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Post by pbsabredsox on Aug 21, 2017 23:55:15 GMT -5
Okay so I guess it's understandable if Reed wasn't available that he went to Barnes. For the initial protagonists, Barnes just seems to fail in these big spots over and over. He was used in many high leverage spots last year as well and we saw similar failure. One thing i haven't seen posted by anyone is the drop in velocity. I remember him hitting 97-99 with ease last year. I will admit i haven't looked at Brooks Baseball too closely on him to study more. Farrell needs to stop with his obsession with Barnes. I will say, Farrell isn't dumb (I think...)a healthy Carson Smith will supersede Barnes in high leverage and make potential post-season decision making easier.
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Post by Coreno on Aug 21, 2017 23:57:29 GMT -5
yikes. whole lot of "logic" and "facts" going around here tonight.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 5:58:59 GMT -5
Just so we're all clear with the Farrell apologists, neither Barnes nor Hembree can pitch in high leverage or else Farrell is an idiot. I'd even have Abad in there before them.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Aug 22, 2017 6:47:51 GMT -5
Seems to me Farrell failed simple game theory here. 1. Have a small lead - use best to likely win game -make them unavailable for 1-2 days. 2.Fail to use them increase chance to lose game.
A. Next games have 4 possibililties 1. Blow out lead no need to use 2. Blow out loss no need to use 3. Small lead - need to use (unavailable) 4. Small trail/tie - no need to use
These possibilities exist for the next 3 games - unavailability exists for 1-2 games. Best strategy is to take the game in and and ten possibly lose the next game (which may not require them) if that's the way it rolls. THis is even more true with Fister going which increases the likelihood of the blow out loss anyway.
Use tem in Game one and save them for game 4 (the Sale start) to give team best chance for at least a split. Maybe the offense steals one of the two middle games.
Farrell's bullpen management increased the chance to lose this game meaning that a 3-1 series is very unlikely and 1-3 series more likely.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 6:59:22 GMT -5
Just so we're all clear with the Farrell apologists, neither Barnes nor Hembree can pitch in high leverage or else Farrell is an idiot. I'd even have Abad in there before them. In addition he's just been overusing them.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2017 7:03:48 GMT -5
Just so we're all clear with the Farrell apologists, neither Barnes nor Hembree can pitch in high leverage or else Farrell is an idiot. I'd even have Abad in there before them. In addition he's just been overusing them. To illustrate how being a manager when a bullpen gives up runs is an impossible situation, we now have overlapping arguments that Farrell is a) overusing his relievers, and b) not pushing his relievers hard enough because it's the stretch run.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2017 7:29:36 GMT -5
So if half the pen was either unavailable or "I'd like to stay away from them," then why start ERod, who has a fighting chance against the line-up but will likely only last 6 innings? Why not start Fister and say screw it? Now you go into tonight with an even more compromised pen and a guy starting whi may not even get you five innings?
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Post by soxcentral on Aug 22, 2017 7:54:11 GMT -5
Farrell said a couple days ago it was because he wanted ERod to slot in between the two RHP.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2017 7:54:28 GMT -5
So if half the pen was either unavailable or "I'd like to stay away from them," then why start ERod, who has a fighting chance against the line-up but will likely only last 6 innings? Why not start Fister and say screw it? Now you go into tonight with an even more compromised pen and a guy starting whi may not even get you five innings? I'm not sure I understand how swapping them would have helped. Are you basically saying that with the bullpen depleted they should have just punted the game?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 7:58:31 GMT -5
So if half the pen was either unavailable or "I'd like to stay away from them," then why start ERod, who has a fighting chance against the line-up but will likely only last 6 innings? Why not start Fister and say screw it? Now you go into tonight with an even more compromised pen and a guy starting whi may not even get you five innings? I'm not sure I understand how swapping them would have helped. Are you basically saying that with the bullpen depleted they should have just punted the game? They are punting every game against Cleveland when Fister is starting. Would you rather have Reed and Kimbrel available with a 1 run lead in the 7th? Or would you rather have them available for a Fister start? Keep in mind that it's far more likely that they have a 1 run lead in the 7th when ERod is pitching. You really just have to win the winnable games against such a good starting rotation. Next up, Carrasco and Kluber.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2017 8:04:32 GMT -5
Something something deck chairs Titanic?
This all seems like an argument for just not starting Fister. (I agree with that argument)
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2017 8:05:22 GMT -5
So if half the pen was either unavailable or "I'd like to stay away from them," then why start ERod, who has a fighting chance against the line-up but will likely only last 6 innings? Why not start Fister and say screw it? Now you go into tonight with an even more compromised pen and a guy starting whi may not even get you five innings? I'm not sure I understand how swapping them would have helped. Are you basically saying that with the bullpen depleted they should have just punted the game? Yup, especially with Fister lined up to start Monday. If you're managing for the series (or this long road trip), and your pen was already ragged, then this was the game where your odds were low to begin wirh. Why not recognize and embrace that, maximize success for the rest of the series ans start Fister, hoping for the best? Now you are facing an almost identical situation tonight (Reed but no Workman, Barnes, Hembree et all available) with your worst starter on the mound. Instead you could be going into tonight's game with ERod and rested Workman, Reed, Kimbrel.
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Post by jmei on Aug 22, 2017 8:22:55 GMT -5
They had to make their starting pitcher decisions before the back end of the bullpen had to pitch so many innings in the Yankees series. Rodriguez and Fister need to know in advance on which days they're pitching so they can plan their throw days, etc.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 22, 2017 8:27:50 GMT -5
They had to make their starting pitcher decisions before the back end of the bullpen had to pitch so many innings in the Yankees series. Rodriguez and Fister need to know in advance on which days they're pitching so they can plan their throw days, etc. Yeah... that's what I'm not getting here. Should Farrell have just shown up on Monday and swapped his rotation around for that night? That's not how this works. All else being equal though, if they can Rodriguez an extra day without altering the schedule for the top three then they should probably do so. Of course hindsight 20/20 and all that business.
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Post by jmei on Aug 22, 2017 8:30:42 GMT -5
I'm not too upset about Farrell's relief pitching usage last night. Using Barnes in the 8th was justifiable-- as has been mentioned, he's probably their third or fourth best reliever and the home/road split is in a small enough sample that it's not worth putting too much weight on. Pitcher fatigue is one of those factors where the manager has material information that we do not (he can actually speak to the players and get real time information about how they feel), and I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt there on Reed.
That said, the Hembree usage there was inexplicable, and if he was willing to go to Workman in a tie game in the ninth, he probably should have just gone to Workman up one in the eighth. So still far from ideal bullpen usage, but more run of the mill bad than inexcusable.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 22, 2017 8:51:57 GMT -5
our guys can handle good starting pitchers. Also, we have good starting pitching also. Look, we are 2-2 against the Tribe this year. We shouldn't be reacting like these are playoff games....they are not. Let's see what happens the rest of the series. In case the Farrell haters are wondering, we have a better record than the Indians, playing in a much more difficult division. Our 25 is ready for the challenge.
Good to see Barnes being honest about his performance. Honestly, we need more from him and Kelly, at a minimum. Otherwise, we aren't deep in the bullpen and DD should be checking the waiver wire.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2017 11:33:57 GMT -5
They had to make their starting pitcher decisions before the back end of the bullpen had to pitch so many innings in the Yankees series. Rodriguez and Fister need to know in advance on which days they're pitching so they can plan their throw days, etc. Even if we go there, seems like the operative thinking would be virtually any Sox-NYY series will tax the bullpen with high leverage innings so plan accordingly, and hey, if they didn't then you could put Fister on an even shorter leash for his game 1 start of Sox-Indians series. But, yeah, I still would've planned on punting and hoping for the best.
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Post by MLBDreams on Aug 22, 2017 11:34:30 GMT -5
John Farrell did it again with poor game management. They have to win yesterday game with Reed & Kimbrel closing out as final 6 outs. He has to know that Doug Fister won't guaranteed a win for tonight game and the team didn't have success in career against Corey Kluber for tomorrow game. The goal is to split the series 2-2 with possible steal third game to take the series 3-1. But, the team could end up as 1-3 series against Cleveland due to last night decision by JF. He just made lame excuse by state it as "not available" for using Reed. He threw just 12 pitches last Sun game.
I already sick of John giving the ball to Barnes & Hembree too many times like a drug addict. Have you seen Addison Reed's face? He's not too happy by the way he's being used by JF. Addison won't sign with the Red Sox in off season.
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Post by wildsox on Aug 22, 2017 12:21:14 GMT -5
Along with the bullpen decisions does anyone know why we keep giving regular playing time to a Brock Holt? His average is now below .200 and he isn't quite the same player from last year.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 12:25:24 GMT -5
September 1st can't come soon enough to solve the Brock Holt, Chris Young, Doug Fister and bullpen problems since there are a lot of pretty likely improvements to be made.
However I am not confident that JF will do the right thing and instead defer to his chosen veterans.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2017 12:46:48 GMT -5
September 1st can't come soon enough to solve the Brock Holt, Chris Young, Doug Fister and bullpen problems since there are a lot of pretty likely improvements to be made. However I am not confident that JF will do the right thing and instead defer to his chosen veterans. Gimme Lin! (And Brentz)
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 22, 2017 12:55:57 GMT -5
Barnes to the DL with a lower back strain. Velazquez up.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 12:56:25 GMT -5
September 1st can't come soon enough to solve the Brock Holt, Chris Young, Doug Fister and bullpen problems since there are a lot of pretty likely improvements to be made. However I am not confident that JF will do the right thing and instead defer to his chosen veterans. Gimme Lin! (And Brentz) Lin has been worth +1.1 fWAR more than Holt this year. Yeah, I know that's not exactly a fair comparison.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 22, 2017 12:57:02 GMT -5
Barnes to the DL with a lower back strain. Velazquez up. There's a phantom DL if I've ever seen one. Exactly 10 days until 9/1.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 22, 2017 13:02:53 GMT -5
Lin has been worth +1.1 fWAR more than Holt this year. Yeah, I know that's not exactly a fair comparison. And even if we agree Lin's offensive performance was an aberration at he and Holt are even in that regard, speed and superior glove should make that decision easy.
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