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2018 Red Sox roster building
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 2, 2018 21:37:49 GMT -5
Why do fans seem more comfortable trading Eduardo Rodriguez or 2 years of Bogaerts over Groome?
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Post by jiant2520 on Jan 2, 2018 21:41:55 GMT -5
Should the RS re-sign Addison Reed? I don't want this to become a debate about salary. Would rather focus on whether a full year of Reed makes the 2018 RS a better team based on his skill set and experience. Reed is a good pitcher and adding him makes the Sox better for sure, not sure how much better though, as far as wins go. I will not debate money per your request, but if signing Reed prohibits Boston from signing a hitter, IMO, the Sox will be worse off than they'd be getting said hitter. I'd love to bring him back and if they can add JD and Reed, I'd take it, but salary would inevitably come into play.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 2, 2018 21:54:26 GMT -5
Should the RS re-sign Addison Reed? I don't want this to become a debate about salary. Would rather focus on whether a full year of Reed makes the 2018 RS a better team based on his skill set and experience. Yes, in a vacuum, where cost is no object, a full season of Reed makes the Sox bullpen better. But if you ask Addison Reed, he'd probably tell you he'd prefer to close and make closer money and at the end of the day Reed will make the decision that is best for him, not the Red Sox. And likewise I won't delve into the impact of salary as the last poster captured the point well. Obviously if budget constraints don't matter, then yes getting the best players is the best way to improve your team, and Reed is as good as just about any other reliever left on the market - and if money was no object to the player or team I'd have preferred Wade Davis to set up. Not exactly rocket science there, though.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2018 21:57:23 GMT -5
Heard Bowden talk on the radio a hour ago. His sources said the Sox offer was Jason Groome + Position player (Xander or JBJ) for Machado. Remember Jim Bowden's sources = Good. Jim Bowden speculation = Bad. Still no deal, so the Orioles haven't taken it yet, but that's what they reportedly offered. Bowden didn't like talking about it because he doesn't like giving away his sources. Edit- The offer is/was real. Have no idea where this offer is as it stands today, but this is why it was talked about ad nauseam. His source said Groome plus either Bogaerts or Bradley? Or is it Groome and a position player who he speculates is Bogaerts or Bradley? Reports keep saying nothing is close but you then hear this. Also the Cubs offering Russell plus two other players. Yet nothing is close? Those are great starting points for a deal, way better than I would have guessed. Either Baltimore is stupid or the reports aren't totally correct.
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jan 2, 2018 22:11:48 GMT -5
Heard Bowden talk on the radio a hour ago. His sources said the Sox offer was Jason Groome + Position player (Xander or JBJ) for Machado. Remember Jim Bowden's sources = Good. Jim Bowden speculation = Bad. Still no deal, so the Orioles haven't taken it yet, but that's what they reportedly offered. Bowden didn't like talking about it because he doesn't like giving away his sources. Yeesh. What's the philosophy? Draft Groome so now Espinoza can be dealt? Draft Houck so now Groome can be dealt? Hard to develop top notch starting pitching that way. If I were the Orioles I'd jump on Xander and Groome for 1 year of Machado in a heartbeat. But the Orioles do things.....very differently. The O's could also turnaround and flip Xander or JBJ to add more prospects in addition to Groome and it would be a nice package for one year of Machado. However, given that it's the O's, they would probably find something wrong with Groome or Xander's physical. It makes for good cold stove talk but I don't see the Red Sox ending up with Machado. Too many moving parts, one-year deal and Angelos having to approve it in the end. It wouldn't surprise me to see them keep him and trade him at the All-Star break.
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Post by p23w on Jan 2, 2018 22:45:48 GMT -5
I believe having Addison Reed on the 2018 RS team accomplishes two things (possibly three). First it makes for a better bullpen, not much argument on this issue. Secondly it provides an insurance policy for Kimbrel. IMO there are precious few bullpens that can substitute a former 40 save relief pitcher with play off experience should their closer be unavailable. How much that insurance policy is worth is up to debate. Given the current available options on the 2018 roster I'm inclined to bite the bullet for this particular insurance policy. I'll include my third contingency that is soley based on personal observation. Reed reminds me of Mike Timlin. Not so much with his stuff (IMO Reed's stuff is slightly better), but in his demeanor and in his ability to be abused. I wouldn't go so far as to say Reed (or Timlin) is "rubber armed", but that, given their demeanors, they can still get the job done under duress. Obviously this attribute has limitations (see Robert's use of Jansen and Hinch's use of Giles). This ability, or skill is not common. Whether it be the decline in "stuff" as exhibited by a taxed Kelly or a loss of "demeanor" as seen by an extended Hembree or Barnes, my perception of Reed's ability to get the job done sans his stuff was unique among the cast of characters in the 2017 RS bullpen. Whilst I think this aptitude is not necessary to explore during the regular season (except Yankee games). I do think it comes into play during the post season. This applies in particular to the last two playoff appearances by this team.
Buy a bat. Fine by me. Somehow I think building a beast with pitching (and defense) will take this team further into the post season.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 2, 2018 23:19:52 GMT -5
Since R. Castillo doesn't have a clear path to play with the Red Sox, it seems like trading him would be a good move considering he's still young, and definitely a capable outfielder, and pretty decent with hitting. When he played with the Sox, his numbers were decent, imo. Does he seem like someone who could be moved this year to help the roster for 2018? It would also relieve the Sox of a little bit of a financial headache. It just seems to me like the Sox have a few players who should be given a chance next year to show whether or not they are deserving of being full-time regulars at the Major League level. It doesn't seem fair to me to keep them around as just insurance policies, in case the young starters ahead of them at the big league level get injured, or suddenly stop producing. It's just my opinion of course, as I have no clue how comfortable players like Castillo, Swihart, Travis, and B. Johnson are with being a back-up for the Sox, or playing another season in the minors. Of all those players, it seems like the Sox would gain the most from having Swihart play for Pawtucket, and hopefully regain his elite prospect status.
Just seems like the 2018 Sox are pushing the limit on team salary, and yet could use some strengthening in a couple of areas. So why not deal a player or two from a position of strength already, to gain more flexibility in other areas, including rebuilding the farm system.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 2, 2018 23:28:59 GMT -5
Dealing for Machado, without assurance that he'll re-sign, seems like a desperate move, just to hopefully improve the roster next year only. Seemed like DD already mortgaged the future for a two - four year window to win it all, after all the moves he made a couple of years ago. When is enough, enough? Essentially going 'all-in' for 2018, with a Machado type of move, is an extremely reckless bet for DD at this point. Maybe when the Sox had a really strong farm system, but if the Machado move didn't work out, then the team will be really bereft at the minor league level, in regards to future Sox teams. At some point, it has to be considered reckless to keep giving the future away, for a chance at immediate gratification.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 2, 2018 23:57:16 GMT -5
Heard Bowden talk on the radio a hour ago. His sources said the Sox offer was Jason Groome + Position player (Xander or JBJ) for Machado. Remember Jim Bowden's sources = Good. Jim Bowden speculation = Bad. Still no deal, so the Orioles haven't taken it yet, but that's what they reportedly offered. Bowden didn't like talking about it because he doesn't like giving away his sources. Edit- The offer is/was real. Have no idea where this offer is as it stands today, but this is why it was talked about ad nauseam. His source said Groome plus either Bogaerts or Bradley? Or is it Groome and a position player who he speculates is Bogaerts or Bradley? Reports keep saying nothing is close but you then hear this. Also the Cubs offering Russell plus two other players. Yet nothing is close? Those are great starting points for a deal, way better than I would have guessed. Either Baltimore is stupid or the reports aren't totally correct. The Position player was speculation on my part. I don't know who else it could be. Those are the only 2 players that it could of been imo.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 2, 2018 23:57:39 GMT -5
Hopefully JDM is signed in the next few days, cause the Machado rumors are worrisome to me. Interestingly enough, if the Sox did sign JDM, it would kind of make more sense to deal someone like Chavis, who's scouting report says his defensive skills at 3b lag behind Devers', and so Chavis' best hope for making the big-league roster with the Sox, would be if he could become proficient at 1b. Even if he is deemed as being blocked, the two main areas of weakness for the Sox, imo., is a clean-up hitter, and the farm system. If the Sox signed JDM, then it would make no sense to deal him, or Groome, when the farm system is so barren. I just hope that neither he, nor Groome, is traded for 2018 help in the form of Machado, especially as Machado can be signed as a free agent next year.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Jan 3, 2018 0:13:04 GMT -5
Heard Bowden talk on the radio a hour ago. His sources said the Sox offer was Jason Groome + Position player (Xander or JBJ) for Machado. Remember Jim Bowden's sources = Good. Jim Bowden speculation = Bad. Still no deal, so the Orioles haven't taken it yet, but that's what they reportedly offered. Bowden didn't like talking about it because he doesn't like giving away his sources. Yeesh. What's the philosophy? Draft Groome so now Espinoza can be dealt? Draft Houck so now Groome can be dealt? Hard to develop top notch starting pitching that way. If I were the Orioles I'd jump on Xander and Groome for 1 year of Machado in a heartbeat. But the Orioles do things.....very differently. I have to believe this is a rumor that we're using to get boras to blink. If we really offered groome + for manny, the Os should have jumped at it. The fact they haven't accepted leads me to believe it's bs.... I hope.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 3, 2018 0:25:34 GMT -5
I believe the real lip service here is the Sox attempts in general to develop starting pitching in the minors for Boston. It's been that way for several years now. Groome as part of a package would be no shocker.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jan 3, 2018 0:36:26 GMT -5
Dealing for Machado, without assurance that he'll re-sign, seems like a desperate move, just to hopefully improve the roster next year only. Seemed like DD already mortgaged the future for a two - four year window to win it all, after all the moves he made a couple of years ago. When is enough, enough? Essentially going 'all-in' for 2018, with a Machado type of move, is an extremely reckless bet for DD at this point. Maybe when the Sox had a really strong farm system, but if the Machado move didn't work out, then the team will be really bereft at the minor league level, in regards to future Sox teams. At some point, it has to be considered reckless to keep giving the future away, for a chance at immediate gratification. I’d definitely do this deal. If Machado walks you get the draft pick back. And next year try and sign either Machado or Harper. I’m not sold on JDM. Seems very risky to go 5-6 years on a guy who is already a DH. And I may be in minority but I’d rather send Boggy than JBJ.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 3, 2018 0:40:47 GMT -5
Since R. Castillo doesn't have a clear path to play with the Red Sox, it seems like trading him would be a good move considering he's still young, and definitely a capable outfielder, and pretty decent with hitting. When he played with the Sox, his numbers were decent, imo. Does he seem like someone who could be moved this year to help the roster for 2018? It would also relieve the Sox of a little bit of a financial headache. It just seems to me like the Sox have a few players who should be given a chance next year to show whether or not they are deserving of being full-time regulars at the Major League level. It doesn't seem fair to me to keep them around as just insurance policies, in case the young starters ahead of them at the big league level get injured, or suddenly stop producing. It's just my opinion of course, as I have no clue how comfortable players like Castillo, Swihart, Travis, and B. Johnson are with being a back-up for the Sox, or playing another season in the minors. Of all those players, it seems like the Sox would gain the most from having Swihart play for Pawtucket, and hopefully regain his elite prospect status. Just seems like the 2018 Sox are pushing the limit on team salary, and yet could use some strengthening in a couple of areas. So why not deal a player or two from a position of strength already, to gain more flexibility in other areas, including rebuilding the farm system. Unfortunately trading Rusney is not an option at the moment as it would require the Red Sox to add his salary to the luxury tax allocation and with a JDM signing they would be well over the 237mil threshold. Rusney isn't worth anywhere close to his contract on the open market, so the Red Sox would have to eat most of it if they wanted to trade him, and that amount would also count toward the luxury tax numbers. I think the only option to get Rusney into the big leagues is to trade JBJ AND cut costs elsewhere - assuming they still want JDM. Otherwise they can wait until mid year, call him up for a couple of weeks and if he hits well try and trade him without eating salary. It's a sad list of options unfortunately.
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Post by dirtdog on Jan 3, 2018 0:41:16 GMT -5
Not that I want him gone but Groome is far from a sure thing IMO.
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Post by blizzards39 on Jan 3, 2018 0:44:52 GMT -5
Since R. Castillo doesn't have a clear path to play with the Red Sox, it seems like trading him would be a good move considering he's still young, and definitely a capable outfielder, and pretty decent with hitting. When he played with the Sox, his numbers were decent, imo. Does he seem like someone who could be moved this year to help the roster for 2018? It would also relieve the Sox of a little bit of a financial headache. It just seems to me like the Sox have a few players who should be given a chance next year to show whether or not they are deserving of being full-time regulars at the Major League level. It doesn't seem fair to me to keep them around as just insurance policies, in case the young starters ahead of them at the big league level get injured, or suddenly stop producing. It's just my opinion of course, as I have no clue how comfortable players like Castillo, Swihart, Travis, and B. Johnson are with being a back-up for the Sox, or playing another season in the minors. Of all those players, it seems like the Sox would gain the most from having Swihart play for Pawtucket, and hopefully regain his elite prospect status. Just seems like the 2018 Sox are pushing the limit on team salary, and yet could use some strengthening in a couple of areas. So why not deal a player or two from a position of strength already, to gain more flexibility in other areas, including rebuilding the farm system. Unfortunately trading Rusney is not an option at the moment as it would require the Red Sox to add his salary to the luxury tax allocation and with a JDM signing they would be well over the 237mil threshold. Rusney isn't worth anywhere close to his contract on the open market, so the Red Sox would have to eat most of it if they wanted to trade him, and that amount would also count toward the luxury tax numbers. I think the only option to get Rusney into the big leagues is to trade JBJ AND cut costs elsewhere - assuming they still want JDM. Otherwise they can wait until mid year, call him up for a couple of weeks and if he hits well try and trade him without eating salary. It's a sad list of options unfortunately. Or Castillo kills the ball for 2 months in Pawtucket and builds his value back. Unlikely.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 3, 2018 1:49:30 GMT -5
His source said Groome plus either Bogaerts or Bradley? Or is it Groome and a position player who he speculates is Bogaerts or Bradley? Reports keep saying nothing is close but you then hear this. Also the Cubs offering Russell plus two other players. Yet nothing is close? Those are great starting points for a deal, way better than I would have guessed. Either Baltimore is stupid or the reports aren't totally correct. The Position player was speculation on my part. I don't know who else it could be. Those are the only 2 players that it could of been imo. The fact that nothing happened after they made the offer leads me to believe it wasn't either. I take it they said it wasn't a prospect positional player? So I would guess more like Swihart, Marrero, or someone like Lin. Guys that are young controllable cheap players. Yet could start for that team or at worst increase there depth. Maybe even Travis. They have proven at least something in the majors. At the same time Baltimore wouldn't jump at an offer like that. That fangraph article is how teams think more or less. I can certainly see DD overpaying in risky prospects, but I can't see him overlooking the value of Bogaerts and Bradley. At the same time how does Baltimore not at least engage in serious talks if offered Groome and Bogaerts/Bradley? That is a monster return for 1 year of Machado. Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I don't see how the value comes anywhere close to a Chris Sale type trade level. That was 3 years of one of the best pitchers in Baseball at a bargin basement price. Great player, but he's a rental that is most likely going to cost mega bucks to resign. He's also going to make like 20 million, he's not dirt cheap like Sale. I think too many people are go crazy over the player and overlooking value. Great player, but it's only one year. That's not a dig at you either, just talking in a general sense.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 3, 2018 2:23:00 GMT -5
The Position player was speculation on my part. I don't know who else it could be. Those are the only 2 players that it could of been imo. The fact that nothing happened after they made the offer leads me to believe it wasn't either. I take it they said it wasn't a prospect positional player? Nope, he heard it was a player from off the roster. Presumably Xander or JBJ (again starting caliber player) "Very aggressive offer" he termed it. People might not believe me or these sources from Bowden, but that would be a mistake imo. forum.soxprospects.com/thread/4239/2018-red-sox-roster-building?page=35Scroll 5-7 posts down where I posted about what Bowden was hearing through his sources. He was one of the first to hear about Stanton to the Yankees, he was dead on about Ozuna getting definitely traded when the Stanton deal was done, he has been right about San Diego's aggressiveness on Hosmer. Now his speculation is wrong A LOT (as it was in the post I made about him), but what he hears is usually gold, because he has a lot of connections in the front offices. My guess is that the Orioles want the best package available and are leaking all these packages by the Cubs and Sox to try and get the best offer for Machado. I'm sure they'll make a decision once final offers are in. I'm also guessing that they want more clubs to join in on the bidding action. They have to trade him. No way around that, whether it's now or at the trade deadline. They may just put off a deal until July if they don't make a final decision this winter.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 3, 2018 2:28:39 GMT -5
The fact that nothing happened after they made the offer leads me to believe it wasn't either. I take it they said it wasn't a prospect positional player? Nope, he heard it was a player from off the roster. Presumably Xander or JBJ (again starting caliber player). "Very aggressive offer" he termed it. People might not believe me or these sources from Bowden, but that would be a mistake imo. forum.soxprospects.com/thread/4239/2018-red-sox-roster-building?page=35Scroll 5-7 posts down where I posted about what Bowden was hearing through his sources. He was one of the first to hear about the Yankees speculation on Stanton, he was dead on about Ozuna getting definitely traded when the Stanton deal was done, he has been right about San Diego's aggressiveness on Hosmer. Now his speculation is wrong A LOT (as it was in the post I made about him), but what he hears is usually gold, because he has a lot of connections in the front offices. My guess is that the Orioles want the best package available and are leaking all these packages by the Cubs and Sox to try and get the best offer for Machado. I'm sure they'll make a decision once final offers are in. I'm also guessing that they want more clubs to join in on the bidding action. They have to trade him. No way around that, whether it's now or at the trade deadline. They may just put off a deal until July if they don't make a final decision this winter.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 3, 2018 2:34:58 GMT -5
I think people also making the mistake of thinking J.D. Martinez and Machado are connected. They could both be targeted by the Sox right now in hopes of landing one or both of them.
I wouldn't put that past Dombrowski. Dombrowski maximizes, he doesn't try and find value in trades.
Trade JBJ to get Machado, sign J.D. Martinez to play LF.
Or
Trade Xander to get Machado, sign J.D. Martinez to play DH and outfield.
Both scenarios are plausible if the Sox wanted to push the 237 tax limit for a world series run this year.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 3, 2018 3:08:45 GMT -5
I don't doubt Bowden sources, just there motives. I 100% buy DD offered Groome and a positional player. Just like when he said Stanton to Yankees was more smoke than fire. He nailed that they were in play, just not there true interest level. What I find suspect is naming Groome, but then the other piece is just a positional player. Same as the Cubs offering Russell and two other players. Yet not naming the two other pieces, just the one big piece in Russell. That leads me to think Groome is the big piece, where as if Bogaerts and/or Bradley were in the trade they would be the big piece. I think your 100% right about Baltimore leaking these offers to drum up interest. To get teams to up the ante. So why didn't they say Bogaerts and Groome or Bradley and Groome ? Instead just Groome and a positional player that the source thinks is a very a aggressive offer.
So for me I now 100% believe DD has real interest in Machado. He's willing to trade Groome and more. That's a legit offer. Not buying the rest yet. This reminds me of the Sale trade rumors. They were 100% right about the interest, yet the offers were crazy Moncada, Kopech, ERod, Bradley and another prospect. The actual trade while painful seemed like a great deal because it was like half the cost of the rumors.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 3, 2018 4:18:31 GMT -5
After rehearing what Bowden and his partner Jim were talking about, they mentioned a player off the roster plus Groome. Maybe that could of included pitchers too. Porcello maybe? m.facebook.com/gale.fredricksonAnyways I posted the whole conversation on a fake account on Facebook. They talk about the Manny Machado rumors by the end at 7 minutes 30 seconds in. They talked about the Sox for the most part in this segment if people want to listen. Sorry about the poor sound quality.
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Post by mredsox89 on Jan 3, 2018 9:41:38 GMT -5
Pretty glad the Sox don't appear to be involved in the Hosmer sweepstakes given his two reported offers. 7 years from both SD and KC, 140M/147M respectively
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Post by marsha on Jan 3, 2018 10:57:45 GMT -5
I would believe the signing of Moreland was a strong indication that the front office has eliminated first baseman signing so Hosmer doesn't seem to be on the radar. My main concerns are the overloaded portside rotation and the signing of the 3 B's (Benintendi is a baby B and not included in original). I don't feel there is any way to resign all three especially with Boras being the agent for both Bogaerts and Bradley. As for the portside heaviness, I was hoping we could have made a deal with one or more of the Bs along with a lefty to acquire a top end righty. The Yankees are going to match up rather well with our rotation, although Rodriguez has shown a high degree of success against them.
I just feel that if we have only Porcello and Wright, if Wright makes the rotation, the team is vulnerable to strong right handed lineups. Of course having Rodriguez on the DL would make such a trade more difficult.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 3, 2018 11:43:43 GMT -5
Not that I want him gone but Groome is far from a sure thing IMO. Agreed. No 19 year old A ball pitcher is a sure thing. Evah.
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