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Patriots 2017 season thread
wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Feb 7, 2018 9:45:19 GMT -5
I haven't seen it yet but I've heard it reported that Brady has tweeted in support of Butler. If it's accurate that would be a rebuke of Bill that you would never expect. As for the McDaniels flip I have to believe that Kraft must have assured him that BB will be in his final year.I don't think it's about money. If I was Kraft I would insist on draft approval given the way BB has handled the JimmyG transaction and the Butler benching. Both were unacceptable. I am not suggesting that BobK have anything to do with the pick. This team is in need of transitional moves and as owner I would like to know what the plans were. Kraft can not be happy with either the JimmyG deal or Butler affair. Lol, come on. I’ve been as critical as anyone about the Butler benching, but you don’t get rid of a coach based on one decision. That’s how bad organizations operate. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 7, 2018 10:16:28 GMT -5
I think what scared him off was the condition of Luck. Luck might not be ready next year or ever. No one knows. So, going into that kind of situation, where he would be guaranteed a losing season or two, gave him second thoughts. Plus, Kraft sweetened his pay check and assured him the long term plan of him being the next head coach of the Pats. He also mentioned something about moving his family, but I don't think that was high on his list. The bottom line is that someday he will take over a really great organization and continue to be able to win. Kraft sat him down, told him all of that, then added a million or two to his salary. How do you say no to that? Why did he hire 3 guys if he wasn't set on moving? And what happens to those guys that are now sitting ducks because McDaniels is an indecisive little boy. All of this tha you said would be very reasonable and more than acceptable if he hadn't committed to moving which led to 3 families moving to a different city having to deal with all kinds of uncertainty right now. Either the Colts owner tried to punk him and lowered his salary or McDaniels is an a**hole. No other way about it. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 7, 2018 10:31:19 GMT -5
It's really unprofessional to hire people and make them move only to back out of the deal at the last second. That's not how a real man/woman would do it. He didn't hire anyone as he wasn't the coach. Maybe he got them to sign, but they have contracts. Even if they get fired they get paid good money. Not sure why this is a huge issue for you. You act like they moved and now get nothing, which just isn't true. This whole thing was Kraft seeing the writing on the wall that 2018 very likely is Bills last year, he did everything to keep a coach in waiting. Frankly this happens all the time, no one should do anything till the coach is signed. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 7, 2018 10:51:28 GMT -5
He didn't hire anyone as he wasn't the coach. Maybe he got them to sign, but they have contracts. Even if they get fired they get paid good money. Not sure why this is a huge issue for you. You act like they moved and now get nothing, which just isn't true. This whole thing was Kraft seeing the writing on the wall that 2018 very likely is Bills last year, he did everything to keep a coach in waiting. Frankly this happens all the time, no one should do anything till the coach is signed. He got people to get out of their jobs to move to a different city to work with him, people that now are sitting ducks, and then he doesn't show. I know that verbal commitment isn't the same thing as signing a contract, but it's pretty much the same thing in my eyes. Thing is, why wait until now to do that? Why commit if he wasn't sure? Why bring people with him if he wasn't set on moving himself? That's at very least terrible leadership and like I've said, in my opinion no real man/woman should behave like that. But yeah, maybe that bothers me more than it should, if you're fine with a guy whose word isn't worth sh*t being the next coach of a team you follow who am I to dissuade you. Maybe I'm overreacting, I'm old school with this kind of thing. I just don't get how anyone could trust someone who pulls out a move like that and so much of coaching is about trust. Maybe history will prove me wrong, we'll see. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 7, 2018 10:58:59 GMT -5
We have no idea what McDaniels “got people to do” or not to do etc or the conversations he had with them leading up to those things so i would say it’s over-reactive or unfairly judge-mental.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 7, 2018 11:04:43 GMT -5
We have no idea what McDaniels “got people to do” or not to do etc or the conversations he had with them leading up to those things so i would say it’s over-reactive or unfairly judge-mental. We know that he convinced them to work on his team, he backed out of it and he hasn't even reached out to any of them. But yeah, maybe there's something we don't know. If there isn't, he's an a**hole. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2018 11:06:05 GMT -5
He didn't hire anyone as he wasn't the coach. Maybe he got them to sign, but they have contracts. Even if they get fired they get paid good money. Not sure why this is a huge issue for you. You act like they moved and now get nothing, which just isn't true. This whole thing was Kraft seeing the writing on the wall that 2018 very likely is Bills last year, he did everything to keep a coach in waiting. Frankly this happens all the time, no one should do anything till the coach is signed. He got people to get out of their jobs to move to a different city to work with him, people that now are sitting ducks, and then he doesn't show. I know that verbal commitment isn't the same thing as signing a contract, but it's pretty much the same thing in my eyes. Thing is, why wait until now to do that? Why commit if he wasn't sure? Why bring people with him if he wasn't set on moving himself? That's at very least terrible leadership and like I've said, in my opinion no real man/woman should behave like that. But yeah, maybe that bothers me more than it should, if you're fine with a guy whose word isn't worth sh*t being the next coach of a team you follow who am I to dissuade you. Maybe I'm overreacting, I'm old school with this kind of thing. I just don't get how anyone could trust someone who pulls out a move like that and so much of coaching is about trust. Maybe history will prove me wrong, we'll see. This could all be solved if the NFL put a moratorium on coaching changes between the end of the regular season and the Super Bowl. |
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2018 11:06:57 GMT -5
We have no idea what McDaniels “got people to do” or not to do etc or the conversations he had with them leading up to those things so i would say it’s over-reactive or unfairly judge-mental. We know that he convinced them to work on his team, he backed out of it and he hasn't even reached out to any of them. But yeah, maybe there's something we don't know. If there isn't, he's an a**hole. How much do you think he was working on his Indy coaching staff while preparing for the Super Bowl? I'm guessing not much. I'd bet that Kraft got him to stay by promising that he'd replace Bill and maybe giving him more money. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 7, 2018 11:10:20 GMT -5
He didn't hire anyone as he wasn't the coach. Maybe he got them to sign, but they have contracts. Even if they get fired they get paid good money. Not sure why this is a huge issue for you. You act like they moved and now get nothing, which just isn't true. This whole thing was Kraft seeing the writing on the wall that 2018 very likely is Bills last year, he did everything to keep a coach in waiting. Frankly this happens all the time, no one should do anything till the coach is signed. He got people to get out of their jobs to move to a different city to work with him, people that now are sitting ducks, and then he doesn't show. I know that verbal commitment isn't the same thing as signing a contract, but it's pretty much the same thing in my eyes. Thing is, why wait until now to do that? Why commit if he wasn't sure? Why bring people with him if he wasn't set on moving himself? That's at very least terrible leadership and like I've said, in my opinion no real man/woman should behave like that. But yeah, maybe that bothers me more than it should, if you're fine with a guy whose word isn't worth sh*t being the next coach of a team you follow who am I to dissuade you. Maybe I'm overreacting, I'm old school with this kind of thing. I just don't get how anyone could trust someone who pulls out a move like that and so much of coaching is about trust. Maybe history will prove me wrong, we'll see. Like a guy under contract quitting on his team to coach another, and the Pats working out a trade to get him? That worked out very well for us, got the best coach in history. If you look at the pros and college, coaches back out all the time. I don't have a problem with that, if he signed a contract and then backed out I would. Heck Mike Elko agreed to a new deal with Notre Dame, then took off for Texas A and M a few days later. Tennessee hired a coach and then didn't after a fan revolt, he even signed paperwork. It's basically just a normal thing now a days. Those guys that moved got new, most likely bigger deals that are fully guaranteed. How are they harmed? They get fired, they get a huge check. Then go get another job, heck they might make out better. Not like McDaniels couldn't have been fired and they might have to work for someone else. You sign a contract to the team, not the coach. Not sure why you have an issue with the coaches that got contracts. The one harmed the most is the Colts, who waited for a coach they thought they had. Thing is coaches back out all the time. The Colts new the risks of having to wait. They had to know Josh loved New England and turned down a ton of other jobs. It's like a team chasing Gruden for ten years or trying to get Saban to the Pro's. I'm really not that surprised Kraft stepped up to keep Josh, would have been shocking to lose both top assistants when we know Bill will not coach that much longer. He has said that many times, he won't be one of those coaches that is old as dirt. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 7, 2018 11:42:15 GMT -5
Like a guy under contract quitting on his team to coach another, and the Pats working out a trade to get him? That worked out very well for us, got the best coach in history. If you look at the pros and college, coaches back out all the time. I don't have a problem with that, if he signed a contract and then backed out I would. Heck Mike Elko agreed to a new deal with Notre Dame, then took off for Texas A and M a few days later. Tennessee hired a coach and then didn't after a fan revolt, he even signed paperwork. It's basically just a normal thing now a days. Those guys that moved got new, most likely bigger deals that are fully guaranteed. How are they harmed? They get fired, they get a huge check. Then go get another job, heck they might make out better. Not like McDaniels couldn't have been fired and they might have to work for someone else. You sign a contract to the team, not the coach. Not sure why you have an issue with the coaches that got contracts. The one harmed the most is the Colts, who waited for a coach they thought they had. Thing is coaches back out all the time. The Colts new the risks of having to wait. They had to know Josh loved New England and turned down a ton of other jobs. It's like a team chasing Gruden for ten years or trying to get Saban to the Pro's. I'm really not that surprised Kraft stepped up to keep Josh, would have been shocking to lose both top assistants when we know Bill will not coach that much longer. He has said that many times, he won't be one of those coaches that is old as dirt. Bill's situation was different and honestly Josh isn't nearly as talented to even be comparable. They won't be financially harmed, but it will be an awkward situation, how often do you see an OC or DC being in place prior to the HC? There's a reason for that. Unless the Colts owner can bring everyone along for a soul finding Ayahuasca trip, which is possible, they will be fired. And yeah, they will be compensated financially but it kind of delays their career. Like I said, it's about trust, and how can you trust someone whose word is worthless? I don't like it, I don't like it at all. But like I said, maybe we don't know everything. Maybe the Colts jumped the gun too early and they kind of pressured Josh too much. It is possible. Someone is an a**hole here, it's either someone in the Colts FO or McDaniels. Maybe both. This could all be solved if the NFL put a moratorium on coaching changes between the end of the regular season and the Super Bowl. I agree 100% with this, it's honestly bullsh*t how often that happens in the NFL. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 7, 2018 12:24:55 GMT -5
Like a guy under contract quitting on his team to coach another, and the Pats working out a trade to get him? That worked out very well for us, got the best coach in history. If you look at the pros and college, coaches back out all the time. I don't have a problem with that, if he signed a contract and then backed out I would. Heck Mike Elko agreed to a new deal with Notre Dame, then took off for Texas A and M a few days later. Tennessee hired a coach and then didn't after a fan revolt, he even signed paperwork. It's basically just a normal thing now a days. Those guys that moved got new, most likely bigger deals that are fully guaranteed. How are they harmed? They get fired, they get a huge check. Then go get another job, heck they might make out better. Not like McDaniels couldn't have been fired and they might have to work for someone else. You sign a contract to the team, not the coach. Not sure why you have an issue with the coaches that got contracts. The one harmed the most is the Colts, who waited for a coach they thought they had. Thing is coaches back out all the time. The Colts new the risks of having to wait. They had to know Josh loved New England and turned down a ton of other jobs. It's like a team chasing Gruden for ten years or trying to get Saban to the Pro's. I'm really not that surprised Kraft stepped up to keep Josh, would have been shocking to lose both top assistants when we know Bill will not coach that much longer. He has said that many times, he won't be one of those coaches that is old as dirt. Bill's situation was different and honestly Josh isn't nearly as talented to even be comparable. They won't be financially harmed, but it will be an awkward situation, how often do you see an OC or DC being in place prior to the HC? There's a reason for that. Unless the Colts owner can bring everyone along for a soul finding Ayahuasca trip, which is possible, they will be fired. And yeah, they will be compensated financially but it kind of delays their career. Like I said, it's about trust, and how can you trust someone whose word is worthless? I don't like it, I don't like it at all. But like I said, maybe we don't know everything. Maybe the Colts jumped the gun too early and they kind of pressured Josh too much. It is possible. Someone is an a**hole here, it's either someone in the Colts FO or McDaniels. Maybe both. This could all be solved if the NFL put a moratorium on coaching changes between the end of the regular season and the Super Bowl. I agree 100% with this, it's honestly bullsh*t how often that happens in the NFL. McDaniels actually is just like Bill. It's scary how similar they are. Both were great coordinators, flamed out first time head coaches. Then went back to being top notched coordinators. Then both turned down a chance to coach another team for New England. You seem to be letting the last 17 years cloud your judgement about Bill. He wasn't a great HC till he got the Job in New England. Frankly I can't think of a better head coach in waiting. Yes the Colts jumped the gun hiring guys before they even signed the coach. There is a reason you never see that happen, most teams aren't that stupid. Like I said before since 2012 Josh has turned down a ton of jobs because he didn't want to leave New England. Maybe I'm wrong, but haven't there been reports he was leaving before? If I was the Colts I wouldn't have hired anyone till he signed and I would have made him a massive offer if you really wanted him. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 7, 2018 14:31:18 GMT -5
Yes the Colts jumped the gun hiring guys before they even signed the coach. There is a reason you never see that happen, most teams aren't that stupid. Like I said before since 2012 Josh has turned down a ton of jobs because he didn't want to leave New England. Maybe I'm wrong, but haven't there been reports he was leaving before? If I was the Colts I wouldn't have hired anyone till he signed and I would have made him a massive offer if you really wanted him. I agree with you here, it was massively poorly handled by the Colts as well and that's not surprising. It doesn't make me hate what McDaniels did any less, but yeah he's not the sole "villain" at all. |
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Post by costpet on Feb 8, 2018 4:48:42 GMT -5
So now the Colts hate the Pats again? Big deal. Kraft stepped in to help his club as any smart owner would. He kept him for the short term and the long term. A little talk, a little money, and he gets to keep his man. Everyone is mad at Josh. I'm not. I'm glad he's staying.
Someone said he'd never get an offer again. So? He's staying with the Pats. I'm more concerned about Gronk retiring before next season. I'd love to see him and Edelman together for a whole season. I think everyone should calm down. They'll be in the playoffs again next year and we'll see what happens from there. All the rest is just noise.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 8, 2018 7:17:29 GMT -5
I don’t agree with the narrative that Bill flamed out in Cleveland. He had a great team in 1994 and in 1995 in the middle of the year the owner submarined the team and it collapsed. Point is it wasn’t this unmitigated disaster that some people make it out to be.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2018 10:13:46 GMT -5
Bill was the Cleveland coach for 5 years, had one winning season and a record of 36-42. He was then fired. Was it a disaster? Not really, but he wasn't seen as a great coach either. He was looked at as a great coordinator that wasn't a great coach. As he said, those years taught him a lot, he learned from his mistakes.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 8, 2018 10:21:57 GMT -5
Bill was the Cleveland coach for 5 years, had one winning season and a record of 36-42. He was then fired. Was it a disaster? Not really, but he wasn't seen as a great coach either. He was looked at as a great coordinator that wasn't a great coach. As he said, those years taught him a lot, he learned from his mistakes. Cleveland fans would probably consider a record like that similar to winning Super Bowls these days. |
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Post by kingofthetrill on Feb 8, 2018 15:59:22 GMT -5
This could all be solved if the NFL put a moratorium on coaching changes between the end of the regular season and the Super Bowl. I strongly agree with this. I won't accuse anyone of anything, but it does bother me that McDaniels and Patricia had other jobs in place while they were supposed to be preparing New England to win the Super Bowl. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 8, 2018 18:51:38 GMT -5
I so far have read nothing that would've justified benching him for the game. On the rules violations, they all seem like one quarter or one half things. And if he sucked at practice, well guess what... the guys playing ahead of him sucked IN THE GAME, so maybe going to the next option was warranted? What a huge f-up. I was going to avoid this conversation and i just chose this post to respond to just cause. I could have chosen any number of them. I don’t think Rowe was all that bad in the SB. The first TD catch he “gave up” was tight coverage and just a great throw and catch. Sometimes it’s just great offense. I can understand questioning why he wasn’t playing over Bademosi at times etc, but let’s not forget that Malcolm Butler was bad most of the year and absolutely SUCKED against Jacksonville and Tennessee. I think he should have played too but he wasn’t good for a while. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 8, 2018 18:57:40 GMT -5
Bill was the Cleveland coach for 5 years, had one winning season and a record of 36-42. He was then fired. Was it a disaster? Not really, but he wasn't seen as a great coach either. He was looked at as a great coordinator that wasn't a great coach. As he said, those years taught him a lot, he learned from his mistakes. That’s fair but he took over a disaster of a team and the first 3 years he rebuilt it. Instilled a culture that got them to 11-5 and a playoff win in year 4; was a SB favorite going into year 5 when the owner submarined the franchise. Yes it’s looked back on as a failure but when actually analyzed that’s highly questionable. No doubt he learned and is better second time around. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2018 19:07:23 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2018 19:13:33 GMT -5
Bill was the Cleveland coach for 5 years, had one winning season and a record of 36-42. He was then fired. Was it a disaster? Not really, but he wasn't seen as a great coach either. He was looked at as a great coordinator that wasn't a great coach. As he said, those years taught him a lot, he learned from his mistakes. That’s fair but he took over a disaster of a team and the first 3 years he rebuilt it. Instilled a culture that got them to 11-5 and a playoff win in year 4; was a SB favorite going into year 5 when the owner submarined the franchise. Yes it’s looked back on as a failure but when actually analyzed that’s highly questionable. No doubt he learned and is better second time around. What did the owner do? I was like 12 at the time, I remember Bill in Cleveland, but not all the details. Not sure about your point, I said he flammed out and wasn't seen as a great coach till New England, which is true. If he was seen as a great head coach another team would have hired him right away. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2018 19:16:01 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 8, 2018 19:26:43 GMT -5
That’s fair but he took over a disaster of a team and the first 3 years he rebuilt it. Instilled a culture that got them to 11-5 and a playoff win in year 4; was a SB favorite going into year 5 when the owner submarined the franchise. Yes it’s looked back on as a failure but when actually analyzed that’s highly questionable. No doubt he learned and is better second time around. What did the owner do? I was like 12 at the time, I remember Bill in Cleveland, but not all the details. Not sure about your point, I said he flammed out and wasn't seen as a great coach till New England, which is true. If he was seen as a great head coach another team would have hired him right away. I wasn’t saying you’re wrong but the narrative isn’t quite as simple or accurate as it gets portrayed. He was a sought after coach after Cleveland but Bill was Smart he wasn’t just out for any job. He would have taken the NE job in 97 if Kraft was ready to give it to him. Anyways, the Cleveland owner announced midway thru the 95 season he was moving the team out of Cleveland to Baltimore. It was a shocking announcement met with massive backlash in Cleveland. The team just fell apart and quit (understandably) and the backlash was so severe the team was moved under the cover of darkness, literally. They basically snuck all their stuff out in the middle of the night and drove to Baltimore. The Browns are basically an expansion franchise that started in 1999 and the Ravens are the old Browns. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2018 19:42:07 GMT -5
I remember that, the fans went Nutz. Thought you were talking about the owner and Bill.
Browns started 3-1, but were at 4-5 when it was announced. End up at 5-11.
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Post by Coreno on Feb 8, 2018 23:37:51 GMT -5
Relevant recommendation: everyone should watch the NFL Films doc, "A Football Life: 1995 Cleveland Browns"
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