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8/21-8/24 Red Sox @ Indians Series Thread
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 21, 2017 22:30:18 GMT -5
Very discouraging game - leaving the bullpen management aside... concerns - Nunez is swinging from the heels at everything - 19 pitches in 5 AB. 6 walks, lots of baserunners, only 4 runs (two homers)...Mookie, Xander, Brock, Devers, JBJ rough nights as well...and why wasn't Vazquez on 2nd? my main concern - not convinced we match up all that well with this team that we are likely to meet in the playoffs - and Francona must be having a laugh over the bullpen mgt. The positives - ERod pitched well enough to win, Robby Scott 2 big Ks, Beni and Hanley big HRs. It's always good to have the positives pointed out. It was a tough game to lose, but I like our team. They are resilient and I expect them to be back in it tomorrow.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 21, 2017 22:33:14 GMT -5
Very discouraging game - leaving the bullpen management aside... concerns - Nunez is swinging from the heels at everything - 19 pitches in 5 AB. 6 walks, lots of baserunners, only 4 runs (two homers)...Mookie, Xander, Brock, Devers, JBJ rough nights as well...and why wasn't Vazquez on 2nd? my main concern - not convinced we match up all that well with this team that we are likely to meet in the playoffs - and Francona must be having a laugh over the bullpen mgt. The positives - ERod pitched well enough to win, Robby Scott 2 big Ks, Beni and Hanley big HRs. It's always good to have the positives pointed out. It was a tough game to lose, but I like our team. They are resilient and I expect them to be back in it tomorrow. Agreed - if ERod can get that one challenging inning out of his system, he is nearly there. This team has really had a hard time getting all of the pieces working together - I am quite surprised that Mookie is having such a struggle making hard contact. Xander has been a concern for a long time. Hanley may be about to bash a bit. The bullpen stuff really detracted from what was a really good game...and it certainly was an interesting one. We could hit 50 pages of responses in this 4 game series!
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 21, 2017 22:33:38 GMT -5
Maybe if Terry Collins hadn't pushed him to work so many worthless Mets games then he'd have been available tonight. EDIT: I'm serious, "he should've been available" is a stupid complain-y argument. "He shouldn't be fatigued because he was worked so hard earlier in the year which proves you can work him hard" spits in the face of all logic. It's like if Chris Sale threw 130 pitches for three straight starts, then went on the DL and being all "he can't be hurt, look at how many pitches he threw!" I'm happy that you care about Reed's long term health with his next team. Maybe Reed and you can send a thank you card to John Farrell for saving his arm later in his career. Terry Collins was pitching a pitcher like as if he was a rental pitcher, as like he should have been to try and win ballgames. You're going to keep fighting this strawman, huh? Addison Reed's availability tonight had nothing to do with his 2018 status. Nothing. Zero. Nobody has made that claim. It's not that. So stop saying it.
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Post by grandsalami on Aug 21, 2017 22:34:34 GMT -5
Maybe if Terry Collins hadn't pushed him to work so many worthless Mets games then he'd have been available tonight. EDIT: I'm serious, "he should've been available" is a stupid complain-y argument. "He shouldn't be fatigued because he was worked so hard earlier in the year which proves you can work him hard" spits in the face of all logic. It's like if Chris Sale threw 130 pitches for three straight starts, then went on the DL and being all "he can't be hurt, look at how many pitches he threw!" I'm happy that you care about Reed's long term health with his next team. Maybe Reed and you can send a thank you card to John Farrell for saving his arm later in his career. Terry Collins was pitching a pitcher like as if he was a rental pitcher, as like he should have been to try and win ballgames. Oh. So if we over use him In the regular season it won't affect reed until next season? You know dann well that if we over use him in the regular season it will come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs. See: TAZAWA
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 21, 2017 22:36:12 GMT -5
I'm happy that you care about Reed's long term health with his next team. Maybe Reed and you can send a thank you card to John Farrell for saving his arm later in his career. Terry Collins was pitching a pitcher like as if he was a rental pitcher, as like he should have been to try and win ballgames. Oh. So if we over use him In the regular season it won't affect reed until next season? You know dann well that if we over use him in the regular season it will come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs. I mean, you surely remember how Junichi Tazawa's overuse never affected him within the bounds of the same season, which is why Farrell was right to work him so hard and why everyone gave Farrell so much credit for working him so hard. EDIT: I see from your well-timed edit that you recall it quite well!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2017 22:39:19 GMT -5
I'm happy that you care about Reed's long term health with his next team. Maybe Reed and you can send a thank you card to John Farrell for saving his arm later in his career. Terry Collins was pitching a pitcher like as if he was a rental pitcher, as like he should have been to try and win ballgames. Oh. So if we over use him In the regular season it won't affect reed until next season? You know dann well that if we over use him in the regular season it will come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs. See: TAZAWA Yeah it sure did bite Tazawa in the 2013 playoffs, when he was a key member in winning it all.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2017 22:41:35 GMT -5
Oh. So if we over use him In the regular season it won't affect reed until next season? You know dann well that if we over use him in the regular season it will come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs. I mean, you surely remember how Junichi Tazawa's overuse never affected him within the bounds of the same season, which is why Farrell was right to work him so hard and why everyone gave Farrell so much credit for working him so hard. EDIT: I see from your well-timed edit that you recall it quite well! I edited the part where I used the words "should of" instead of "should have." I keep messing that up. I remember Farrell working Tazawa like a dog and I remember the Sox winning in 2013. That's what I remember.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2017 22:42:48 GMT -5
There is zero reason not to burn Reed out right now. Just like Joe Maddon did with Chapman last year. What do you have to lose with a rental? Homestly?
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 21, 2017 22:44:32 GMT -5
There is zero reason not to burn Reed out right now. Just like Joe Maddon did with Chapman last year. What do you have to lose with a rental? Homestly? You do that in the playoffs. You don't do that now because the more likely scenario is him being exhausted when the playoffs do come around.
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Post by brendan98 on Aug 21, 2017 22:46:11 GMT -5
Disappointing loss, at the very least a questionable use of the bullpen by Farrell. Barnes is practically unusable in a close game, there's just no way to know whether he's going to be able to throw strikes, using him in a close game isn't a whole lot better than just rolling dice. In my mind Barnes has been very disappointing this season, the Red Sox certainly could have used him stepping up after all of the bullpen injuries, it was a great opportunity for him, but he is just non competitive too often to trust (except if your JF).
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 21, 2017 22:47:39 GMT -5
Oh. So if we over use him In the regular season it won't affect reed until next season? You know dann well that if we over use him in the regular season it will come back and bite us in the ass in the playoffs. See: TAZAWA Yeah it sure did bite Tazawa in the 2013 playoffs, when he was a key member in winning it all. Tazawa didn't pitch three consecutive times at any point in the 2013 regular season. Funny that was the season he maintained his effectively. Pure coincidence and all.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 22:52:34 GMT -5
Disappointing loss and this one could be problematic. With Fister going tomorrow and Kluber going the next day, it's pretty plausible that the Sox could drop the first three games of this series.
I figure this was the game they had to have of the first three games. I know he didn't want to go to Workman, but he wound up having to anyways. He should have gone with Workman in the 8th and had Kimbrel for the 9th. Then rest them for the next couple of days along with resting Reed today.
Neither Barnes or Embree can be trusted at this point. I think it's fair to wonder if they're pitching tired. They've pitched an awful lot at this point and I have to wonder if it's catching up to them. Either way I have no desire to see Barnes in a close game in the 8th for a game that's necessary to win.
The biggest thing about these games are that if the Red Sox can hang onto the AL East lead supposedly it's advantageous for the Red Sox to get the home field advantage in the ALDS against Cleveland since unless the Sox blow the East lead, it looks like they'll be lined up against the Indians.
At this point the Sox have to hope that Miller doesn't get healthy. Right now the Indians look like the best team in the league, or at least I think they do.
I have to hope it's the opposite of last season. Last year the Sox won 5 of 7 with Cleveland and the Indians were decimated with injuries so it was like you were practically begging for the Sox to play the Indians.
Maybe this year, with the Sox struggling against the Indians, and the Indian on paper looking stronger this year than last, maybe the Sox would play Cleveland a lot tougher in the post-season this year just because baseball is a strange game.
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Post by brendan98 on Aug 21, 2017 22:55:41 GMT -5
Disappointing loss and this one could be problematic. With Fister going tomorrow and Kluber going the next day, it's pretty plausible that the Sox could drop the first three games of this series. I figure this was the game they had to have of the first three games. I know he didn't want to go to Workman, but he wound up having to anyways. He should have gone with Workman in the 8th and had Kimbrel for the 9th. Then rest them for the next couple of days along with resting Reed today. Neither Barnes or Embree can be trusted at this point. I think it's fair to wonder if they're pitching tired. They've pitched an awful lot at this point and I have to wonder if it's catching up to them. Either way I have no desire to see Barnes in a close game in the 8th for a game that's necessary to win. The biggest thing about these games are that if the Red Sox can hang onto the AL East lead supposedly it's advantageous for the Red Sox to get the home field advantage in the ALDS against Cleveland since unless the Sox blow the East lead, it looks like they'll be lined up against the Indians. At this point the Sox have to hope that Miller doesn't get healthy. Right now the Indians look like the best team in the league, or at least I think they do. I have to hope it's the opposite of last season. Last year the Sox won 5 of 7 with Cleveland and the Indians were decimated with injuries so it was like you were practically begging for the Sox to play the Indians. Maybe this year, with the Sox struggling against the Indians, and the Indian on paper looking stronger this year than last, maybe the Sox would play Cleveland a lot tougher in the post-season this year just because baseball is a strange game. Also, last year the Red Sox were clearly out managed in the playoffs by Francona, hard to see that going differently this year!
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 21, 2017 22:56:39 GMT -5
Listening to the interview of Barnes - he is pretty down on himself - he realizes that he struggles on the road and has control problems. Not sure what the answer is - do you keep running him out there (a la Bogaerts), or save him for where he thrives - home...it can't be fun at all for him, as he's had to answer questions after this type of failure quite a few times this year.
But this is where ballplayers need a manager that sets them up for success...not repeated failure.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 22:56:52 GMT -5
Yeah it sure did bite Tazawa in the 2013 playoffs, when he was a key member in winning it all. Tazawa didn't pitch three consecutive times at any point in the 2013 regular season. Funny that was the season he maintained his effectively. Pure coincidence and all. FWIW Tazawa's usage in the post-season was kind of strange. He was sort of a ROOGY. He was matched up on an injured Miguel Cabrera in the ALCS, and even in the Series he had short outings. I always wondered why Farrell called upon Tazawa to come in to get the biggest out of clinching Game 6 of the Series - the last out of the 7th inning with the bases loaded, the Sox leading 6-1 with Allen Craig up. Tazawa threw two pitches, got the groundout to Napoli for the last out, and was immediately lifted for Workman in the 8th inning instead of continuing on in the game. I never heard an explanation of why Farrell didn't send Tazawa out for the 8th inning.
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Post by brendan98 on Aug 21, 2017 22:58:57 GMT -5
Listening to the interview of Barnes - he is pretty down on himself - he realizes that he struggles on the road and has control problems. Not sure what the answer is - do you keep running him out there (a la Bogaerts), or save him for where he thrives - home...it can't be fun at all for him, as he's had to answer questions after this type of failure quite a few times this year. I feel for him, no doubt he wants to pitch better, and probably wouldn't be in these situations if not for injuries and a manager who fails to adjust.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 22:59:48 GMT -5
Disappointing loss and this one could be problematic. With Fister going tomorrow and Kluber going the next day, it's pretty plausible that the Sox could drop the first three games of this series. I figure this was the game they had to have of the first three games. I know he didn't want to go to Workman, but he wound up having to anyways. He should have gone with Workman in the 8th and had Kimbrel for the 9th. Then rest them for the next couple of days along with resting Reed today. Neither Barnes or Embree can be trusted at this point. I think it's fair to wonder if they're pitching tired. They've pitched an awful lot at this point and I have to wonder if it's catching up to them. Either way I have no desire to see Barnes in a close game in the 8th for a game that's necessary to win. The biggest thing about these games are that if the Red Sox can hang onto the AL East lead supposedly it's advantageous for the Red Sox to get the home field advantage in the ALDS against Cleveland since unless the Sox blow the East lead, it looks like they'll be lined up against the Indians. At this point the Sox have to hope that Miller doesn't get healthy. Right now the Indians look like the best team in the league, or at least I think they do. I have to hope it's the opposite of last season. Last year the Sox won 5 of 7 with Cleveland and the Indians were decimated with injuries so it was like you were practically begging for the Sox to play the Indians. Maybe this year, with the Sox struggling against the Indians, and the Indian on paper looking stronger this year than last, maybe the Sox would play Cleveland a lot tougher in the post-season this year just because baseball is a strange game. Also, last year the Red Sox were clearly out managed in the playoffs by Francona, hard to see that going differently this year! While I'd take Francona any day over Farrell, they lost to Cleveland because the offense sucked and Porcello and Price had poor outings while Buchholz was mediocre and Pomeranz gave up a killer HR to Crisp. They didn't lose because Farrell made a boneheaded decision. They lost because the players played horrendously. I can't honestly pin last year's loss to Cleveland on Farrell. Not that he couldn't find a way to mess this year's series up. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a boneheaded base running blunder somewhere and if Brock Holt sees 1b or is a must in the lineup, then I'll be pretty annoyed at Farrell - or if we see Barnes and/or Hembree in the 8th inning again with a lead or tie game.
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Post by brendan98 on Aug 21, 2017 23:02:13 GMT -5
Also, last year the Red Sox were clearly out managed in the playoffs by Francona, hard to see that going differently this year! While I'd take Francona any day over Farrell, they lost to Cleveland because the offense sucked and Porcello and Price had poor outings while Buchholz was mediocre and Pomeranz gave up a killer HR to Crisp. They didn't lose because Farrell made a boneheaded decision. They lost because the players played horrendously. I can't honestly pin last year's loss to Cleveland on Farrell. Not that he couldn't find a way to mess this year's series up. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a boneheaded blunder somewhere and if Brock Holt sees 1b or is a must in the lineup, then I'll be pretty annoyed at Farrell - or if we see Barnes and/or Hembree in the 8th inning again with a lead or tie game. I wasn't talking about Farrell's failures as much as I was Francona's brilliance last year. Franconas management of his bullpen was brilliant against the Sox and throughout the postseason IMO.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 21, 2017 23:03:48 GMT -5
Also, last year the Red Sox were clearly out managed in the playoffs by Francona, hard to see that going differently this year! While I'd take Francona any day over Farrell, they lost to Cleveland because the offense sucked and Porcello and Price had poor outings while Buchholz was mediocre and Pomeranz gave up a killer HR to Crisp. They didn't lose because Farrell made a boneheaded decision. They lost because the players played horrendously. I can't honestly pin last year's loss to Cleveland on Farrell. Not that he couldn't find a way to mess this year's series up. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a boneheaded base running blunder somewhere and if Brock Holt sees 1b or is a must in the lineup, then I'll be pretty annoyed at Farrell - or if we see Barnes and/or Hembree in the 8th inning again with a lead or tie game. There is one aspect of last year I would pin on Farrell. they essentially backed in - took the pedal totally off the metal once they clinched - I know they had to find some players a bit of rest, but they totally lost their offense, their aggressiveness, and it persisted in the Cle series. It is impossible to just turn the offense back on once it has been turned off...from what I've seen through years of watching baseball.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2017 23:06:28 GMT -5
Yeah it sure did bite Tazawa in the 2013 playoffs, when he was a key member in winning it all. Tazawa didn't pitch three consecutive times at any point in the 2013 regular season. Funny that was the season he maintained his effectively. Pure coincidence and all. Reed has done it a bunch like I pointed out this year and he seems fine. Reed is a proven workhorse too unlike Tazawa, who had always shown a tendency to fade in the second half of every year. Reed isn't fading right now. He gets better with each appearance he sees.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 23:07:17 GMT -5
While I'd take Francona any day over Farrell, they lost to Cleveland because the offense sucked and Porcello and Price had poor outings while Buchholz was mediocre and Pomeranz gave up a killer HR to Crisp. They didn't lose because Farrell made a boneheaded decision. They lost because the players played horrendously. I can't honestly pin last year's loss to Cleveland on Farrell. Not that he couldn't find a way to mess this year's series up. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a boneheaded blunder somewhere and if Brock Holt sees 1b or is a must in the lineup, then I'll be pretty annoyed at Farrell - or if we see Barnes and/or Hembree in the 8th inning again with a lead or tie game. I wasn't talking about Farrell's failures as much as I was Francona's brilliance last year. Franconas management of his bullpen was brilliant against the Sox and throughout the postseason IMO. It was brilliant, but then again Francona had two closers in that pen of his so he used Miller as a fireman but with Miller out of the game there was practically no dropoff to Allen. Farrell didn't have an option like that last season, but still it was a credit to Francona for how he managed that situation, and Cleveland did pay dearly to secure Miller's services. Tito clearly was the best Sox manager I've seen the Sox have in 37 years of watching. This season the dropoff from Kimbrel to somebody else would probably be huge At this point would you trust anybody in that pen other than Kimbrel to close out a 1 run lead in the 9th regardless of what part of the batting order is up? I personally wouldn't. I like Workman as the 2nd best reliever, ahead of Reed at this point perhaps, but Workman didn't make it out of the 9th today, although having Holt at 1b didn't help.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2017 23:07:58 GMT -5
There is zero reason not to burn Reed out right now. Just like Joe Maddon did with Chapman last year. What do you have to lose with a rental? Homestly? You do that in the playoffs. You don't do that now because the more likely scenario is him being exhausted when the playoffs do come around. You don't do it now, then you might be going on the road in the playoffs like last year, or even worse might lose the division.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 23:12:55 GMT -5
While I'd take Francona any day over Farrell, they lost to Cleveland because the offense sucked and Porcello and Price had poor outings while Buchholz was mediocre and Pomeranz gave up a killer HR to Crisp. They didn't lose because Farrell made a boneheaded decision. They lost because the players played horrendously. I can't honestly pin last year's loss to Cleveland on Farrell. Not that he couldn't find a way to mess this year's series up. Wouldn't be hard to imagine a boneheaded base running blunder somewhere and if Brock Holt sees 1b or is a must in the lineup, then I'll be pretty annoyed at Farrell - or if we see Barnes and/or Hembree in the 8th inning again with a lead or tie game. There is one aspect of last year I would pin on Farrell. they essentially backed in - took the pedal totally off the metal once they clinched - I know they had to find some players a bit of rest, but they totally lost their offense, their aggressiveness, and it persisted in the Cle series. It is impossible to just turn the offense back on once it has been turned off...from what I've seen through years of watching baseball. I'm not sure of that. I remember the 2000 Yankees going 3-15 down the stretch and then turning back into the defending champs once the post-season happened. The 2007 Red Sox slowed down their pace and didn't sell out to win the division. The Yankees fortunately did the same and both did for the same reason - resting players. What good does it do you if the team is clinched but then you play your players to the point one of them gets injured? I think you're usually going to see teams treat meaningless games as if they were spring training once it's past clinching time and there's very little to play for. I think with the 2016 Red Sox, they simply peaked too soon. I also heard another theory - take it with a grain of salt - from Oil Can Boyd who was there at spring training this year, that the Sox were kind of pooped out from all of the Ortiz hoopla at the end of the year. Ortiz certainly seemed mentally exhausted and it showed in his play. Perhaps the team had some of that going on. It's an interesting theory anyways. And the 2016 Red Sox had a penchant for losing close games, and two of them in the ALDS were 1 run losses while the other loss was a Kluber gem which featured more terrible post-season starting pitching from David Price.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 21, 2017 23:15:24 GMT -5
There is one aspect of last year I would pin on Farrell. they essentially backed in - took the pedal totally off the metal once they clinched - I know they had to find some players a bit of rest, but they totally lost their offense, their aggressiveness, and it persisted in the Cle series. It is impossible to just turn the offense back on once it has been turned off...from what I've seen through years of watching baseball. I'm not sure of that. I remember the 2000 Yankees going 3-15 down the stretch and then turning back into the defending champs once the post-season happened. The 2007 Red Sox slowed down their pace and didn't sell out to win the division. The Yankees fortunately did the same and both did for the same reason - resting players. What good does it do you if the team is clinched but then you play your players to the point one of them gets injured? I think you're usually going to see teams treat meaningless games as if they were spring training once it's past clinching time and there's very little to play for. I think with the 2016 Red Sox, they simply peaked too soon. I also heard another theory - take it with a grain of salt - from Oil Can Boyd who was there at spring training this year, that the Sox were kind of pooped out from all of the Ortiz hoopla at the end of the year. Ortiz certainly seemed mentally exhausted and it showed in his play. Perhaps the team had some of that going on. It's an interesting theory anyways. And the 2016 Red Sox had a penchant for losing close games, and two of them in the ALDS were 1 run losses while the other loss was a Kluber gem which featured more terrible post-season starting pitching from David Price. Interesting views - thanks for sharing. The offense did seem completely burned out at the end of last year - runs scored plummeted.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 21, 2017 23:19:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure of that. I remember the 2000 Yankees going 3-15 down the stretch and then turning back into the defending champs once the post-season happened. The 2007 Red Sox slowed down their pace and didn't sell out to win the division. The Yankees fortunately did the same and both did for the same reason - resting players. What good does it do you if the team is clinched but then you play your players to the point one of them gets injured? I think you're usually going to see teams treat meaningless games as if they were spring training once it's past clinching time and there's very little to play for. I think with the 2016 Red Sox, they simply peaked too soon. I also heard another theory - take it with a grain of salt - from Oil Can Boyd who was there at spring training this year, that the Sox were kind of pooped out from all of the Ortiz hoopla at the end of the year. Ortiz certainly seemed mentally exhausted and it showed in his play. Perhaps the team had some of that going on. It's an interesting theory anyways. And the 2016 Red Sox had a penchant for losing close games, and two of them in the ALDS were 1 run losses while the other loss was a Kluber gem which featured more terrible post-season starting pitching from David Price. Interesting views - thanks for sharing. The offense did seem completely burned out at the end of last year - runs scored plummeted. I saw Oil Can at a banquet just before the season started and he said there was some discussion at spring training about the Ortiz ceremonies being a distraction. It's just a theory, but who knows? It was interesting anyways.
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