltran hit 29 HRs last year and Morales hit 30, but Beltran had an OPS 55 points higher. He's just a more complete hitter. Why so much dislike for a HOF talent in Beltran? Because he's 40. All players fall off a cliff eventually.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 14:12:52 GMT -5
Beltran homered every 20.45 plate appearances last year, Morales every 20.60. Well Beltran was hitting in left handed friendly parks and good homerun parks in general with the Yankees and Rangers. Morales was hitting in one of the most pitcher friendly parks with the Royals.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 8, 2016 14:20:33 GMT -5
Beltran hit 29 HRs last year and Morales hit 30, but Beltran had an OPS 55 points higher. He's just a more complete hitter. Why so much dislike for a HOF talent in Beltran? Because he's 40. All players fall off a cliff eventually. Ortiz just had a great age 40 season. It will be a short deal, with little risk. If he sucks by mid season you can replace him with Moncada or Travis. I would rather bet on elite talent, than ok talent like Morales. Morales could fall off that cliff next year, you just don't know. Julio Franco played till he was what 50?
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Post by Guidas on Nov 8, 2016 14:27:52 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 14:33:57 GMT -5
Because he's 40. All players fall off a cliff eventually. Ortiz just had a great age 40 season. It will be a short deal, with little risk. If he sucks by mid season you can replace him with Moncada or Travis. I would rather bet on elite talent, than ok talent like Morales. Morales could fall off that cliff next year, you just don't know. Julio Franco played till he was what 50? You're still paying 10+ million a year on a guy who is injury prone and can't play a position anymore. This would be my last option. Btw Ortiz is a outliar of all players and is a HOF. Beltran is a borderline HOF player. Stop using this as a comparison, it's unfair to Beltran. Julio Franco was a freak of nature.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 15:13:01 GMT -5
I'll still maintain the fact that I think Sam Travis could come close to replicating the same type of production to Beltran this coming year if he played the full year in Fenway park for 1/10th of the cost. Ohh and Sam Travis can actually play a position (first base)....
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 8, 2016 15:18:26 GMT -5
Ortiz just had a great age 40 season. It will be a short deal, with little risk. If he sucks by mid season you can replace him with Moncada or Travis. I would rather bet on elite talent, than ok talent like Morales. Morales could fall off that cliff next year, you just don't know. Julio Franco played till he was what 50? You're still paying 10+ million a year on a guy who is injury prone and can't play a position anymore. This would be my last option. Btw Ortiz is a outliar of all players and is a HOF. Beltran is a borderline HOF player. Stop using this as a comparison, it's unfair to Beltran. Julio Franco was a freak of nature. Morales is a DH only guy also and will cost close to 10 million, so what's your point? Injury prone? He's played 151, 145, 109, 133 and 155 games the last 5 years. Sorry but that's not what I would call injury prone. That's a ton of games. Sorry the facts prove you wrong, yet again. If you don't like him due to age that's fine, but there's no reason to start making false statements. Don't you get it that an age 39 season when you hit .295 and 29 HRs means he's an exception to father time, just like Ortiz. I'm not saying his Bat is at Ortiz's level, but he is aging very well just like Ortiz.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 15:53:37 GMT -5
You're still paying 10+ million a year on a guy who is injury prone and can't play a position anymore. This would be my last option. Btw Ortiz is a outliar of all players and is a HOF. Beltran is a borderline HOF player. Stop using this as a comparison, it's unfair to Beltran. Julio Franco was a freak of nature. Morales is a DH only guy also and will cost close to 10 million, so what's your point? Injury prone? He's played 151, 145, 109, 133 and 155 games the last 5 years. Sorry but that's not what I would call injury prone. That's a ton of games. Sorry the facts prove you wrong, yet again. If you don't like him due to age that's fine, but there's no reason to start making false statements. Don't you get it that an age 39 season when you hit .295 and 29 HRs means he's an exception to father time, just like Ortiz. I'm not saying his Bat is at Ortiz's level, but he is aging very well just like Ortiz. The last three years alone say that he IS injury prone and injuries don't get better due to age. This is the current facts. Morales can play first base, he just hasn't needed to the last couple of years because Hosmer is a better defender for the Royals.
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Post by sox207 on Nov 8, 2016 16:08:44 GMT -5
I'll still maintain the fact that I think Sam Travis could come close to replicating the same type of production to Beltran this coming year if he played the full year in Fenway park for 1/10th of the cost. Ohh and Sam Travis can actually play a position (first base).... Sam Travis isn't ready to play 1st defensively at a major league level and is coming off an injury.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 8, 2016 17:09:21 GMT -5
Ortiz just had a great age 40 season. It will be a short deal, with little risk. If he sucks by mid season you can replace him with Moncada or Travis. I would rather bet on elite talent, than ok talent like Morales. Morales could fall off that cliff next year, you just don't know. Julio Franco played till he was what 50? You're still paying 10+ million a year on a guy who is injury prone and can't play a position anymore. This would be my last option. Btw Ortiz is a outliar of all players and is a HOF. Beltran is a borderline HOF player. Stop using this as a comparison, it's unfair to Beltran. Julio Franco was a freak of nature. If you're talking about "outliers," the gap between Beltran and Ortiz is VASTLY larger than the gap in talent from Beltran to Morales, though. Beltran just did at 39 exactly what Ortiz did (although not quite as impressively). Morales has fewer than 10 WAR in his career. He's *never* been able to play a defensive position. He'll probably also want a longer deal. Beltran would have more value in trade on a shorter deal, should Moncada/Travis be ready mid-season.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 8, 2016 17:20:47 GMT -5
Morales is a DH only guy also and will cost close to 10 million, so what's your point? Injury prone? He's played 151, 145, 109, 133 and 155 games the last 5 years. Sorry but that's not what I would call injury prone. That's a ton of games. Sorry the facts prove you wrong, yet again. If you don't like him due to age that's fine, but there's no reason to start making false statements. Don't you get it that an age 39 season when you hit .295 and 29 HRs means he's an exception to father time, just like Ortiz. I'm not saying his Bat is at Ortiz's level, but he is aging very well just like Ortiz. The last three years alone say that he IS injury prone and injuries don't get better due to age. This is the current facts. Morales can play first base, he just hasn't needed to the last couple of years because Hosmer is a better defender for the Royals. Carlos Beltran has played 109, 133, and 155 games the past three years. Kendrys Morales has played 98, 158, 154. So Morales played 11 *fewer*, 25 more, and 1 *fewer*. He's averaged less than 5 games more per season. That's negligible. So your injury argument isn't valid. Kendrys Morales's defensive ratings the past 4 years are incredibly atrocious. He's one of the worst defensive players in baseball. At an easy position. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8610&position=1B/DH.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 17:21:25 GMT -5
You're still paying 10+ million a year on a guy who is injury prone and can't play a position anymore. This would be my last option. Btw Ortiz is a outliar of all players and is a HOF. Beltran is a borderline HOF player. Stop using this as a comparison, it's unfair to Beltran. Julio Franco was a freak of nature. If you're talking about "outliers," the gap between Beltran and Ortiz is VASTLY larger than the gap in talent from Beltran to Morales, though. Beltran just did at 39 exactly what Ortiz did (although not quite as impressively). Morales has fewer than 10 WAR in his career. He's *never* been able to play a defensive position. He'll probably also want a longer deal. Beltran would have more value in trade on a shorter deal, should Moncada/Travis be ready mid-season. If you ask me who do I like more on a one year deal, it would be Morales as of right now, but it's close. I realize that Morales will probably require more years however. So that, I will agree with you on. I don't like either player personally. I much prefer a trade for JD Martinez and I think he should be target number one this off season along with a 8th inning reliever. That's if Dave Dombrowski is true to his comments about seeking a short term replacement for the DH position.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 17:23:08 GMT -5
The last three years alone say that he IS injury prone and injuries don't get better due to age. This is the current facts. Morales can play first base, he just hasn't needed to the last couple of years because Hosmer is a better defender for the Royals. Carlos Beltran has played 109, 133, and 155 games the past three years. Kendrys Morales has played 98, 158, 154. So Morales played 11 *fewer*, 25 more, and 1 *fewer*. He's averaged less than 5 games more per season. That's negligible. So your injury argument isn't valid. Kendrys Morales's defensive ratings the past 4 years are incredibly atrocious. He's one of the worst defensive players in baseball. At an easy position. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8610&position=1B/DH. It is valid when you factor in age. I never said he could play a position well. I just said he could play there if need be. Beltran is just a DH at this point.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 8, 2016 17:28:36 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran has played 109, 133, and 155 games the past three years. Kendrys Morales has played 98, 158, 154. So Morales played 11 *fewer*, 25 more, and 1 *fewer*. He's averaged less than 5 games more per season. That's negligible. So your injury argument isn't valid. Kendrys Morales's defensive ratings the past 4 years are incredibly atrocious. He's one of the worst defensive players in baseball. At an easy position. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8610&position=1B/DH. It is valid when you factor in age. I never said he could play a position well. I just said he could play there if need be. Beltran is just a DH at this point. It's not valid when you factor in age. Both can play defense, and both will be much, much worse than average. Players don't turn 40 and suddenly disintegrate when they go onto the field. If they send Beltran out defensively he doesn't suddenly detonate in a flash of light and leave a smoking crater on the field. Age has nothing to do with it. They're both bad fielders, Morales probably worse. BOTH can play defense if asked, and poorly. Neither should be on the field. Now, if you said that Morales "has experience" playing 1b, that's something (barely), although TBH Beltran probably could as well as Morales, because Morales is absolutely horrific.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 8, 2016 17:30:46 GMT -5
If you're talking about "outliers," the gap between Beltran and Ortiz is VASTLY larger than the gap in talent from Beltran to Morales, though. Beltran just did at 39 exactly what Ortiz did (although not quite as impressively). Morales has fewer than 10 WAR in his career. He's *never* been able to play a defensive position. He'll probably also want a longer deal. Beltran would have more value in trade on a shorter deal, should Moncada/Travis be ready mid-season. If you ask me who do I like more on a one year deal, it would be Morales as of right now, but it's close. I realize that Morales will probably require more years however. So that, I will agree with you on. I don't like either player personally. I much prefer a trade for JD Martinez and I think he should be target number one this off season along with a 8th inning reliever. That's if Dave Dombrowski is true to his comments about seeking a short term replacement for the DH position. Martinez might not be a "bad" idea, but he would be costly, and the upgrade from whoever they could sign (Beltran, Moss, Morales) to Martinez is small enough that it's probably not worth it. It really depends on what it would take to get him. But this isn't a team starved for offense.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 17:32:39 GMT -5
It is valid when you factor in age. I never said he could play a position well. I just said he could play there if need be. Beltran is just a DH at this point. It's not valid when you factor in age. Both can play defense, and both will be much, much worse than average. Players don't turn 40 and suddenly disintegrate when they go onto the field. If they send Beltran out defensively he doesn't suddenly detonate in a flash of light and leave a smoking crater on the field. Age has nothing to do with it. They're both bad fielders, Morales probably worse. BOTH can play defense if asked, and poorly. Neither should be on the field. Now, if you said that Morales "has experience" playing 1b, that's something (barely), although TBH Beltran probably could as well as Morales, because Morales is absolutely horrific. Age has absolutely everything to do with considering prior injury histories. Injuries take longer to recover when you're older. It is absolutely a valid argument when considering future performance.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 17:35:52 GMT -5
If you ask me who do I like more on a one year deal, it would be Morales as of right now, but it's close. I realize that Morales will probably require more years however. So that, I will agree with you on. I don't like either player personally. I much prefer a trade for JD Martinez and I think he should be target number one this off season along with a 8th inning reliever. That's if Dave Dombrowski is true to his comments about seeking a short term replacement for the DH position. Martinez might not be a "bad" idea, but he would be costly, and the upgrade from whoever they could sign (Beltran, Moss, Morales) to Martinez is small enough that it's probably not worth it. It really depends on what it would take to get him. But this isn't a team starved for offense. Martinez is absolutely a great get and could probably play first base, even if he hasn't played there before. He's on his last year of arbitration, it won't take all that much considering he's only a rental.
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Post by Coreno on Nov 8, 2016 17:37:12 GMT -5
Carlos Beltran has played 109, 133, and 155 games the past three years. Kendrys Morales has played 98, 158, 154. So Morales played 11 *fewer*, 25 more, and 1 *fewer*. He's averaged less than 5 games more per season. That's negligible. So your injury argument isn't valid. Kendrys Morales's defensive ratings the past 4 years are incredibly atrocious. He's one of the worst defensive players in baseball. At an easy position. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8610&position=1B/DH. It is valid when you factor in age. I never said he could play a position well. I just said he could play there if need be. Beltran is just a DH at this point. You do know that Beltran played about as many games in the field as he did at DH last year, right?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 8, 2016 17:38:37 GMT -5
It is valid when you factor in age. I never said he could play a position well. I just said he could play there if need be. Beltran is just a DH at this point. You do know that Beltran played about as many games in the field as he did at DH last year, right? Yeah and he couldn't move out there. I would want Chris Young in the outfield over Beltran by a large margin.
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