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2017-18 Celtics Season Thread
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 10:59:37 GMT -5
So that was an impressive win, but just remember how close even a blow out in basketball can be. Every time the Sixers cut the lead to single digits the Celtics literally drilled a 3 pointer. The Celtics shot an insanely high percentage from deep while the Sixers shot an incredibly low percentage. Even those out and it’s a different game. Yes, the Celtics were home and have home court advantage. Yes, Brown didn’t play. Yes, the Celtics defense had something to do with the Sixers shooting. But the Sixers are still a much more talented team than this version of the Celtics. The Celtics have to win game 2 at home or they are screwed and remember that in the playoffs you really haven’t done anything until you win a road game. Last nights victory was fun and incredible for many reasons but unless you expected the C’s to get swept it shouldn’t change the outlook for the series to be honest. Our big three from last night won't do that every night. At the same time everyone on the Sixers won't shoot above 37.5 % from deep like they did against the Heat either. They also don't play much D, given there coach I was kinda surprised. We had a ton of wide open threes. We'll need Brown to come back to win the series most likely, but reports were good and that should happen. I also think game two is huge, the Sixers overall haven't won much. Most of that team outside of Reddick is doing it for the first time. I really wonder if they get down 0-2 if they have the same fight the Bucks did. We can beat the Sixers, heck I think we stand a good chance of beating every team outside Houston and Golden State. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 11:11:13 GMT -5
I hate to say it and start a argument, but trading Rozier for a top 10 pick could be a good high value move for the Celtics if it's possible and gives you more years of control. You could always wait until the year after, but his value won't be any higher because he's getting starting minutes and showing what he can do in them this season and postseason. I'd shop Rozier around draft time if the draft is good this year. Plus, Rozier should get a starting job somewhere and make that money. It'd be good for his career and the league. If the Celtics can't find that this year in the draft, then keep him. Top 5 pick frankly if you really wanted to trade him. You want crazy, trade Irving. Rozier most likely won't become the offensive player Irving is, but Rozier runs the team better in my opinion and will be a better two way player. All joking a side you don't trade him, he's just scratching the surface of his potential. This isn't a fluke, this is a coming of age. Don't be the Thunder trading Harden because they didn't like the fit and didn't want to pay him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 11:24:06 GMT -5
First off, I don’t think Rozier is worth a top 10 pick in general. However, if he were the only team, in the top 10, I can see it making sense for is the Cavs if LeBron commits to them. He’s 2 years out from URFA and a year from RFA. A rebuilding team shouldn’t be giving him a huge contract if they want to build a successful team. He’s not a top 3 guy on a good team. At least not yet and in the NBA how and when you acquire players and pay them is just as tricky as getting them. He’s a perfect 6th man type for a great team like a Lou Williams type who can do more on the defense and rebounding side. It will be interesting to see where he fits contract wise. Let’s just hope ownership pays up for this group. You still don't see all-star upside in Rozier? The things he can do are crazy. My wife was like OMG he looks like a bigger Thomas, he's just so athletic and does all those crazy things Thomas did. Go look at the Harden trade, they got Martin, a recent lottery pick Lamb, another lottery pick that became Stevens and another first round pick. I know it seems crazy because he's Harden, but go look at his stats before the trade. The Rockets were betting on upside, Harden was very good on the Thunder, but he wasn't close to current Harden. Rozier has crazy upside. He is just like Harden in his third year, but in a way he's already carrying this team. Rozier has crazy high value right now. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 1, 2018 11:48:22 GMT -5
Rozier has certainly become a much bigger asset and that is a very good thing!! All of a sudden a guy who wasn't good enough to be a throw in to complete a deal has become the possible headliner of a deal.
It has always been my position that the C's need an impactful 5. Not only for the added rim protection but to allow Al to play PF which is his best position. With the emergence of Rozier you now have 4 starter quality guards which is great but probably not affordable long term. The C's will need to move one of Smart or Rozier. Off seasons with the Celtics should continue to be interesting with all the assets Danny has at his disposal.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 12:23:19 GMT -5
First off, I don’t think Rozier is worth a top 10 pick in general. However, if he were the only team, in the top 10, I can see it making sense for is the Cavs if LeBron commits to them. He’s 2 years out from URFA and a year from RFA. A rebuilding team shouldn’t be giving him a huge contract if they want to build a successful team. He’s not a top 3 guy on a good team. At least not yet and in the NBA how and when you acquire players and pay them is just as tricky as getting them. He’s a perfect 6th man type for a great team like a Lou Williams type who can do more on the defense and rebounding side. It will be interesting to see where he fits contract wise. Let’s just hope ownership pays up for this group. You still don't see all-star upside in Rozier? The things he can do are crazy. My wife was like OMG he looks like a bigger Thomas, he's just so athletic and does all those crazy things Thomas did. Go look at the Harden trade, they got Martin, a recent lottery pick Lamb, another lottery pick that became Stevens and another first round pick. I know it seems crazy because he's Harden, but go look at his stats before the trade. The Rockets were betting on upside, Harden was very good on the Thunder, but he wasn't close to current Harden. Rozier has crazy upside. He is just like Harden in his third year, but in a way he's already carrying this team. Rozier has crazy high value right now. Yea, I see the upside. Now can we stop comparing the two? Harden was a much better player at the time he was traded and he had a much better pedigree for a reason. He’s also now become one of the best offensive players in the history of the NBA. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 12:24:09 GMT -5
Rozier has certainly become a much bigger asset and that is a very good thing!! All of a sudden a guy who wasn't good enough to be a throw in to complete a deal has become the possible headliner of a deal. It has always been my position that the C's need an impactful 5. Not only for the added rim protection but to allow Al to play PF which is his best position. With the emergence of Rozier you now have 4 starter quality guards which is great but probably not affordable long term. The C's will need to move one of Smart or Rozier. Off seasons with the Celtics should continue to be interesting with all the assets Danny has at his disposal. Why do you say he wasn’t good enough to be a throw in? Only reports I recall were Danny supposedly over valuing him. I’m not sure Smart is necessary “starter quality”. If he’s starting for you then you’re likely not very good. |
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Post by Don Caballero on May 1, 2018 12:38:41 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 12:40:15 GMT -5
His son is a really cute kid... he’s got Als ears |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 13:07:35 GMT -5
You still don't see all-star upside in Rozier? The things he can do are crazy. My wife was like OMG he looks like a bigger Thomas, he's just so athletic and does all those crazy things Thomas did. Go look at the Harden trade, they got Martin, a recent lottery pick Lamb, another lottery pick that became Stevens and another first round pick. I know it seems crazy because he's Harden, but go look at his stats before the trade. The Rockets were betting on upside, Harden was very good on the Thunder, but he wasn't close to current Harden. Rozier has crazy upside. He is just like Harden in his third year, but in a way he's already carrying this team. Rozier has crazy high value right now. Yea, I see the upside. Now can we stop comparing the two? Harden was a much better player at the time he was traded and he had a much better pedigree for a reason. He’s also now become one of the best offensive players in the history of the NBA. The key word being became, which is my whole point. The Harden that was traded was a lot closer to Rozier than you think. Roziers numbers from when he started starting and in the playoffs are right there with Harden. Heck right now Rozier has better numbers than Harden ever did in the playoffs before he was traded. Looking at PER, WS/48 and box score plus minus, nevermind normal stats. He's showing you special traits and incredible upside just like Harden did. Just remember Harden averaged 9.9, 12.2 and 16.8 points before he was traded. Yes he was a higher pick, but frankly that means nothing. He did receive a lot more minutes on a rebuilding team, but that's about it. So I don't buy Rozier isn't worth a top ten pick when Harden cost two top ten picks, another first and Kevin Martin who at the time was an above average starter. Rozier has only started 24 games in his career and just keeps getting better. |
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Post by Don Caballero on May 1, 2018 13:46:12 GMT -5
His son is a really cute kid... he’s got Als ears Adorable kid indeed, he has that old man expression lol. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 1, 2018 13:52:40 GMT -5
Rozier has certainly become a much bigger asset and that is a very good thing!! All of a sudden a guy who wasn't good enough to be a throw in to complete a deal has become the possible headliner of a deal. It has always been my position that the C's need an impactful 5. Not only for the added rim protection but to allow Al to play PF which is his best position. With the emergence of Rozier you now have 4 starter quality guards which is great but probably not affordable long term. The C's will need to move one of Smart or Rozier. Off seasons with the Celtics should continue to be interesting with all the assets Danny has at his disposal. Why do you say he wasn’t good enough to be a throw in? Only reports I recall were Danny supposedly over valuing him. I’m not sure Smart is necessary “starter quality”. If he’s starting for you then you’re likely not very good. I thought I remembered a deal that the C's lost out on at the deadline that included him but the team went with another package? Could be wrong but that isn't the point, even if I don't remember correctly his value has grown exponentially. If not for the injury to Smart he would have been starting over Rozier and in regards to the team being bad for him to start. If he isn't the primary ball handler and the point guard was good he would make a very good 2 guard. Not in the traditional sense but his D and intangibles make him a winner and that translates to a winning team regardless if his offense is questionable. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 13:58:57 GMT -5
Harden age 22 (3rd season): averaged 17 ppg on 49% shooting. Was the 3rd pick in the draft after his freshman year in college. Was the 17th ranked recruit in his high school class. Is 6’5”.
Rozier is 23, averages 11 ppgon under 40% shooting. Was the 16th pick in the draft (considered a slight reach by some). Was the 75th ranked prospect in his high school class and is 6’2”. He played 5.5 less minutes per game than Harden did in his 3rd season.
Listen, I love Rozier, I do see everything goes right All-Star upside. He’s no Harden, never was and never will be. I don’t want to trade him; Id like ownership to step up and keep this core, including him together. Let’s just not go overboard.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 14:00:42 GMT -5
Also, it’s not a badge of honor that he only has 24 starts in 3 years. You don’t give a guy extra credit for being slower to develop. Again, I love Rozier.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 14:46:34 GMT -5
Never said he was Harden, said his value is a lot closer than you think.
Opportunity matters, Rozier played behind Thomas and Irving. With Smart in between as the ultimate team/glue guy and leader of our D.
Nevermind Rozier has been making maybe the hardest transition in Basketball going from gun slinging SG to actually becoming a true PG. He didn't start playing PG till halfway through his 2nd year at College. After he caught fire he still passed the ball, kept playing within our offense. Heck all of sudden him and Horford have the pick and rolls down now. He plays under control most of the game, the game has slowed down for him.
Compare Rozier stats when he starts or compare per 36 minutes stats and you'll see what I mean.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 1, 2018 14:51:51 GMT -5
Going into the 2019/2020 season the Celtics are going to have close to 110 million tied up in Horford, Hayward, Kyrie, Brown and Tatum. And that is with Brown and Tatum still on their rookie deals. That doesn't leave much cap room to fill out the roster if you want to keep Smart or Rozier let alone both.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 15:24:05 GMT -5
Never said he was Harden, said his value is a lot closer than you think. Opportunity matters, Rozier played behind Thomas and Irving. With Smart in between as the ultimate team/glue guy and leader of our D. Nevermind Rozier has been making maybe the hardest transition in Basketball going from gun slinging SG to actually becoming a true PG. He didn't start playing PG till halfway through his 2nd year at College. After he caught fire he still passed the ball, kept playing within our offense. Heck all of sudden him and Horford have the pick and rolls down now. He plays under control most of the game, the game has slowed down for him. Compare Rozier stats when he starts or compare per 36 minutes stats and you'll see what I mean. It’s true the fact you want to compare Rozier to Harden means you think they are more comparable than I think they are. That’s the truth. The problem with making that argument is it takes away from all the good things Rozier does that we agree on because you want to compare him to the league MVP who at the same age put up 25 a game and was always considered to have that type of ceiling. Taking some random stats from small sample sizes of Roziers career and saying “see they aren’t that far off” isn’t a place I’m willing to go. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 15:26:03 GMT -5
Going into the 2019/2020 season the Celtics are going to have close to 110 million tied up in Horford, Hayward, Kyrie, Brown and Tatum. And that is with Brown and Tatum still on their rookie deals. That doesn't leave much cap room to fill out the roster if you want to keep Smart or Rozier let alone both. I got news for you; no matter who they keep there’s not going to be cap room to fill out the roster. They will be filling it out with draft picks, exception money and bird rights money for a while if all goes well. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 1, 2018 15:36:43 GMT -5
Never said he was Harden, said his value is a lot closer than you think. Opportunity matters, Rozier played behind Thomas and Irving. With Smart in between as the ultimate team/glue guy and leader of our D. Nevermind Rozier has been making maybe the hardest transition in Basketball going from gun slinging SG to actually becoming a true PG. He didn't start playing PG till halfway through his 2nd year at College. After he caught fire he still passed the ball, kept playing within our offense. Heck all of sudden him and Horford have the pick and rolls down now. He plays under control most of the game, the game has slowed down for him. Compare Rozier stats when he starts or compare per 36 minutes stats and you'll see what I mean. It’s true the fact you want to compare Rozier to Harden means you think they are more comparable than I think they are. That’s the truth. The problem with making that argument is it takes away from all the good things Rozier does that we agree on because you want to compare him to the league MVP who at the same age put up 25 a game and was always considered to have that type of ceiling. Taking some random stats from small sample sizes of Roziers career and saying “see they aren’t that far off” isn’t a place I’m willing to go. I'm comparing him to Harden in year 3, same as Rozier. You just can't seem to do that. You just see Harden for who he is now and what he became. The Thunder certainly didn't think he'd be this good or they wouldn't have traded him. |
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Post by benogliviesbrother on May 1, 2018 17:36:15 GMT -5
There's more straw in this thread than a Missouri barn.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 1, 2018 18:18:37 GMT -5
I don't think the Celtics would trade Irving Umass. If anything, they are going to re-up him. Plus, his trade value couldn't be any lower coming off yet another knee surgery.
I do agree that Rozier should be worth a top 10 pick and should get that with his performances recently and this year. His trade value couldn't be any higher and he's just starting to show his upside.
The Celtics are really good and deep and this is a good problem to have, but I don't know how you keep everyone. Minus well re-up with young draft picks rather than lose players like Rozier or Smart for nothing. I don't see Smart EVER being worth close to Rozier's trade value right now, so for that reason, I'd re-up Smart on a good deal and take Rozier's upside and trade it for another upside piece with team control. I do like RJP's idea with getting that Brooklyn pick back with a Rozier trade.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 18:19:31 GMT -5
It’s true the fact you want to compare Rozier to Harden means you think they are more comparable than I think they are. That’s the truth. The problem with making that argument is it takes away from all the good things Rozier does that we agree on because you want to compare him to the league MVP who at the same age put up 25 a game and was always considered to have that type of ceiling. Taking some random stats from small sample sizes of Roziers career and saying “see they aren’t that far off” isn’t a place I’m willing to go. I'm comparing him to Harden in year 3, same as Rozier. You just can't seem to do that. You just see Harden for who he is now and what he became. The Thunder certainly didn't think he'd be this good or they wouldn't have traded him. This is so false. Harden was only traded because OKC couldn’t afford to keep him. They already signed Westbrook, Durant and Ibaka. They wouldn’t give Harden the max deal he wanted, deserved and got. It had nothing to do with them not thinking he was a great player. Don’t forget he was the sixth man on those teams and he was already on Team USA. There’s a reason Roziers name has never been brought up around Team USA. Do you really think teams would give Rozier a max contract right now if he were eligible? |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 18:22:07 GMT -5
I don't think the Celtics would trade Irving Umass. If anything, they are going to re-up him. Plus, his trade value couldn't be any lower coming off yet another knee surgery. I do agree that Rozier should be worth a top 10 pick and should get that with his performances recently and this year. His trade value couldn't be any higher and he's just starting to show his upside. The Celtics are really good and deep and this is a good problem to have, but I don't know how you keep everyone. Minus well re-up with young draft picks rather than lose players like Rozier or Smart for nothing. I don't see Smart EVER being worth close to Rozier's trade value right now, so for that reason, I'd re-up Smart on a good deal and take Rozier's upside and trade it for another upside piece with team control. I do like RJP's idea with getting that Brooklyn pick back with a Rozier trade. For the record my idea isn’t to get the Brooklyn pick back, it’s to keep him and sign him to a deal. I don’t care about the money; it’s not mine. If these guys shell out the contracts to keep those core together they will win a lot and not lose money. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 1, 2018 18:25:02 GMT -5
Yeah the only comparable to Rozier and Harden is that probably both the Thunder and Celtics won't be able to pay both players past their rookie deals.
Other than that, I won't go there though.
Getting legitimate value for Rozier needs to start happening though. I *hate* losing players for free after their rookie deals are up.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 1, 2018 18:29:17 GMT -5
I don't think the Celtics would trade Irving Umass. If anything, they are going to re-up him. Plus, his trade value couldn't be any lower coming off yet another knee surgery. I do agree that Rozier should be worth a top 10 pick and should get that with his performances recently and this year. His trade value couldn't be any higher and he's just starting to show his upside. The Celtics are really good and deep and this is a good problem to have, but I don't know how you keep everyone. Minus well re-up with young draft picks rather than lose players like Rozier or Smart for nothing. I don't see Smart EVER being worth close to Rozier's trade value right now, so for that reason, I'd re-up Smart on a good deal and take Rozier's upside and trade it for another upside piece with team control. I do like RJP's idea with getting that Brooklyn pick back with a Rozier trade. For the record my idea isn’t to get the Brooklyn pick back, it’s to keep him and sign him to a deal. I don’t care about the money; it’s not mine. If these guys shell out the contracts to keep those core together they will win a lot and not lose money. Ohh for sure, not my money either. I like everyone on this roster and want to see it stay for a long time, but I can see where the owners step in and say "we aren't paying everyone, your going to have to choose." This is why I hate comparing Rozier to Smart all the time in those arguments. I really like both of them. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 1, 2018 19:38:08 GMT -5
Yeah the only comparable to Rozier and Harden is that probably both the Thunder and Celtics won't be able to pay both players past their rookie deals. Other than that, I won't go there though. Getting legitimate value for Rozier needs to start happening though. I *hate* losing players for free after their rookie deals are up. I just don’t see why we’d trade him if we want to contend for a Title next year, which we do. Not that a window is closing but Al is 31 and Rozier will only be a restricted free agent. The only reason you’d sell him now is if you think it’s peak value and he’s not nearly as good as he’s been. Even then, if he can help you win a title then you keep him at least for next year. |
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