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Sale to BOS for Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Diaz
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,018
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Post by nomar on Dec 6, 2016 16:40:40 GMT -5
Is it pissing anyone else that the media/fans do not understand the concept of a signing bonus/minor league deal not mattering to the luxury tax threshold? John Henry isn't losing sleep over this. You're right that it doesn't matter for the luxury tax, but it's still cash that needs to be paid. There's close to $35M in payments that do not count for the luxury tax calculations but which the Red Sox still owe this year ($10.5M-ish in deferred Moncada bonus, $12M for Castillo, $11M for Craig). John Henry is a rich man, but that's still a lot of money that presumably eats into the baseball operations budget. Still, that's what they determined the price of having such a talent, regardless if used on field or in trade, was at the time of the Moncada signing. Why would the White Sox agree to eat that?
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 6, 2016 16:41:17 GMT -5
Come on it's Dombrowski; it'll be Devers at least, maybe Groome as well. Well your wrong on both counts, but I'm sure that won't slow your roll.
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Post by kungfuizzy on Dec 6, 2016 16:44:02 GMT -5
Brian MacPherson @brianmacp Dombrowski offers "a tip of my cap" to Cherington, Hazen, Sawdaye for the work that regime did to develop such depth in young talent. Guessing this will not assuage the anger of some here. Kind of like a politician saying, "Hey, I won, OK?" Yep. Kind of backhanded if you ask me. It's like what's going to happen when Trump inherits the infrastructure of this country that is vastly improved and tears it all down because it doesn't fit his logic of "great". Dombrowski is the same way. His logic is to strip farms and trade every prospect for major leaguers. Thank god he has thus far resisted trading Benetendi. But I'm sure once Curtis Granderson becomes available again he's going to the Mets.
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Post by thursty on Dec 6, 2016 16:47:24 GMT -5
Come on it's Dombrowski; it'll be Devers at least, maybe Groome as well. Well your wrong on both counts, but I'm sure that won't slow your roll. I realize that idiocy and you are on a first name basis, but you might try looking up the definition of "maybe" Having pointed that out, I'm relieved that Devers was spared (for now)
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 6, 2016 16:49:16 GMT -5
On the bright side, the rotation is now as dominant as you can get. 4 lefties though, that could be a problem. I know the old adage is you can never have enough pitching BUT, we now have Sale, Price, Porcello, Pomeranz, E-Rod, Wright and Buchholz and in the minors, Elias, Johnson and Owens so yes we could/should trade 1 of of Pomeranz, E-Rod, Wright or Buchholz. Buchholz (& Owens) for prospects (and maybe Utility IF) with Wright our swing man?
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Post by m1keyboots on Dec 6, 2016 16:52:44 GMT -5
In all honesty, in recent years we've kept from giving up the proven (albeit in hindsight) prospects in Betts, Bradley Bogs, and Beni, Erod, and to a lesser extent the catchers and Barnes. It also seemed like we drafted some potential ML arms in Sharywn and Broome as well as the the closer from Oregon.
What else are farm systems for apart from using them to acquire ML talent and chosing the best to polish into positionally needed ML talent. Seems like there has been a good mix of the two in the last 3 years.
I for one did not expect us to have Moncada, Dubon, Shaw, Espinoza, Kopech, Margot and Basabe among other all in our immediate future especially when some are blocked. The more I think about this trade the happier I am. Even if Moncada turns into Mike Trout, he's going to cost a lot of money by the time he gets to that point.
Price and Sale were arguably the two best available pitchers and we got em for a reasonable price. You have to give DD credit points for trying to upgrade the team without killing the farm system.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,018
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Post by nomar on Dec 6, 2016 16:53:44 GMT -5
This is really just an aside, but I'm happy we kept Dalbec. I like him a lot.
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Post by jmei on Dec 6, 2016 16:57:50 GMT -5
Well your wrong on both counts, but I'm sure that won't slow your roll. I realize that idiocy and you are on a first name basis, but you might try looking up the definition of "maybe" Having pointed that out, I'm relieved that Devers was spared (for now) This kind of personal attack is uncalled for. Please cut it out. Thanks.
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Post by spaceman1968 on Dec 6, 2016 16:59:45 GMT -5
I hate trading a kid who throws a 100 plus.
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 6, 2016 17:05:40 GMT -5
Yes, they have a very, very good major league roster, almost all of which is under control for at least the next two or three years. But teams like that still need at least reasonably productive farm systems. Tragedy always happens. They'll need prospects to account for injury and underperformance, either directly or as trade pieces. Devers and Groome are fine prospects, but they don't have another prospect who is even remotely close to the top 100 after that-- it's low-ceiling guys closer to the majors (Travis, Johnson, Hernandez) or guys with warts who are at least two to three years from the majors (Dalbec, Chatham, Ockimey). Yes. You said this more eloquently than I. From one to twenty-five, they are close to the Cubs as having baseball's best roster. But there is really no depth, either to help in case of injuries or to supplement in-season with a trade. And the chances both Devers and Groome turn into stars is pretty limited. That's why I said the current roster construction helps offset the farm somewhat, not that it negates it completely. If they had mostly older players with little to no control left, the weaker farm system depth would be more of an issue. I think this trade is more than fine. It's the 3rd pieces in the Thornburg and Kimbrel trades that hurt the depth. But I suspect he might deal off a pitcher or two (if counting Elias, Owens, and Johnson) to help with that depth (I hope, anyway). Ultimately, they've decided to cash in some of these chips, maybe a few more than they should. There's an ebb and flow to the strength of the farm system. It's been super strong. It's middle of the pack now. Hopefully, they'll build it back up. That will be the key.
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Post by burythehammer on Dec 6, 2016 17:12:42 GMT -5
This is not a bad deal but I would much rather keep Moncada and trade for Quintana instead.
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Post by thursty on Dec 6, 2016 17:17:56 GMT -5
I hate trading a kid who throws a 100 plus. They traded 2 such kids
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 6, 2016 17:21:42 GMT -5
There's a good chance he sold high on Espinoza
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Dec 6, 2016 17:26:00 GMT -5
So who gets the ball on opening day? Strictly a guess of course, the Cy Young winner. You mean Joe Kelly? But seriously, the only thing sad to me about the Sale trade was that they gave up their prize RH pitching prospect in Kopech. I would have been happier had Groome been that piece, but I realize that couldn't happen. Regardless, we need RHP on the path now and I would expect this to be addressed in the 2017 draft. I can't believe DD is done. I expect ERod to be gone, among others, for a power bat somewhere on the IF. The Sale trade was probably reasonable because of the confluence of favorable conditions for him. A-1 starter. Prime of his career. 1100 innings on his arm at the moment -- plenty of mileage left, one would think. Absolutely NO evidence of any performance regression in any of the important peripherals. I do not want to hear anything about Pablo Sandoval at 1B. I do not want a short dumpy guy at 1B who probably can't jump and may have trouble bending over to pick low throws. I want a player there who makes any throw that hits the dartboard acceptable, rather than making the IF throw for the bullseye, relatively speaking.
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Post by rangoon82 on Dec 6, 2016 17:26:16 GMT -5
I hope the Sox get another LHP SP. Just for the novelty of having an all LHP rotation.
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Post by dabigmo on Dec 6, 2016 17:27:48 GMT -5
There's a good chance he sold high on Espinoza I'd say there is a much higher chance that we sold low on Espinoza and bought high on Pomeranz, that is DD's MO these days, buy high/sell low.
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Post by dirtdog on Dec 6, 2016 17:28:24 GMT -5
There's a good chance he sold high on Espinoza There is always the possibility SD did too.
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Post by dirtdog on Dec 6, 2016 17:30:03 GMT -5
Now they are probably hoping Price opts out, one upside is Sale puts them in a better position to deal with that.
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Post by m1keyboots on Dec 6, 2016 17:32:19 GMT -5
I hope the Sox get another LHP SP. Just for the novelty of having an all LHP rotation. Trade Wright and Buch and promote stud lefty Brian Johnson. But really trading a one of the 4 remaining starters and another prospect for a decent bat would be nice
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Post by dabigmo on Dec 6, 2016 17:32:20 GMT -5
Something tells me if the Sox still had Margot and or Espinoza still around either of them or both of them could have been part of this trade for Sale and Moncada would still be around. It's not just the one move in a vacuum, but the totality of all his moves that make him awful at his job. Really you could take any of his moves and argue in his favor, but when you look at the entirety of his moves there is only one conclusion that can be reached and that is Dave Dombrowski is awful at his job and perhaps the worst signing this franchise has ever made.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 6, 2016 17:33:20 GMT -5
There's a good chance he sold high on Espinoza I'd say there is a much higher chance that we sold low on Espinoza and bought high on Pomeranz, that is DD's MO these days, buy high/sell low. Oh I definitely think the Padres sold high; I don't like Pomeranz nor did I like that trade. That's not really the point. Espinoza is likely less regarded now than he was last year and unless he has a good year that will get worse.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,844
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 6, 2016 17:35:40 GMT -5
D-Dom was interviewed on he MLB Network just after the presser and I was struck by how casually he said that, yes, Kopech will probably be a No.1. For better or worse, this is the guy we have running baseball ops. JWH knew what he was getting and was looking for a 180-degree switch from the prospect-hoarding BC.
I just think they gave up a ton of cost-controlled talent for a guy who's been a very good, not great, P the last two years. By ERA-plus he's gone 140, 173, 137, 114, 120 since becoming a starter in 2012. (In fairness, his periphs were better in 2015 than the ERA-plus would indicate.) His three best WAR years (B-Ref) all came between 2012 and 2014.
If we use WAR as our measure, this trade is likely to be a blowout in favor of the WS, given that they got a batch of guys - including two potential studs - with six cost-controlled years apiece and Sale is under contract for only three.
I have to think they trade either Clay or Pomeranz for a corner IF now. I can't imagine they go into the season betting heavily on Panda as a productive, healthy and committed player.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 6, 2016 17:35:57 GMT -5
I'd say there is a much higher chance that we sold low on Espinoza and bought high on Pomeranz, that is DD's MO these days, buy high/sell low. Oh I definitely think the Padres sold high; I don't like Pomeranz nor did I like that trade. That's not really the point. Espinoza is likely less regarded now than he was last year and unless he has a good year that will get worse. That might be true for GMs who only understand ERA.
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Post by borisman on Dec 6, 2016 17:35:59 GMT -5
Sale led the league in HBP last 2 years. He'll get acquainted with Machado real soon. 6 CG as well last year. What will Farrell do besides a sigh of relief!
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Post by pedey on Dec 6, 2016 17:43:39 GMT -5
So what does this mean for E-Rod? Yes, this trades gives the Sox depth. So if there is overcrowding of starters for 5 spots, is E-Rod on the first bus to Pawtucket simply because he has options? So dumb. Erod is major league ready, he has nothing to prove in AAA. Dump buchholz, beg the MLB to revoke the pomeranz trade, and start erod.
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