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2017 Trade Deadline Thread (Red Sox discussion)
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Post by sparkygian on Jul 29, 2017 16:57:33 GMT -5
I think the the real deadline deal that should be done to get the Sox a huge chance for a World Series title isn't this year, but instead was last year. I personally feel that if DD made the Sale trade last year at the deadline, the team would have beaten Cleveland, and probably would have beaten the Cubs for the Championship. We've all seen the difference that Sale makes to this team. Last year the Sox had the no. 1 offense by far. The Sox had everything going for them last year. Price was supposed to be that no. 1 starter last year, but he was having a down year. Sale would have provided a huge lift to the team, even more than getting Chapman did for the Cubs last year.
I'm also thinking that if DD hadn't gotten Sale this last off-season, and had his dominant pitching to count on every fifth game, DD and the Sox would have been closer to another first place to last place season this year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2017 17:07:00 GMT -5
I think the the real deadline deal that should be done to get the Sox a huge chance for a World Series title isn't this year, but instead was last year. I personally feel that if DD made the Sale trade last year at the deadline, the team would have beaten Cleveland, and probably would have beaten the Cubs for the Championship. We've all seen the difference that Sale makes to this team. Last year the Sox had the no. 1 offense by far. The Sox had everything going for them last year. Price was supposed to be that no. 1 starter last year, but he was having a down year. Sale would have provided a huge lift to the team, even more than getting Chapman did for the Cubs last year. I'm also thinking that if DD hadn't gotten Sale this last off-season, and had his dominant pitching to count on every fifth game, DD and the Sox would have been closer to another first place to last place season this year. I don't remember where I read it, but Sale was not made available until after the 2016 season had already completed. Dombrowski never had a chance at making that deal last July 31st. If you put the 2016 Red Sox offense along with the 2016 versions of Price and Porcello together with the rest of the 2017 pitching staff featuring Sale and a healthy Kimbrel, that's easily a 100 plus win team. Conversely, do the opposite and you probably have a sub .500 team. Like they say timing is everything in life. |
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Post by sparkygian on Jul 29, 2017 17:20:38 GMT -5
Just for the fun of it proposal: If the Sox traded Betts, along with any starting pitcher on the team besides Sale, B. Johnson, Swihart, and any two prospects not named Devers, for Mike Trout, would Sox fans be happy about it, or negative?
I think it's kind of becoming obvious at this point that DD has punted this season away, and is already trying to position for 2019. I really doubt that DD would make a big move at this point, given the salary constraint, and the lack of available impact hitters to be had, besides Bruce maybe. So I'm interested to see if DD actually does make a big trade. I really doubt it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2017 17:28:05 GMT -5
Just for the fun of it proposal: If the Sox traded Betts, along with any starting pitcher on the team besides Sale, B. Johnson, Swihart, and any two prospects not named Devers, for Mike Trout, would Sox fans be happy about it, or negative? I think it's kind of becoming obvious at this point that DD has punted this season away, and is already trying to position for 2019. I really doubt that DD would make a big move at this point, given the salary constraint, and the lack of available impact hitters to be had, besides Bruce maybe. So I'm interested to see if DD actually does make a big trade. I really doubt it. He hasn't punted the season as much as he's pretty much run very low on chips. He'll get himself a reliever. Jay Bruce could be an impactful bat that's available. Really, the starting lineup needs to play better. He can't acquire a SS to hit while Xander is hurt and playing lousy, although he got Nunez as insurance for Xander, Devers, and even Pedroia if he got injured. He's not dealing for Mike Trout. Nobody is. If the Red Sox lineup plays up to its abilities, Xander and Moreland get injured, they should be better and if Price can pitch and they get another reliever the Sox could get hot and finish 1st and win between 90 - 95 games. That's not exactly punting the season. |
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Post by sparkygian on Jul 29, 2017 17:35:17 GMT -5
Just to be clear, I know that the Angels and Sox aren't going to be doing any sort of trade for the aforementioned players. I just keep scanning this thread to see proposed trades that would impact the team this season enough to make them serious contenders for this postseason, or even just 2018. Aside from perhaps Bruce, I just don't see any names being proposed that fit that scenario. I also think that unless Devers blossoms incredibly quick, this team isn't really positioned well next year either, currently constructed. The reason I mentioned the Trout trade is strictly to say that I feel like DD is going to have to think outside the box to get this team to be serious contenders next year, let alone being able to compete with the Yankees next year. Like DD recently pointed out, he's not giving up on finding someone to trade for before the deadline. Rather the current roster is vastly under performing, and a trade isn't going to solve the team's dilemma this year. Perhaps a new thread should be started on coming up with scenarios on how to make this team serious contenders next year.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 29, 2017 17:46:19 GMT -5
Source tells me we signed nick punto to a MILB deal
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 17:51:38 GMT -5
I'm not saying that they should not trade them, they will have to trade some of them, but just make sure they get the right price. For example, I may have added Moncada to this list last year, but the Red Sox got a good price for him (and some other prospects), in Chris Sale. Rusconi and Wren are way underrated, so if no one else wants them then that's good for us. Wren is streaky, and can be on or off, but as we've seen with JBJ, that can be worth it. Rusconi, well, he wasn't their 4th pick for nothing. The Sox were reckless trading Shaw, Dubon, and Pennington for Thornburg and you've seen where that's gotten us. I get your point but I think you're vastly overrating the talent level of many of those on your list. A lot of those guys have minimal value, like Rusconi and Wren, whom the Red Sox drafted only because of his father and they knew he'd take the minimum amount of money to sign thus allowing them to sign others like Aaron Perry for example. Like on your yet to debut list, some of those guys are so marginal. Groome, Houcke, Buttrey, and Mars are differing levels of talent with Groome obviously their best prospect and Houcke a valuable commodity as their first round pick. Mars might make it as a #4 OF and Buttrey could make a bullpen, but likely just a fungible relief arm. The rest are questionable. Chatham keeps having injury issues or he'd be a guy with a legit chance. As far as the Shaw deal, it's turned out awfully bad, but if Shaw had been any good at all last season, they wouldn't have dealt him. He was bad enough to lose his job. Dubon is a good prospect. Pennington probably won't amount to much. They also gave up a young SS Coca, who is quite young, but has a legit shot, but really the deal is mostly Shaw. If Shaw and Thornburg had performed the way they did in 2016 nobody would be complaining. Shaw is not some 22 year old kid. He's 27 and this is his career year, kind of what Phil Plantier did back in 1993. I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. The Red Sox also drafted Lovullo because of his father but now he's doing really well. At the end of the day, you may be right. Only time can tell. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. |
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Post by ramireja on Jul 29, 2017 17:54:33 GMT -5
Moved previous Barnes chatter to Barnes-specific thread
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 29, 2017 17:57:48 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're vastly overrating the talent level of many of those on your list. A lot of those guys have minimal value, like Rusconi and Wren, whom the Red Sox drafted only because of his father and they knew he'd take the minimum amount of money to sign thus allowing them to sign others like Aaron Perry for example. Like on your yet to debut list, some of those guys are so marginal. Groome, Houcke, Buttrey, and Mars are differing levels of talent with Groome obviously their best prospect and Houcke a valuable commodity as their first round pick. Mars might make it as a #4 OF and Buttrey could make a bullpen, but likely just a fungible relief arm. The rest are questionable. Chatham keeps having injury issues or he'd be a guy with a legit chance. As far as the Shaw deal, it's turned out awfully bad, but if Shaw had been any good at all last season, they wouldn't have dealt him. He was bad enough to lose his job. Dubon is a good prospect. Pennington probably won't amount to much. They also gave up a young SS Coca, who is quite young, but has a legit shot, but really the deal is mostly Shaw. If Shaw and Thornburg had performed the way they did in 2016 nobody would be complaining. Shaw is not some 22 year old kid. He's 27 and this is his career year, kind of what Phil Plantier did back in 1993. I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. You are about 10 times as optimistic as a reasonable person. |
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 29, 2017 18:14:23 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're vastly overrating the talent level of many of those on your list. A lot of those guys have minimal value, like Rusconi and Wren, whom the Red Sox drafted only because of his father and they knew he'd take the minimum amount of money to sign thus allowing them to sign others like Aaron Perry for example. Like on your yet to debut list, some of those guys are so marginal. Groome, Houcke, Buttrey, and Mars are differing levels of talent with Groome obviously their best prospect and Houcke a valuable commodity as their first round pick. Mars might make it as a #4 OF and Buttrey could make a bullpen, but likely just a fungible relief arm. The rest are questionable. Chatham keeps having injury issues or he'd be a guy with a legit chance. As far as the Shaw deal, it's turned out awfully bad, but if Shaw had been any good at all last season, they wouldn't have dealt him. He was bad enough to lose his job. Dubon is a good prospect. Pennington probably won't amount to much. They also gave up a young SS Coca, who is quite young, but has a legit shot, but really the deal is mostly Shaw. If Shaw and Thornburg had performed the way they did in 2016 nobody would be complaining. Shaw is not some 22 year old kid. He's 27 and this is his career year, kind of what Phil Plantier did back in 1993. I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. I wasn't posting much at the time, but I hated it -- and I was lending the "give Panda another shot before dumping him" brigade. But you were not in a position to trade the guy who projected to be better than him. Seriously. I mean, I might urge you to go out with your (formerly?) psycho ex-girlfriend, but I'm not going to tell you to leave your cell phone at home. Right now, the only untouchables in the minors are Groome and probably Houck and Mata; and (in a different sense) Beeks, Johnson, and Velazquez, since they can help now. But the main impediment to making a trade before Monday is the lack of guys who fit well. The two LHR (Hand and Wilson) are better than we need, while the available 1B aren't quite good enough (witness the price for Duda). Maybe Jay Bruce is, if he can actually play 1B, but that seems iffy. Moved previous Barnes chatter to Barnes-specific thread Thanks! It's sorting, however, as if the last post was June 29, not July 28. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2017 18:15:38 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're vastly overrating the talent level of many of those on your list. A lot of those guys have minimal value, like Rusconi and Wren, whom the Red Sox drafted only because of his father and they knew he'd take the minimum amount of money to sign thus allowing them to sign others like Aaron Perry for example. Like on your yet to debut list, some of those guys are so marginal. Groome, Houcke, Buttrey, and Mars are differing levels of talent with Groome obviously their best prospect and Houcke a valuable commodity as their first round pick. Mars might make it as a #4 OF and Buttrey could make a bullpen, but likely just a fungible relief arm. The rest are questionable. Chatham keeps having injury issues or he'd be a guy with a legit chance. As far as the Shaw deal, it's turned out awfully bad, but if Shaw had been any good at all last season, they wouldn't have dealt him. He was bad enough to lose his job. Dubon is a good prospect. Pennington probably won't amount to much. They also gave up a young SS Coca, who is quite young, but has a legit shot, but really the deal is mostly Shaw. If Shaw and Thornburg had performed the way they did in 2016 nobody would be complaining. Shaw is not some 22 year old kid. He's 27 and this is his career year, kind of what Phil Plantier did back in 1993. I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. Geez man, in your world, everybody turns out wonderfully. At best Mars and Matheny are #4 outfielders or more likely Mars than Matheny. Mars is not getting you a #2 or #3 starter. He probably won't net you a #5. That's crazy. Mars is likely a .260 hitter with no pop in the majors someday and that's kind of optimistic. Nobody starts a guy like that in CF unless they absolutely have to, and I do think Mars will eventually make the majors. Mark my words. Mars or Matheny will not be the CF in 2021 when JBJ leaves. The only guy with a shot at being a starting CF was the kid they just drafted in the 2nd round - Cole Brannen, and he's a long, long, long way away. You already have Pennington as good as Thornburg was? The only thing they have in common is they've both been injured all year. Pennington's most optimistic world view outcome is Thornburg. Dubon is going to be a solid 2b for the Brewers, but not an all-star unless the all-star game features .275 hitting 2b with little power, but certainly not somebody you're going to dislodge Dustin Pedroia for. Chatham is already 23 and can barely stay healthy enough to play A ball. His progress, to be kind, is very stalled. You can certainly argue the Sox gave up to much for Thornburg, but the year Shaw is having is his best case scenario. Last year was part of the record, too for him. The Shaw the Red Sox dealt last year batted .240 with 15 homers, most of them coming in the first couple of months. The guy actually lost his job last season. Like JimEd said, you are way too optimistic in your projections, way too optimistic. The Red Sox farm system isn't exactly flush in prospects these days and most of the guys you rattled off are fringy at best, certainly not Groome, Houcke, Travis, Swihart, Ockimey, Mata, or Chavis. I mean, looking at this site, it gives you a really good idea of what to anticipate and the strengths and weaknesses of each player. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 18:20:51 GMT -5
I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. Geez man, in your world, everybody turns out wonderfully. At best Mars and Matheny are #4 outfielders or more likely Mars than Matheny. Mars is not getting you a #2 or #3 starter. He probably won't net you a #5. That's crazy. Mars is likely a .260 hitter with no pop in the majors someday and that's kind of optimistic. Nobody starts a guy like that in CF unless they absolutely have to, and I do think Mars will eventually make the majors. Mark my words. Mars or Matheny will not be the CF in 2021 when JBJ leaves. The only guy with a shot at being a starting CF was the kid they just drafted in the 2nd round - Cole Brannen, and he's a long, long, long way away. You already have Pennington as good as Thornburg was? The only thing they have in common is they've both been injured all year. Pennington's most optimistic world view outcome is Thornburg. Dubon is going to be a solid 2b for the Brewers, but not an all-star unless the all-star game features .275 hitting 2b with little power, but certainly not somebody you're going to dislodge Dustin Pedroia for. Chatham is already 23 and can barely stay healthy enough to play A ball. His progress, to be kind, is very stalled. You can certainly argue the Sox gave up to much for Thornburg, but the year Shaw is having is his best case scenario. Last year was part of the record, too for him. The Shaw the Red Sox dealt last year batted .240 with 15 homers, most of them coming in the first couple of months. The guy actually lost his job last season. Like JimEd said, you are way too optimistic in your projections, way too optimistic. The Red Sox farm system isn't exactly flush in prospects these days and most of the guys you rattled off are fringy at best, certainly not Groome, Houcke, Travis, Swihart, Ockimey, Mata, or Chavis. I mean, looking at this site, it gives you a really good idea of what to anticipate and the strengths and weaknesses of each player. I didn't mention Brennan or Coca because I don't really pay much attention to the GCL and DSL players, just as a disclaimer. I have been wrong in the past, predicting Kuehl McEachern would replace Junichi Tazawa, and predicting Kevin Heller would replace David Ortiz. But I have also been right in the past, predicting that Bradley would break out and Ball would develop slowly. Again, only time can tell. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 18:29:00 GMT -5
I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. I wasn't posting much at the time, but I hated it -- and I was lending the "give Panda another shot before dumping him" brigade. But you were not in a position to trade the guy who projected to be better than him. Seriously. I mean, I might urge you to go out with your (formerly?) psycho ex-girlfriend, but I'm not going to tell you to leave your cell phone at home. Right now, the only untouchables in the minors are Groome and probably Houck and Mata; and (in a different sense) Beeks, Johnson, and Velazquez, since they can help now. But the main impediment to making a trade before Monday is the lack of guys who fit well. The two LHR (Hand and Wilson) are better than we need, while the available 1B aren't quite good enough (witness the price for Duda). Maybe Jay Bruce is, if he can actually play 1B, but that seems iffy. Moved previous Barnes chatter to Barnes-specific thread Thanks! It's sorting, however, as if the last post was June 29, not July 28. Brandon Moss, maybe? He hasn't played 1B in awhile though so not sure if he can still do it. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2017 18:45:15 GMT -5
Geez man, in your world, everybody turns out wonderfully. At best Mars and Matheny are #4 outfielders or more likely Mars than Matheny. Mars is not getting you a #2 or #3 starter. He probably won't net you a #5. That's crazy. Mars is likely a .260 hitter with no pop in the majors someday and that's kind of optimistic. Nobody starts a guy like that in CF unless they absolutely have to, and I do think Mars will eventually make the majors. Mark my words. Mars or Matheny will not be the CF in 2021 when JBJ leaves. The only guy with a shot at being a starting CF was the kid they just drafted in the 2nd round - Cole Brannen, and he's a long, long, long way away. You already have Pennington as good as Thornburg was? The only thing they have in common is they've both been injured all year. Pennington's most optimistic world view outcome is Thornburg. Dubon is going to be a solid 2b for the Brewers, but not an all-star unless the all-star game features .275 hitting 2b with little power, but certainly not somebody you're going to dislodge Dustin Pedroia for. Chatham is already 23 and can barely stay healthy enough to play A ball. His progress, to be kind, is very stalled. You can certainly argue the Sox gave up to much for Thornburg, but the year Shaw is having is his best case scenario. Last year was part of the record, too for him. The Shaw the Red Sox dealt last year batted .240 with 15 homers, most of them coming in the first couple of months. The guy actually lost his job last season. Like JimEd said, you are way too optimistic in your projections, way too optimistic. The Red Sox farm system isn't exactly flush in prospects these days and most of the guys you rattled off are fringy at best, certainly not Groome, Houcke, Travis, Swihart, Ockimey, Mata, or Chavis. I mean, looking at this site, it gives you a really good idea of what to anticipate and the strengths and weaknesses of each player. I didn't mention Brennan or Coca because I don't really pay much attention to the GCL and DSL players, just as a disclaimer. I have been wrong in the past, predicting Kuehl McEachern would replace Junichi Tazawa, and predicting Kevin Heller would replace David Ortiz. But I have also been right in the past, predicting that Bradley would break out and Ball would develop slowly. Again, only time can tell. JBJ and Heller are nothing alike as far as JBJ was a highly regarded prospect, an early pick by the Sox in 2011. I don't ever remember ever hearing anybody regard Heller that high or at all for that matter. Never heard of McEachern. You're right about Ball, but he's kind of lost cause at this point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 19:00:19 GMT -5
40-man roster thoughts: At some point, Carson Smith and Roenis Elias (who just started a rehab assignment) will likely be coming off the 60-day DL, and we want to select Jalen Beeks. On the flip side, I think we all agree that Fister is worth a DFA, and Nunez plus the surprising competence of Marrero make Josh Rutledge expendable. And you don't really need four RHR at Pawtucket on the roster. Kyle Martin (whom I didn't think was worth protecting) would probably clear waivers, as might Noe Ramirez, and I don't think that losing one would seriously harm your depth. You already have, for four roster spots if you have two LHR in the pen, Barnes, Kelly, [Smith], Workman, Boyer, and Hembree. That's already a scenario where Smith has to wait until 9/1 and either Workman has to go back to AAA or you go with one LHR, if everyone's healthy. And should they lose Martin and then suffer a rash of injuries, there's Jamie Callahan, who's been great his last 5 weeks / 9 outings (13.1 11 4 4 4 18, 2.70, .567 OPS) and is a guy you'll be protecting anyway. Probably DFA Fister and Rutledge, and trade N. Ramirez, Barnes, and Elias. Select Beeks and Witte, activate Smith. Then you have two more spots to trade for. But also make sure you don't burn an option on Beeks or Witte, we might want to use those later. I'd say that Martin probably has more potential than Callahan, who has a Four-A ceiling, but otherwise I agree with you. |
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Post by bigpupp on Jul 29, 2017 19:08:35 GMT -5
40-man roster thoughts: At some point, Carson Smith and Roenis Elias (who just started a rehab assignment) will likely be coming off the 60-day DL, and we want to select Jalen Beeks. On the flip side, I think we all agree that Fister is worth a DFA, and Nunez plus the surprising competence of Marrero make Josh Rutledge expendable. And you don't really need four RHR at Pawtucket on the roster. Kyle Martin (whom I didn't think was worth protecting) would probably clear waivers, as might Noe Ramirez, and I don't think that losing one would seriously harm your depth. You already have, for four roster spots if you have two LHR in the pen, Barnes, Kelly, [Smith], Workman, Boyer, and Hembree. That's already a scenario where Smith has to wait until 9/1 and either Workman has to go back to AAA or you go with one LHR, if everyone's healthy. And should they lose Martin and then suffer a rash of injuries, there's Jamie Callahan, who's been great his last 5 weeks / 9 outings (13.1 11 4 4 4 18, 2.70, .567 OPS) and is a guy you'll be protecting anyway. Probably DFA Fister, Rutledge, N. Ramirez, Barnes, and Elias. Select Beeks and Witte, activate Smith. Then you have two more spots to trade for. But also make sure you don't burn an option on Beeks or Witte, we might want to use those later. I'd say that Martin probably has more potential than Callahan, who has a Four-A ceiling, but otherwise I agree with you. Who did you mean to say here instead? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 19:14:50 GMT -5
Probably DFA Fister, Rutledge, N. Ramirez, Barnes, and Elias. Select Beeks and Witte, activate Smith. Then you have two more spots to trade for. But also make sure you don't burn an option on Beeks or Witte, we might want to use those later. I'd say that Martin probably has more potential than Callahan, who has a Four-A ceiling, but otherwise I agree with you. Who did you mean to say here instead? I meant to say and trade Ramirez, Barnes, and Elias. Not just DFA and probably have them go free. Thanks for the catch. |
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 29, 2017 19:21:08 GMT -5
I get your point but I think you're vastly overrating the talent level of many of those on your list. A lot of those guys have minimal value, like Rusconi and Wren, whom the Red Sox drafted only because of his father and they knew he'd take the minimum amount of money to sign thus allowing them to sign others like Aaron Perry for example. Like on your yet to debut list, some of those guys are so marginal. Groome, Houcke, Buttrey, and Mars are differing levels of talent with Groome obviously their best prospect and Houcke a valuable commodity as their first round pick. Mars might make it as a #4 OF and Buttrey could make a bullpen, but likely just a fungible relief arm. The rest are questionable. Chatham keeps having injury issues or he'd be a guy with a legit chance. As far as the Shaw deal, it's turned out awfully bad, but if Shaw had been any good at all last season, they wouldn't have dealt him. He was bad enough to lose his job. Dubon is a good prospect. Pennington probably won't amount to much. They also gave up a young SS Coca, who is quite young, but has a legit shot, but really the deal is mostly Shaw. If Shaw and Thornburg had performed the way they did in 2016 nobody would be complaining. Shaw is not some 22 year old kid. He's 27 and this is his career year, kind of what Phil Plantier did back in 1993. I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. The Red Sox also drafted Lovullo because of his father but now he's doing really well. At the end of the day, you may be right. Only time can tell. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. Let me guess, you've never seen most of these guys in person, right? Sounds like you're doing a lot of box score scouting. Lovullo will never play in the major leagues. Neither will Jordan Wren. Dubon will not be all-star. You are just so high in pretty much everyone. I'd suggest reading more scouting reports. A great stat line for a 24 year old in Greenville likely doesn't mean much. Rusconi being drafted in the 4th rd doesn't automatically make him a serious prospect. The scouting reports on him were never there and the performance certainly hasn't been (although he has been injured a lot, too). Some of these guys will be great org guys, and that's important. But just becuse they have great stats, doesn't mean they are great prospects. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 19:38:14 GMT -5
I didn't think about Chatham's injuries, but the question is will it keep up? He's only a few years in to his pro career. Mars will certainly start as #4, but that will likely be only because the Sox already have a stellar outfield. Similarly with Matheny. They will need to trade one of them, but I have them both on the list because I think they need to make sure that they get the right price: a minimum of a solid everyday player or a #2 or #3 starter. The Red Sox also drafted Lovullo because of his father but now he's doing really well. At the end of the day, you may be right. Only time can tell. I think Shaw and Dubon will become regular all-stars, while Pennington will likely become about as good as Thornburg is now. This is why I was about the only one who disliked the trade from the start. Let me guess, you've never seen most of these guys in person, right? Sounds like you're doing a lot of box score scouting. Lovullo will never play in the major leagues. Neither will Jordan Wren. Dubon will not be all-star. You are just so high in pretty much everyone. I'd suggest reading more scouting reports. A great stat line for a 24 year old in Greenville likely doesn't mean much. Rusconi being drafted in the 4th rd doesn't automatically make him a serious prospect. The scouting reports on him were never there and the performance certainly hasn't been (although he has been injured a lot, too). Some of these guys will be great org guys, and that's important. But just becuse they have great stats, doesn't mean they are great prospects. You're right. I'm doing alot of box score scouting, as well as order in the draft scouting. So I might be wrong, but if one of these guys makes it I wouldn't be surprised. And now I want to take Fisher off of the list because he just gave up 5 runs for Lowell. I just don't exactly have time to travel to Salem or Greenville. I'm making predictions, and I don't expect all of these guys to make it. I said potential, and by those standards I would only predict about 1/4 of them to actually become all-stars. I will read the scouting reports. However, I saw Dakota Smith in person in lowell and he looked like the kind of guy who would be a regular #3 or #4 starter, but I know he won't be more than a Quad-A reliever. But if Lovullo can hit in the upper 200s with Salem and Portland, most of those guys will get a cup of tea in the majors. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 29, 2017 20:57:59 GMT -5
Let me guess, you've never seen most of these guys in person, right? Sounds like you're doing a lot of box score scouting. Lovullo will never play in the major leagues. Neither will Jordan Wren. Dubon will not be all-star. You are just so high in pretty much everyone. I'd suggest reading more scouting reports. A great stat line for a 24 year old in Greenville likely doesn't mean much. Rusconi being drafted in the 4th rd doesn't automatically make him a serious prospect. The scouting reports on him were never there and the performance certainly hasn't been (although he has been injured a lot, too). Some of these guys will be great org guys, and that's important. But just becuse they have great stats, doesn't mean they are great prospects. You're right. I'm doing alot of box score scouting, as well as order in the draft scouting. So I might be wrong, but if one of these guys makes it I wouldn't be surprised. And now I want to take Fisher off of the list because he just gave up 5 runs for Lowell. I just don't exactly have time to travel to Salem or Greenville. I'm making predictions, and I don't expect all of these guys to make it. I said potential, and by those standards I would only predict about 1/4 of them to actually become all-stars. I will read the scouting reports. However, I saw Dakota Smith in person in lowell and he looked like the kind of guy who would be a regular #3 or #4 starter, but I know he won't be more than a Quad-A reliever. But if Lovullo can hit in the upper 200s with Salem and Portland, most of those guys will get a cup of tea in the majors. That's not really how it works. To predict 1/4 of those players to be all-stars is wildly optimistic. And scouting the box scores isn't the way to go unless you have context. Context is huge. And most of these guys will never get a cup of coffee in the majors. Again those guys are the exception, not the rule. The Red Sox have approximately 125 - 150 players in their minors. If the Red Sox get 10 of them to the majors that would be plenty and if two or three are all-stars, great. And I'm making these numbers up so the accuracy isn't there but the main point is. |
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Post by soxcentral on Jul 30, 2017 5:29:01 GMT -5
Luis Ysla to Dodgers for cash.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Jul 30, 2017 6:25:08 GMT -5
I am ready to sink or swim with this team. I don't see the point for doing much of anything else, unless it is a major injury issue. This team is talented enough. The 2004 Sox were 56-47 and they ended up with 98 wins. Just need to play better. Kudos to you. Many fan believe they can say, 'they just don't have it this year', yadda yadda yadda. The Sox obviously have the talent and nearly everyone agreed on that before the year. Sure there are signs that are less then stellar but there also has been legitimate reasons to explain part of that away. The truth is as long as they make the post-season with the starting rotation they have (possibly the bullpen if Carson Smith, J. Kelly and others are healthy) they could win it all if they get healthy. Anyone who has watched several seasons and learned the lessons that the seasons taught you, even when you are right about something it's seldom for the reasons you claimed |
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Post by giatree12 on Jul 30, 2017 7:00:05 GMT -5
I am ready to sink or swim with this team. I don't see the point for doing much of anything else, unless it is a major injury issue. This team is talented enough. The 2004 Sox were 56-47 and they ended up with 98 wins. Just need to play better. Kudos to you. Many fan believe they can say, 'they just don't have it this year', yadda yadda yadda. The Sox obviously have the talent and nearly everyone agreed on that before the year. Sure there are signs that are less then stellar but there also has been legitimate reasons to explain part of that away. The truth is as long as they make the post-season with the starting rotation they have (possibly the bullpen if Carson Smith, J. Kelly and others are healthy) they could win it all if they get healthy. Anyone who has watched several seasons and learned the lessons that the seasons taught you, even when you are right about something it's seldom for the reasons you claimed |
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Post by giatree12 on Jul 30, 2017 7:03:22 GMT -5
I am 100% in the same boat, jerry. This team is so inconsistent it is frustrating. With all the drama going on in that clubhouse it's hard to be in love with them, so i've accepted both outcomes of sinking all together or them pulling it together and becoming a legit contender. The most frustrating part is the season Sale is having, and potentially wasting that. I hope mookie, xander, beni, etc. can pull it together and make this team fearful again.
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Post by giatree12 on Jul 30, 2017 7:23:29 GMT -5
Also, it is nice to see that DD was right in choosing to prioritize keeping Devers over Moncada. Very small sample size and many more years to go, but 26 K's in 53 AB's is extremely concerning.
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