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2017 Trade Deadline Thread (Red Sox discussion)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 11, 2017 12:53:46 GMT -5
If I may step in at this point, let's keep this thread focused on the 2017 trade deadline. Plenty of other places to discuss both Travis Shaw and other older trades. Thanks.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 11, 2017 14:59:07 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 11, 2017 15:26:05 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 11, 2017 15:31:31 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing.
I wouldn't pay a big price
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 11, 2017 15:33:56 GMT -5
I've proposed trades for Nunez in the past, I think he is a good target. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 11, 2017 15:56:46 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 11, 2017 16:59:38 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. You're right Miller too... two of the most dominant relievers of any kind the last decade. Anyone who doesn't fall into that category barely moves the needle. I wouldn't pay much for a reliever. And I love relief pitching more than most but their cost to trade for in season is why I like to sign the good ones in the offseason |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 11, 2017 17:04:58 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. Also, especially in today's game, you figure that most successful teams probably already have a half decent bullpen with a weapon or two. And it depends on what "turning out to do little or nothing" means. Does the team making the trade have to win the World Series? Do they just have to get better? Joe Smith to the Cubs, Will Smith to the Giants, Mark Melancon to the Nationals were all also pretty important bullpen pieces for playoff teams just last season. EDIT: And per your point above, agreed that you'd prefer to do that in the offseason. That's certainly what Dombrowski's tried to do. That's why it baffles me that the Nationals didn't go harder after a RP. They're about to get fleeced because every team in baseball knows they need a closer, probably more than any team in the game needs anything right now. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 11, 2017 17:14:34 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. Exactly. You can argue that Ziegler was one of the best trades in Dombrowski's time here. A top 20 prospect for Neshek? Like a Beeks or Lankins? Sign me up. |
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jul 11, 2017 20:20:37 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Because if 15 RP are traded at the deadline, only 2 are good and the other 13 are equivalent to RP in the receiving team's AAA club or just slightly better. Hard for 0.1 - 0.5 half-season win upgrades to push the needle. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 12, 2017 6:13:33 GMT -5
Relievers won't push the needle regardless in the regular season. That isn't where the value is. The value is in the postseason where bullpens are arguably one of the most important pieces, if not the most important part of the team.
Heck, the Indians beat the Sox with Miller, Shaw, Kluber, and Cody Allen. That was the 4 most important pitchers that stood on their heads and swept the Sox. 3 of those guys are bullpen arms.
The Sox are probably going to win the division this year. One more bullpen move is made to advance further into the postseason.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 12, 2017 7:06:02 GMT -5
Relievers won't push the needle regardless in the regular season. That isn't where the value is. The value is in the postseason where bullpens are arguably one of the most important pieces, if not the most important part of the team. Heck, the Indians beat the Sox with Miller, Shaw, Kluber, and Cody Allen. That was the 4 most important pitchers that stood on their heads and swept the Sox. 3 of those guys are bullpen arms. In all three games of that series the starters left with the lead. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks the Red Sox could use an additional good reliever, but let's not infuse lessons where there aren't any - the Indians beat the Red Sox last October because they played better across the board. It wasn't some situation where their roster had some October-specific advantage. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 12, 2017 9:42:57 GMT -5
Relievers won't push the needle regardless in the regular season. That isn't where the value is. The value is in the postseason where bullpens are arguably one of the most important pieces, if not the most important part of the team. Heck, the Indians beat the Sox with Miller, Shaw, Kluber, and Cody Allen. That was the 4 most important pitchers that stood on their heads and swept the Sox. 3 of those guys are bullpen arms. The Sox are probably going to win the division this year. One more bullpen move is made to advance further into the postseason. Ehhh, I don't know about that. The 2011 Atlanta Braves blew an 8.5-game lead in the final month in large part because their bullpen faltered. Not that this was the only thing that went wrong, but they missed the postseason by a single game after going 9-18 down the stretch. And whaddya know, their closer was a young kid by the name of Kimbrel who'd been overused (as had Venters, who also collapsed in September)... |
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Post by kalinis on Jul 12, 2017 10:10:36 GMT -5
It's third base. All third base. I made a Mike Moustakas trade thread a month ago expressing my desire to upgrade here and I think he's the best player and fit (the combination of defense and left handed power). In one sense, you're denting the system by possibly trading a couple top 20 guys in the system for a rental. In another sense, you're helping the system because you're not rushing Devers development by promoting him this year. If the Moustakas trade market gets ridiculous then find a cheaper alternative (Plouffe, Frazier) and promote Devers sometime late in the year. 3b and a reliever are biggest issues on this team especially with erod coming back, that said moustakas isn't available at this time kc actually is looking to buy as they aren't far out of the central or wild card races, that leaves a very thing core of guys in todd frazier, really last I saw was hitting under 220, and martin prado, so 3b upgrade may have to come in form of brock holt getting back or Rafael devers. |
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 12, 2017 10:22:40 GMT -5
Lin has 0.7 fWAR in parts of 15 games or 3+ more than Sandoval has given us in 3 seasons. Give him a few more games.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Jul 12, 2017 10:34:11 GMT -5
I like Frazier. Great team guy. Durable. Contract year. Hitting in Fenway during the summer may spike his numbers (Like Beltre). I'm sure during the 1st month of the year hitting in Comiskey isn't fun. He'll be cheaper and has more of a track record than Moustakas.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 12, 2017 11:41:08 GMT -5
We've got a lot of money tied up in our starting rotation. Any chance of a money for money trade? We acquire a bat for a pitcher. I'm thinking
Porcello for a bat whom a team isn't thrilled to keep paying.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 12, 2017 13:05:18 GMT -5
We've got a lot of money tied up in our starting rotation. Any chance of a money for money trade? We acquire a bat for a pitcher. I'm thinking Porcello for a bat whom a team isn't thrilled to keep paying. We talked about salary swaps a bit in the off season, I believe. The bats with long (or longish) deals I recall fitting the potential salary exchange definition were: Stanton, Votto, Cano, Justin Upton and Miguel Cabrera - and then you get into the damaged goods like Pujols, Hanley and Pablo. It's tough to find a fit in a position of need among that group - unless you can persuade Cano to play 3rd. With the DH currently filled it's tough, unless you get one of the first basemen and flip Moreland at the deadline to another contender who needs that or a DH. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 12, 2017 13:09:31 GMT -5
Would prefer that this thread not stray too far into hypothetical territory. I don't think we're there yet, but let's try to keep things grounded in reality, particularly things that have been reported or at least in areas we know the Red Sox may go in.
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KB24
Rookie
Posts: 150 
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Post by KB24 on Jul 12, 2017 14:01:38 GMT -5
I like Frazier. Great team guy. Durable. Contract year. Hitting in Fenway during the summer may spike his numbers (Like Beltre). I'm sure during the 1st month of the year hitting in Comiskey isn't fun. He'll be cheaper and has more of a track record than Moustakas. I echo this. With Frazier's pull rate and flyball rate, he would be taylor made for Fenway Park |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 12, 2017 14:01:40 GMT -5
Relievers won't push the needle regardless in the regular season. That isn't where the value is. The value is in the postseason where bullpens are arguably one of the most important pieces, if not the most important part of the team. Heck, the Indians beat the Sox with Miller, Shaw, Kluber, and Cody Allen. That was the 4 most important pitchers that stood on their heads and swept the Sox. 3 of those guys are bullpen arms. In all three games of that series the starters left with the lead. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks the Red Sox could use an additional good reliever, but let's not infuse lessons where there aren't any - the Indians beat the Red Sox last October because they played better across the board. It wasn't some situation where their roster had some October-specific advantage. Yes but I believe in games 1 and 3 Miller pitched at least 2 innings in both games and Allen pitched more than a inning both games also. Those pitchers changed the whole series. Their bullpen except for Kluber carried them in that series. Their starters except for Kluber barley lasted in their games. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 12, 2017 14:04:02 GMT -5
Relievers won't push the needle regardless in the regular season. That isn't where the value is. The value is in the postseason where bullpens are arguably one of the most important pieces, if not the most important part of the team. Heck, the Indians beat the Sox with Miller, Shaw, Kluber, and Cody Allen. That was the 4 most important pitchers that stood on their heads and swept the Sox. 3 of those guys are bullpen arms. The Sox are probably going to win the division this year. One more bullpen move is made to advance further into the postseason. Ehhh, I don't know about that. The 2011 Atlanta Braves blew an 8.5-game lead in the final month in large part because their bullpen faltered. Not that this was the only thing that went wrong, but they missed the postseason by a single game after going 9-18 down the stretch. And whaddya know, their closer was a young kid by the name of Kimbrel who'd been overused (as had Venters, who also collapsed in September)... Ohh yes, a terrible bullpen collapse can make all the difference. You're right. I just don't see this Sox team's bullpen totally collapsing with Smith returning hopefully and a trade at the deadline. |
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Post by geostorm on Jul 12, 2017 14:10:13 GMT -5
Why do I feel like most trades for relief pitchers have no impact on a team winning. Chapman obviously was a game changer for the Cubs but the vast majority of them turn out to do little or nothing. I wouldn't pay a big price Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. (off topic, jimed - your avatar, was "all over" the Impossible Dream hour long special on MLB Network, Sunday...did you catch that? Every time I saw certain celebratory video clips of Yaz during the special, kept thinking "jimed"!  ) |
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 12, 2017 14:59:50 GMT -5
Miller and Chapman were pretty much the main reasons why those two teams were in the WS last year. (off topic, jimed - your avatar, was "all over" the Impossible Dream hour long special on MLB Network, Sunday...did you catch that? Every time I saw certain celebratory video clips of Yaz during the special, kept thinking "jimed"! ) Ha nice! I have it on my DVR ready to watch. It was before my time, but I still am fascinated with that team. I was a huge Yaz fan along with Jim Ed obviously, even though I copied Dewey's batting stance. |
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Post by manfred on Jul 12, 2017 15:22:21 GMT -5
So, while a trade for Neshek, if not too pricey, would be welcome, I wonder if the answer might be waiting on Smith. Then, I also wonder if, come playoffs, the Sox could drop to Sale, Porcello, and Price as starters and make Pomeranz a kind of Andrew Miller guy. His fastball has been harder recently and might play up even more in short stints.
I am all for not trading for a 3B. Lin and Marrero will probably come back to Earth with a thud, but if they keep defending, that's fine.
That puts me in the stand pat category, I guess. The only exception would be a bigger trade that helps for a while... but I don't know what that would be.
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