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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 8:44:18 GMT -5
But the idea behind the tiers is that, within a tier, there is no such thing. That's the point behind the tiering system. If 1 is really a "lessor talent" well then they are not in the same tier.
While the cap # came in lower, I guarantee Zarren saw it coming while watching the Cavs get obliterated by GS.
I'm not guaranteeing this is how it went down. It would be insane of me to say that. I just think it's insane to see a bunch of information that supports the POSSIBILITY and ignore it.
Danny rarely makes a move without the big picture in mind. I'm just suggesting that it MIGHT have happened again here.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2017 8:45:47 GMT -5
I think I'm losing what you are trying to say.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 8:48:16 GMT -5
Several reports about John Wall "recruiting" Paul George.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 8:55:40 GMT -5
I think I'm losing what you are trying to say. What I was originally trying to say was that this is not a big blunder. It's a calculated risk that may or may not work out (like all NBA transactions). Then I was trying to say that I don't believe any of Danny's move should be viewed individually. I believe they are all tied to each other (they have been in the past, why stop now?). Then we got into the details ALL of which rely on some level of assumption (even though I believe it, we're still assuming that Tatum being #1 on his board is more than just GM Speak). |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2017 9:01:40 GMT -5
Ok well yea Danny is always looking short and long term and weighing the differences. He's clearly not going to do anything to go "all-in" for the now and is definitely building toward a future surrounding this Brooklyn picks.
I guess the place I'm not necessarily with you is the trade down. I do think they likely had Tatum 1 on their board but if not whoever they had 1 over Tatum had to be neck and neck and a negligible difference for them to trade down.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 9:12:10 GMT -5
Admittedly, I AM assuming that Boston is a "tiering team" (just seems to fit his MO). If so, Tatum and Fultz would have to be in different tiers for one to be the "lessor player". I don't believe that's true.
Again, this all what I believe and I'm not trying to pawn it off as fact (so it's impossible for me to convince those that believe otherwise - no problem with that).
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 10:33:12 GMT -5
Non-Celtics question here but does anyone else find C Paul to Houston an odd fit (reports are that the Rockets are going to make a push)?
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 10:40:51 GMT -5
Woj BOMB!!!
Clippers are trading Paul to Houston (after CP agrees to opt-in).
EDIT: I actually hate that phrase but the shock rendered me helpless to avoid it.
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Post by sgfeer on Jun 28, 2017 10:54:33 GMT -5
Non-Celtics question here but does anyone else find C Paul to Houston an odd fit (reports are that the Rockets are going to make a push)? With Harden and Paul on the court together, you won't need anyone else that can dribble or shoot. Rebounders and D only. Weird deal at first blush |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 11:17:00 GMT -5
If this is, indeed, a rebuild that's going to hurt Boston. That 19 Pick is lottery protected for 2 years and then becomes a 2nd in 22. Loses value for sure.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Jun 28, 2017 11:43:09 GMT -5
If this is, indeed, a rebuild that's going to hurt Boston. That 19 Pick is lottery protected for 2 years and then becomes a 2nd in 22. Loses value for sure. Reports now saying Houston might become a player for Paul George too. Given potential loss of LAC pick as a #1, and the potential that with competition the Celts might HAVE to include LAL/Sac pick for PG13, the cupboard might actually get pretty bare on future assets (Memphis pick is 9-30 in '19 or 7-30 in '20, plus Celtics own picks). Emphasizes why it's important to keep Tatum/Brown in any deals. One option to keep the warchest full is that leftover of Bradley/Crowder/Smart are flipped for assets or Olynyk S&T for something. This also makes a future run at The Brow a stretch, unless Tatum or Brown really emerge. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 11:48:07 GMT -5
Stephen A. also saying that if NY does a buyout with Carmelo, he would join Harden and Paul in Houston (which would be amazing in one way or another - amazingly good or amazingly bad).
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 28, 2017 12:14:40 GMT -5
Smart of Paul as only way he could get to a contender and make money was to do something like that... now Houston can use bird rights to extend him.
We will see how far Clippers can actually tank. They are likely stuck with Jordan but Western Conference is loaded... however... Doc Rivers is a stupid GM and won't let coach Doc have a terrible team.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 12:49:02 GMT -5
Smart of Paul as only way he could get to a contender and make money was to do something like that... now Houston can use bird rights to extend him. We will see how far Clippers can actually tank. They are likely stuck with Jordan but Western Conference is loaded... however... Doc Rivers is a stupid GM and won't let coach Doc have a terrible team. That trade got them Dekker, Beverly and Williams. Thats a good amount of talent. If Griffin resigns they are still a playoff team. If he doesn't they will add other players. I think you nailed it with Doc. Doc the GM will not rebuild, because Doc the coach doesn't want to. It's not a given we get the pick now, but I wouldn't rule it out either. Free agency will also tell us a lot about how strong the Western confrence will be. Griffin is huge, but so is Hayward, Holiday, and Daniel G. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 12:52:17 GMT -5
Non-Celtics question here but does anyone else find C Paul to Houston an odd fit (reports are that the Rockets are going to make a push)? With Harden and Paul on the court together, you won't need anyone else that can dribble or shoot. Rebounders and D only. Weird deal at first blush That's just not true. Two guards that control the ball is a tricky thing, look at Portland. You will need shooters to space the floor. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 12:56:52 GMT -5
LA Times Beat Reporter Brad Turner is saying LAC is also getting Harrell.
Meanwhile, Houston is taking advantage of their 16-17 cap space to acquire non-guaranteed contracts to throw in and match up with Paul's salary (which has a trade kicker that brings his cap number to $26Mn).
Liggins, Quarterman and Ryan Kelly supposedly also in the trade.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:00:25 GMT -5
Admittedly, I AM assuming that Boston is a "tiering team" (just seems to fit his MO). If so, Tatum and Fultz would have to be in different tiers for one to be the "lessor player". I don't believe that's true. Again, this all what I believe and I'm not trying to pawn it off as fact (so it's impossible for me to convince those that believe otherwise - no problem with that). I think you are looking at the tiering system wrong. It's used so if you have a choice between two players, one in tier one and one in tier two you always take the guy in the higher tier. It doesn't mean all the players in a given tier are equal. They might all have equal upside, but they aren't equal. Danny did this trade because he knew he could get his #1 player at pick #3. He knew Sixers wanted Fultz and Lakers wanted Ball. So he got another great asset and still got his player. The money savings and extra asset are gravy, Tatum is the jewel to Danny. He would have taken him at #1 if he didn't know for a fact he could get him at #3. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:04:25 GMT -5
That's not how the tiering system (first introduced by Rick Buecher by the way) was first introduced.
I'm just going to back off on these debates since it's impossible to do so when people insist that they KNOW what Danny (or any GM) was thinking. You don't.
If you're only open to a side that requires 100% knowledge of the situation, there is no use having a discussion.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:09:03 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:10:25 GMT -5
That's Fords tiering system and how he says teams use it. Your idea that all players in a tier are equal just makes no sense.
Also we know Tatum was #1 and that Danny would have taken him #1, he said that.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:12:35 GMT -5
Who would like to start a list of things that GMs say that end up not being true?
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:17:41 GMT -5
Okay. My post was argumentative. I retract.
Would you expect a GM who just traded the #1 overall pick for what many believe to be a small return and NOT say that the guy they ended up with was their #1 guy? Why would he say anything else???
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:17:55 GMT -5
Sure you can't believe everything a GM says. In this case it's very clear what happened. We had a ton of reports before draft of what the Celtics thoughts were. Then Danny confirming them. To not believe all the information we have that says one thing is just because you don't want to believe it.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:21:11 GMT -5
You said you believed Tatum was #1 on our board, so I guess I'm just confused what you are debating here?
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:29:40 GMT -5
It's more that I have no problem believing that, in a board ranking, Tatum may have been #1. And it COULD be that it's the end of the story.
However, I'm open to the possibility that:
1. Danny is a tier guy and uses the tiers in the way Ford says teams use the system.
2. Danny needed cap space and assets to make the moves he wanted to
3. GMs sometimes say things that aren't true for various reasons (leverage, pumping a player, changing circumstances, etc)
There's more but that covers this situation.
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