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2017 Celtics offseason
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:30:11 GMT -5
I want to add that in Ford's tier ranking he doesn't go into details about it. Like the Celtics a stacked team. All the tier one players didn't fit a need. There were no centers or power forwards. So the next step for a team is to rank those players. Also need doesn't always supercede talent. For example you could have Tatum and Brown at SF, but if the next LeBron comes along in draft you take him. Not all tier 1 players are the same. Players like Davis and KAT were clearly above players like Parker and Wiggins for example.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:36:40 GMT -5
And, more importantly, I'm arguing that no move of Danny's should be considered independent. Which gets back to my first point on this which is that heading into the offseason with:
- a 1st place team in the East(which, actually, was the 2nd best team)
- max cap space potential
- 3 pieces of a future plan
and leaving with:
- on court upgrades on Bradley and Crowder (in George and Hayward)
- keeping those 3 future pieces
- really just only costing the additional risk of George leaving over Bradley leaving
is NOT a "big blunder", imo.
Maybe I should stop reacting to board hyperbole. It clearly took me down a path I shouldn't have gone down (since the exact motives for Danny trading down are irrelevant).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 13:38:31 GMT -5
It's more that I have no problem believing that, in a board ranking, Tatum may have been #1. And it COULD be that it's the end of the story. However, I'm open to the possibility that: 1. Danny is a tier guy and uses the tiers in the way Ford says teams use the system. 2. Danny needed cap space and assets to make the moves he wanted to 3. GMs sometimes say things that aren't true for various reasons (leverage, pumping a player, changing circumstances, etc) There's more but that covers this situation. Well if you believe Tatum is #1, 1-3 mean nothing more than Danny is great at his job. He got his player and extra. Not that he traded down to make the George trade, but because he got extra assets and his guy. He would have been stupid not to do it. By arguing he traded down to get George and cap space your implying Tatum wasn't #1 on our board. The trade was made for assets and cap space. If that was true we would know that in todays world. Someone would have leaked a massive story like that. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 13:46:40 GMT -5
I want to add that in Ford's tier ranking he doesn't go into details about it. Like the Celtics a stacked team. All the tier one players didn't fit a need. There were no centers or power forwards. So the next step for a team is to rank those players. Also need doesn't always supercede talent. For example you could have Tatum and Brown at SF, but if the next LeBron comes along in draft you take him. Not all tier 1 players are the same. Players like Davis and KAT were clearly above players like Parker and Wiggins for example. The article explains this (techinically, the detail is in an article that is further linked within the above one. Since it's still, technically, Insider I won't copy and paste the whole thing but here are the highlights (I think you are an Insider so you can get the full post): - Some teams don't develop a ranking but, instead, group into tiers (based on overall value). - Teams rank players within the tiers based on need Admittedly, I'm adding my own interpretation that need is not just positional need (I really don't think that's much of a leap) |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 14:07:11 GMT -5
I want to add that in Ford's tier ranking he doesn't go into details about it. Like the Celtics a stacked team. All the tier one players didn't fit a need. There were no centers or power forwards. So the next step for a team is to rank those players. Also need doesn't always supercede talent. For example you could have Tatum and Brown at SF, but if the next LeBron comes along in draft you take him. Not all tier 1 players are the same. Players like Davis and KAT were clearly above players like Parker and Wiggins for example. The article explains this (techinically, the detail is in an article that is further linked within the above one. Since it's still, technically, Insider I won't copy and paste the whole thing but here are the highlights (I think you are an Insider so you can get the full post): - Some teams don't develop a ranking but, instead, group into tiers (based on overall value). - Teams rank players within the tiers based on need Admittedly, I'm adding my own interpretation that need is not just positional need (I really don't think that's much of a leap) I read the article. It's not an in depth explanation of the tiering system. Just a quick explanation of what it is and how teams use it in general. More for a person to just get a general idea of what the system is. No it's not a leap, teams rank the players in the tiers by a lot more than just need though. That's just an over simplification. If you go look at all his past tier 1 rankings you can easily rank them into groups in my opinion. I just don't think all tier 1 players are equal. I would certainly draft certain guys over other guys based of things other than need. Regardless of position. Some are can't miss generational talents and some just have high ceilings. Look at Davis and Wiggins. Both had high ceilings, but Davis had a much higher floor. Need wouldn't come into play when making a choice between those two players. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 14:34:18 GMT -5
Did you go into the imbedding link? What he has in there seems much more specific.
Granted, it's a HUGE assumption that Boston is even one of these teams. I admit that whole heartedly.
Anyways, I think we've beaten this one enough.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 28, 2017 15:59:33 GMT -5
Tier ranking players between this draft or any sports draft is mostly about what the sports writers see and they use to show why or how they rated a player. The writer's ranking comes from what he or she thinks they heard from their sources. To ask or say what do the Celtic's use is not realistic. I would ask umass or tex where was brown rated last year before the draft? Danny had him rated a lot higher the pretty much everyone else. Not sure he was rated in tier one. This year the top 4 guys were fultz, ball, Jackson and tatum. Danny was mostly looking at size and scoring. I do not think Danny liked fultz, motor or focus. He lost to Yale early in the season. I would have thought he would have won that guy all by himself, based on how good everyong thought he was.Jackson is not or does not have a scorers game yet. In all other aspects is an excellent player with a motor and focus. Already have Brown who is working hard to acquire a scoring skill set. Not sure about Ball. he makes people better. Not necessarily a driver but a great passer. In Danny's mind I GUESS that makes Tatum his pick for number 1 on the board. The guy can score in multi ways, plays good D. Can guard multi spots on the floor . Seems focused and has drive. Was that, or is that Danny's logic for picking tatum and was he Danny's top guy on the board. I do not think Danny would tell you straight up, because it might give away how he picks in the future.
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Post by ryan24 on Jun 28, 2017 16:02:21 GMT -5
One of the writers on Si said when evaluating Thomas, abysmal defense. lack of size, and season ending hip injury as negatives. He made it sound like the only good thing about him was that he gave the Celtic's a chance to get a super team signed because he was not making any money with his cheap contract.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 16:03:58 GMT -5
The tiers are the writers (in this case, Ford) trying to display what the consensus is. It should be expected that it could look different from team to team.
How they are used are, supposedly, taken directly from what some teams do (or, at least, used to do).
We weren't really debating over whether Ford's tiers are correct (I think we'd both agree they are an attempt at consensus by 1 writer). So I'm not really sure how Brown enters into this.
It's not hard to assume that, in Danny's tiers (if he uses them) Brown would've been in a tier that put him in position for the #3 pick.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 28, 2017 17:13:06 GMT -5
So basically Danny traded the #1 for the #3 pick and the centerpiece to trade for Paul George?
When you look at it in simple terms it is impressive. I don't think Danny is getting enough credit for another brilliant move, maybe. Think about it, we have been discussing on here for months whether the C's should go for it now or remain patient and build. If DA pulls this off he does both because of that trade.
PG actually played the 2 his first 2 yrs for Indiana. Just a little food for thought when discussing the redundancy of Hayward, PG, Tatum and Brown.
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Post by texs31 on Jun 28, 2017 17:23:52 GMT -5
Barring a change of plans (or new info, of course), it would appear that Hayward's list is Miami (visit on Friday), Boston (no visit scheduled) and Utah (visit on Sunday).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 28, 2017 19:28:46 GMT -5
Well Ford tiers rankings are a vote of GMs and NBA front office people for teams. He polls them and they rank the players. He takes the results, averages them out and gets his tiers. It's not his opinion. It's what the NBA teams think. Not all teams agree though. Only Fultz and Ball were tier one, but Tatum, Jackson and Fox all got tier one votes from some teams.
Last year only Simmons was tier 1, Ingram was tier 2 and then there was a group in tier 3. So when looking at Brown he didn't jump a tier. Though it wouldn't surprise me if Danny liked him more than Ingram. What happend is most people thought Brown was at the end of tier 3 and he was the first player taken in that tier.
I do think Brown is a great example of how a team doesn't rate tier by just need. As he didn't help our biggest needs of a go to scorer, rebounding or 3 point shooting. Murray would have checked off two of those boxes. Unless Danny had him rated as a tier 2 player.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,862
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Post by wcp3 on Jun 28, 2017 20:56:29 GMT -5
Exactly - it's what Ford pretends the GMs tell him.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jun 28, 2017 22:52:00 GMT -5
Yabu was still under team control though. There is doubts from the Celtics on whether either one or both of these player will play, especially with this new lowered cap number brought from the league a few days ago. Contract status has nothing to do with summer league and both are still under team control but Yabu won't be playing I'm sure. Zizic will if he can make it over. Honestly why do so many of you respond to someone who responds to everything and yet very frequently just spouts factually incorrect responses? I'm curious. Why bother? |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 2:05:15 GMT -5
Contract status has nothing to do with summer league and both are still under team control but Yabu won't be playing I'm sure. Zizic will if he can make it over. Honestly why do so many of you respond to someone who responds to everything and yet very frequently just spouts factually incorrect responses? I'm curious. Why bother? Why do you bother to post anything that has literally nothing to do with you? Nothing I said was incorrect. Yabu and Zicic aren't under contract yet. My hope is that the mods start taking notice of your trolling obsession over my posts. A lot of the posting on this thread isn't factually correct and is based off pure speculation. As for being factually incorrect all the time, you should backtrack to the part of this thread where *I thought* the Celtics were going after a max free agent and then trading for Paul George even *before* it was reported on Twitter. Didn't know the exact order of which it could be done but I knew the Celtics could match salaries for George rather easily. Edit- I just would like to point out that you did nothing but make yourself look bad by detracting from the conversation about the Celtics in this thread. I don't care what you think of me and I'm willing to bet that 99 percent of the people here could careless what you think of me too. I'd rather respond to "everything" than to post here once every month like you do while bringing absolutely nothing to the table besides singling a poster like me out. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2017 3:35:15 GMT -5
Contract status has nothing to do with summer league and both are still under team control but Yabu won't be playing I'm sure. Zizic will if he can make it over. Honestly why do so many of you respond to someone who responds to everything and yet very frequently just spouts factually incorrect responses? I'm curious. Why bother? I'll respond to anyone that seems like a nice guy and is trying to bring something to the table. Activity is important on boards and I enjoy this one even if I don't agree with everything posted on it. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2017 3:37:42 GMT -5
Barring a change of plans (or new info, of course), it would appear that Hayward's list is Miami (visit on Friday), Boston (no visit scheduled) and Utah (visit on Sunday). Boston visit is Monday... save best for last |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 3:47:17 GMT -5
Barring a change of plans (or new info, of course), it would appear that Hayward's list is Miami (visit on Friday), Boston (no visit scheduled) and Utah (visit on Sunday). Boston visit is Monday... save best for last Lol i wonder if Tom Brady will be invited again. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2017 6:50:09 GMT -5
Barring a change of plans (or new info, of course), it would appear that Hayward's list is Miami (visit on Friday), Boston (no visit scheduled) and Utah (visit on Sunday). Boston visit is Monday... save best for last I'm reading conflicting reports. One says it's on Sunday (with Utah last) and one says Monday (after Utah). Given that all reports say he's going to the teams (instead of making them come to him), Miami to Utah to Boston would seem strange. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 29, 2017 7:18:05 GMT -5
Boston visit is Monday... save best for last I'm reading conflicting reports. One says it's on Sunday (with Utah last) and one says Monday (after Utah). Given that all reports say he's going to the teams (instead of making them come to him), Miami to Utah to Boston would seem strange. Yeah Prohoopsrumors says it's Miami, Boston, then Utah for last. The one good thing they said on Prohoopsrumors is that Hayward wants to make a quick decision so all of this speculation could come and go fairly quickly. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2017 7:39:23 GMT -5
I want to add that in Ford's tier ranking he doesn't go into details about it. Like the Celtics a stacked team. All the tier one players didn't fit a need. There were no centers or power forwards. So the next step for a team is to rank those players. Also need doesn't always supercede talent. For example you could have Tatum and Brown at SF, but if the next LeBron comes along in draft you take him. Not all tier 1 players are the same. Players like Davis and KAT were clearly above players like Parker and Wiggins for example. I fear you're being too limiting in your definition of need: - One could argue size and/or length is ALWAYS a need in the NBA (put it this way, if KAT and DAVIS were 6-5, what would their evaluation look like) - Athleticism could be a need - Needs could also be defined by what's happening down the road (ie preparing for another player's pending FA status). EVERY team has needs. Even Golden State. |
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Post by texs31 on Jun 29, 2017 8:09:50 GMT -5
George will sign here if they have Hayward... I would love this desk if we kept that Laker pick... I still think we do. But if not, I'll be ok. I can't see us giving up both Smart and the Lakers pick on top of Bradley and Crowder. Also this team can beat Cleveland. Paul George is very near Elite and he matches up well with LeBron. No he won't. I would bet on this. IMO it's a Alice in Wonderland to think he'll sign with the Celts.
The Celts team will not and cannot beat the Cavs if they get George and remain so small. I would bet on this.
And George is not "elite enough yet" to slow down LeBron enough. There's a reason why LBJ averaged near 33ppg in the playoffs off of George with a 59.2% efg%. And what happens when the Cavs pick-and-roll/ pick-and-pop LeBron? How would the overall defense be for "the next man-up" guarding LBJ?
And with the Celts being so small- they will struggle mightily vs LeBron, struggle big time vs Irving and then you play small and will get even more wiped off the glass.
I actually won't bet. I hate LeBron. I'd much rather be wrong. But the Celts aren't as good as you think they are. Neither are the players you think the Celts will get-- in one year - they will not win come playoff time.
I base my opinion of George being a waste because I think no way he signs. If he signs -- different story - depending on money and draft picks etc. I don't think there is a prayer he stays with Boston. I question NBA player's "patience." This kid said he wants LA and yet LA stinks. What does that tell you? So why LA and not a super team? IMO - If he can't see near-term that he can win a title, imo he is going to go to a place where he wants to live. Nowhere was Boston in his love interest, was it? From what I've heard on the radio, no way he is going to stay with Boston. IMO you are setting yourself up for an enormous disappointment in George's ability to shutdown/significantly slowdown LeBron and the point you think he can be kept which will end up in losing to Cleveland whether they have the one year rental player or don't.
Will you admit this--> If the Celts don't sign him for more than 1 year, and they give up a top-tier pick, Bradley and Crower, then the move more than likely would have been a blunder?
And imo Isiah Thomas is "tick-tock" "tick-tock"tick-tock" in terms of his ability to maintain tremendous offensive play while being such a negative defensively. Couple of thoughts on this (going backwards): - One of the most interesting dynamics is to see what IT becomes with even 1 legitimate offensive threat next to him (by legitimate, I'm talking about an expected 20PPG player like Hayward, Griffin or George), let alone 2. I'd like to think he'd be able to be more of a distributor but I'm not sure. And if he isn't scoring 25+ pts per game, what does that leave us contract wise? Interesting. - Boy do I HATE evaluating transactions solely based on what happens long after they are made. GMs, especially ones that want to succeed, MUST take calculated risks. They sometimes fail. I don't agree that it makes them "big blunders". - If it's a Brooklyn asset (Tatum, Brown or 18BRK), I will be mad no matter WHAT happens. Even if it works out, I think it's a mistake (I'm one that believes good transactions can work out poorly and bad ones can work out well). - I'm assuming you believe that LAL/SAC/PHI is a top tier pick. I've already talked about my feelings on how that was acquired (and recognize that few agree with me), so let's leave that one alone. Beyond that, I do question how good that pick really will be. 2-5 is such a small window and we have 0 idea what the Lakers will look like. They've added a guy who should make others better in Ball. Rid themselves of a talented player but one who seemed to divide the locker room. Ingram should improve. If healthy, Brook Lopez could help win some games. While it's value in trade is that it has a CHANCE to be 2-5 but it's more likely that it's 2019 imo. - I wish I was sure of ANYTHING as much as you're sure he's going to LA. First, we never heard a direct quote from George. All to often, the "sources" miss some very key information. For example, George saying he wants to play for LA and George saying all else equal, he wants to play for LA is only the differences of 3 words and something that could easily happen as information is passed through the grapevine. But that's a pretty significant difference. And while "sources say" from legitimate outlets can be taken seriously, I've been reading legitimate outlets saying that his camp thinks Boston is a good fit. I'd also remind that he's speaking as a player on a go nowhere Indiana team. Do we know that wouldn't change? Again, I just read a report that said he'd stay in Cleveland if he makes it there. The case for LA, is that he lives there. The case against it?? Kind of a long list. Not to say it wouldn't happen but now the key is Boston (or any acquiring team) to evaluate their chances of re-signing him and compare that to the chances the outgoing return proves costly. For example, what are the chances he gives up the chance to play in an easier conference on a better team (with guys he supposedly likes/admires in Hayward and Thomas) to play for a worse team (that would still have some work to add another start to) in a tougher conference and with a sideshow like Lavar Ball. Compare that to the chances that pick becomes 2-5. Unless Danny has some level of assurances, it's a gamble. I don't argue that. GM's have to play the odds to move forward though and we're relying on Danny to do so. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2017 11:21:47 GMT -5
Hayward has audio stating he can't stand Tom Brady so I don't think they will bring him to any meeting
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mobaz
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Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Jun 29, 2017 11:44:21 GMT -5
Hayward has audio stating he can't stand Tom Brady so I don't think they will bring him to any meeting Just make sure TB rolls in with all 5 rings, and I think it'll be okay. If Danny wears his 2, shows what being a champion in Boston means. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jun 29, 2017 11:46:26 GMT -5
Hayward has audio stating he can't stand Tom Brady so I don't think they will bring him to any meeting Just make sure TB rolls in with all 5 rings, and I think it'll be okay. If Danny wears his 2, shows what being a champion in Boston means. Maybe they can get Ortiz to go this year since he's retired and not having anything else named after him for a while. |
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