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2017-18 Celtics Season Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 17:18:22 GMT -5
The more playoff rounds the better for these guys. I can’t put an answer on how helpful as I think guys like Tatum and Brown and Rozier have proven to themselves they can be aggressive and be a go to type guy and shouldn’t hesitate which is what we wanted them to get. But it’s also just fun watching them. If someone is going treat Rozier like a future All-star/ James Harden in a trade, then hell yes you trade him, but anything short of that then no. For example if you can get Leonard for something like him, Smart and Morris while keeping Brown and Tatum because Rozier is suddenly a substitute for one of them then surely you deal him. By the way, yes you can lose both Smart and Rozier if you added Leonard. Not happening but that’s just my example. How do you play Horford , Irving, Hayward, Tatum, Brown and Leonard? He's a very good player, but I don't get that mix at all. Frankly given Tatum, Brown and Hayward not sure why everyone keeps bringing up Leonard. You also have to question his injury, which seemed minor but cost him the year. The value makes sense, even though the money doesn't. You'd have to add a bunch more players to match salary. You can play them together pretty easily if you want a stacked team crushing people. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 4, 2018 17:20:30 GMT -5
I think the main problem we all have with your comment UMASS is that you're picking one guy that you see running the offense. Really, the offense hasn't been like that since Kyrie went down. Even when Kyrie was healthy, the ball was still being run through Al Horford a ton.
The basic point is that Rozier isn't the main man running the offense. It's not what I'm seeing. It's run through multiple guys, between Smart, Horford, Tatum, and Rozier.
Tatum isn't creating shots for others, but he creates plays on isolation (whether it's for himself or others), which is what this team designs him to do for about 10-20 plays a night on average (sometimes more or less).
If I had to pick one guy that is running the offense, it's Horford. The ball finds him really early in the shot clock a lot and he's usually the first to make 2 or 3 passes to create a shot for the open shooter.
Rozier is a big part of the offense and creates a ton of offense himself, but he isn't the main man here. Horford has been vital to running this team on both ends of the floor and has been the Celtics floor general really.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 17:22:33 GMT -5
Rozier has improved running the offense no doubt. He still dribbles a lot at times and is slow into the offense so I’m not so sure I agree with the tempo part. But Smart does the same thing at times then jacks a desperation 3.
When i made my post to try and mush Rozier he had been playing god awful to start that game. Not just shots aren’t falling just all around terrible play. In the playoffs he’s been great at home but his 3 road games have been putrid. Really good players can play on road. I love what he’s done considering what was and should have been expected. But he’s far from a finished product still. Start putting these games together on the road and I’ll start talking.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 4, 2018 17:39:05 GMT -5
As a side note, I just kind of thought to myself, it's really funny watching Smart and Simmons play in the same game.
I mean they couldn't be anymore polar opposites of each other.
Smart will take any shot on the court, no matter how bad of a shot he has or how much of a bad shot attempt it is.
Simmons won't shoot the ball at all on offense.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 17:56:40 GMT -5
As a side note, I just kind of thought to myself, it's really funny watching Smart and Simmons play in the same game. I mean they couldn't be anymore polar opposites of each other. Smart will take any shot on the court, no matter how bad of a shot he has or how much of a bad shot attempt it is. Simmons won't shoot the ball at all on offense. I thought you were going to go with the personality. Simmons is so passionless, I really can’t stand the guy. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 4, 2018 18:19:35 GMT -5
How do you play Horford , Irving, Hayward, Tatum, Brown and Leonard? He's a very good player, but I don't get that mix at all. Frankly given Tatum, Brown and Hayward not sure why everyone keeps bringing up Leonard. You also have to question his injury, which seemed minor but cost him the year. The value makes sense, even though the money doesn't. You'd have to add a bunch more players to match salary. You can play them together pretty easily if you want a stacked team crushing people. You can't play 6 guys at a time, which was my point. Could one of those guys be ok not starting? Sure. One of those guys being ok with being on the bench during crunch time? Not a chance. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 18:34:05 GMT -5
You can play them together pretty easily if you want a stacked team crushing people. You can't play 6 guys at a time, which was my point. Could one of those guys be ok not starting? Sure. One of those guys being ok with being on the bench during crunch time? Not a chance. So your argument is they are too good? I already know you think Rozier is a high level starter so he won’t be happy in your scenario either so the move is to trade him for worse players than a guy like Leonard because the group is too good and if they are all healthy one will have to be on the bench during a big stretch. Feels like one of those good problems. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 4, 2018 18:36:32 GMT -5
I think the main problem we all have with your comment UMASS is that you're picking one guy that you see running the offense. Really, the offense hasn't been like that since Kyrie went down. Even when Kyrie was healthy, the ball was still being run through Al Horford a ton. The basic point is that Rozier isn't the main man running the offense. It's not what I'm seeing. It's run through multiple guys, between Smart, Horford, Tatum, and Rozier. Tatum isn't creating shots for others, but he creates plays on isolation (whether it's for himself or others), which is what this team designs him to do for about 10-20 plays a night on average (sometimes more or less). If I had to pick one guy that is running the offense, it's Horford. The ball finds him really early in the shot clock a lot and he's usually the first to make 2 or 3 passes to create a shot for the open shooter. Rozier is a big part of the offense and creates a ton of offense himself, but he isn't the main man here. Horford has been vital to running this team on both ends of the floor and has been the Celtics floor general really. Pedro that's the whole point, Rozier is running the offense better than Irving ever did. In Stevens offense he wants everyone touching the ball. Irving playing hero ball, like Thomas used to would stop our ball movement. Those guys also don't drive to pass a ton, more to score. Which leads to everyone standing around watching Irving do his thing. Which is why we needed Horford so much with Irving and Thomas. Notice in the playoffs Horfords assists are down and his scoring is way up. In Stevens ball movement offense the PGs job is tempo , calling the plays, getting guys in the right spot, then start the passing. Then get it back and create or pass it again. Rozier has been moving guys around , calling plays and taking charge. You see it every game, then starts the ball movement. You are doing your job well in Stevens offense if everyone it touching the ball and you're creating for others ! All while almost never turning the ball over. The numbers back up that he's doing a great job. Kenny Smith talking about how he's impacting the offense even when he's not scoring. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 4, 2018 18:46:34 GMT -5
You can't play 6 guys at a time, which was my point. Could one of those guys be ok not starting? Sure. One of those guys being ok with being on the bench during crunch time? Not a chance. So your argument is they are too good? I already know you think Rozier is a high level starter so he won’t be happy in your scenario either so the move is to trade him for worse players than a guy like Leonard because the group is too good and if they are all healthy one will have to be on the bench during a big stretch. Feels like one of those good problems. It's what I said before playing time will be this teams biggest issue next year. Your idea makes that even worse and greatly increases salary and would gut the teams overall depth. Nevermind it doesn't even make sense. PG is the one position where the Spurs have a good young player and superstar players cost a ton. I have no clue what Danny will do, but he won't create a team where Tatum and/or Brown aren't playing chrunch time. Why would you want that? |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 19:14:14 GMT -5
So your argument is they are too good? I already know you think Rozier is a high level starter so he won’t be happy in your scenario either so the move is to trade him for worse players than a guy like Leonard because the group is too good and if they are all healthy one will have to be on the bench during a big stretch. Feels like one of those good problems. It's what I said before playing time will be this teams biggest issue next year. Your idea makes that even worse and greatly increases salary and would gut the teams overall depth. Nevermind it doesn't even make sense. PG is the one position where the Spurs have a good young player and superstar players cost a ton. I have no clue what Danny will do, but he won't create a team where Tatum and/or Brown aren't playing chrunch time. Why would you want that? Whoa, slow down.. I was just throwing an example of someone treating Rozier as that large of a piece not suggesting it was a likely trade in any way shape or form. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 19:14:48 GMT -5
I think the main problem we all have with your comment UMASS is that you're picking one guy that you see running the offense. Really, the offense hasn't been like that since Kyrie went down. Even when Kyrie was healthy, the ball was still being run through Al Horford a ton. The basic point is that Rozier isn't the main man running the offense. It's not what I'm seeing. It's run through multiple guys, between Smart, Horford, Tatum, and Rozier. Tatum isn't creating shots for others, but he creates plays on isolation (whether it's for himself or others), which is what this team designs him to do for about 10-20 plays a night on average (sometimes more or less). If I had to pick one guy that is running the offense, it's Horford. The ball finds him really early in the shot clock a lot and he's usually the first to make 2 or 3 passes to create a shot for the open shooter. Rozier is a big part of the offense and creates a ton of offense himself, but he isn't the main man here. Horford has been vital to running this team on both ends of the floor and has been the Celtics floor general really. Pedro that's the whole point, Rozier is running the offense better than Irving ever did. In Stevens offense he wants everyone touching the ball. Irving playing hero ball, like Thomas used to would stop our ball movement. Those guys also don't drive to pass a ton, more to score. Which leads to everyone standing around watching Irving do his thing. Which is why we needed Horford so much with Irving and Thomas. Notice in the playoffs Horfords assists are down and his scoring is way up. In Stevens ball movement offense the PGs job is tempo , calling the plays, getting guys in the right spot, then start the passing. Then get it back and create or pass it again. Rozier has been moving guys around , calling plays and taking charge. You see it every game, then starts the ball movement. You are doing your job well in Stevens offense if everyone it touching the ball and you're creating for others ! All while almost never turning the ball over. The numbers back up that he's doing a great job. Kenny Smith talking about how he's impacting the offense even when he's not scoring. I’m sorry, I need clarification. Are you saying Rozier is better than Kyrie? |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 4, 2018 19:20:37 GMT -5
It all reality, I would like to just keep the team they have, probably deal Smart next season or let his contract expire if it’s not a worthy trade and resign Rozier as the 3rd guard sixth man and make our draft picks.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 4, 2018 21:40:42 GMT -5
As a side note, I just kind of thought to myself, it's really funny watching Smart and Simmons play in the same game. I mean they couldn't be anymore polar opposites of each other. Smart will take any shot on the court, no matter how bad of a shot he has or how much of a bad shot attempt it is. Simmons won't shoot the ball at all on offense. I thought you were going to go with the personality. Simmons is so passionless, I really can’t stand the guy. Yeah I don't know Simmons personality wise, but the way he quits on plays and on games, it seem they are polar opposites of each other in this regard too. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 4, 2018 21:44:54 GMT -5
I think the main problem we all have with your comment UMASS is that you're picking one guy that you see running the offense. Really, the offense hasn't been like that since Kyrie went down. Even when Kyrie was healthy, the ball was still being run through Al Horford a ton. The basic point is that Rozier isn't the main man running the offense. It's not what I'm seeing. It's run through multiple guys, between Smart, Horford, Tatum, and Rozier. Tatum isn't creating shots for others, but he creates plays on isolation (whether it's for himself or others), which is what this team designs him to do for about 10-20 plays a night on average (sometimes more or less). If I had to pick one guy that is running the offense, it's Horford. The ball finds him really early in the shot clock a lot and he's usually the first to make 2 or 3 passes to create a shot for the open shooter. Rozier is a big part of the offense and creates a ton of offense himself, but he isn't the main man here. Horford has been vital to running this team on both ends of the floor and has been the Celtics floor general really. Pedro that's the whole point, Rozier is running the offense better than Irving ever did. In Stevens offense he wants everyone touching the ball. Irving playing hero ball, like Thomas used to would stop our ball movement. Those guys also don't drive to pass a ton, more to score. Which leads to everyone standing around watching Irving do his thing. Which is why we needed Horford so much with Irving and Thomas. Notice in the playoffs Horfords assists are down and his scoring is way up. In Stevens ball movement offense the PGs job is tempo , calling the plays, getting guys in the right spot, then start the passing. Then get it back and create or pass it again. Rozier has been moving guys around , calling plays and taking charge. You see it every game, then starts the ball movement. You are doing your job well in Stevens offense if everyone it touching the ball and you're creating for others ! All while almost never turning the ball over. The numbers back up that he's doing a great job. Kenny Smith talking about how he's impacting the offense even when he's not scoring. I like the up tempo offense and what Rozier has done. Not arguing against that. I think Kyrie is still better however, but that Steven A. Smith thing with Kyrie for Leonard is a good idea. I would do that. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 4, 2018 22:35:26 GMT -5
Pedro that's the whole point, Rozier is running the offense better than Irving ever did. In Stevens offense he wants everyone touching the ball. Irving playing hero ball, like Thomas used to would stop our ball movement. Those guys also don't drive to pass a ton, more to score. Which leads to everyone standing around watching Irving do his thing. Which is why we needed Horford so much with Irving and Thomas. Notice in the playoffs Horfords assists are down and his scoring is way up. In Stevens ball movement offense the PGs job is tempo , calling the plays, getting guys in the right spot, then start the passing. Then get it back and create or pass it again. Rozier has been moving guys around , calling plays and taking charge. You see it every game, then starts the ball movement. You are doing your job well in Stevens offense if everyone it touching the ball and you're creating for others ! All while almost never turning the ball over. The numbers back up that he's doing a great job. Kenny Smith talking about how he's impacting the offense even when he's not scoring. I’m sorry, I need clarification. Are you saying Rozier is better than Kyrie? At currently running this teams offense? Yes. Overall, I think you know that answer. Kyrie has all the talent in the world and could run Stevens offense about as well as it can be. Maybe he just needs more time, but like with Thomas I worry about his score first mentality. Thomas could look awesome in spurts, then he would just stop and the scorer took over. |
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Post by Don Caballero on May 4, 2018 23:54:24 GMT -5
At currently running this teams offense? Yes. Overall, I think you know that answer. Kyrie has all the talent in the world and could run Stevens offense about as well as it can be. Maybe he just needs more time, but like with Thomas I worry about his score first mentality. Thomas could look awesome in spurts, then he would just stop and the scorer took over. Couldn't they play together for long minutes? Rozier doesn't seem like a heavy ball dominant guard because he can shoot and Kyrie would probably score even more with someone setting him up. Something like a Kyrie - Rozier - Hayward - Tatum/Brown - Horford would be really hard to guard. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 5, 2018 8:45:28 GMT -5
At currently running this teams offense? Yes. Overall, I think you know that answer. Kyrie has all the talent in the world and could run Stevens offense about as well as it can be. Maybe he just needs more time, but like with Thomas I worry about his score first mentality. Thomas could look awesome in spurts, then he would just stop and the scorer took over. Couldn't they play together for long minutes? Rozier doesn't seem like a heavy ball dominant guard because he can shoot and Kyrie would probably score even more with someone setting him up. Something like a Kyrie - Rozier - Hayward - Tatum/Brown - Horford would be really hard to guard. Yes they can play together. I do disagree that Rozier is better at running the offense though but I’m not going to argue it. This team has been so injured and has had different guys in and out and different guys developing at rates it’s not really fair to compare some guys best 10 games to someone else. Plus we are acting like Rozier has been nails ever since Kyrie went down with no ups and downs. Even in the playoffs he’s been awesome at home (6 games) and brutal on the road (3 games). Kyrie was also playing with guys who either weren’t performing (Rozier, Smart, Morris, Semi, etc) or weren’t being aggressive yet with their games (Tatum, Brown and even Horford). Despite all that Kyrie started out running the offense really well then yes he did seem to be doing too much but there wasn’t anything else around him. One of the benefits to these injuries is these guys having to step up and be aggressive so when Hayward and Kyrie are back the expectation is that continues so a guy like Kyrie doesn’t have to do it himself. There’s only so much a guy like him will pass and watch a guy do nothing but give it back up before he skips that part. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 5, 2018 10:06:38 GMT -5
Yeah not to mention that Kyrie could easily been playing with discomfort in his knee all year. He was in and out of the lineup all season long.
I still think we have yet to see the best out of Kyrie in a Celtics uniform.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 5, 2018 12:01:06 GMT -5
Oh course they can play together. The thing to remember about Irving is he played almost his whole career with LeBron. In that role he wasn't the main guy running the offense, LeBron was. The Cavs offense is also nothing like our offense. So maybe he just needs time. A lot more of Stevens breaking bad habits. Rozier has spent three years learning how to run this offense. So its not really surprising he knows how to run it better.
Through 9 games in the playoffs the Celtics are averaging above there season average in points per game. They are doing that without their best offensive player. Without Smarts for games and even without Brown for a game and a half. So don't give me injuries were the reason. Playing the 16th and 4th ranked defenses.
So do you really think Horford, Brown and Tatum all going off at once doesn't have to do with Rozier?
These guys are all going off because Rozier is getting everyone involved running our offense. There is no hero ball going on, everyone is touching the ball. That's the key to Stevens offense.
I have to say one thing about tempo. It has nothing to do with Rozier walking up the court after a made basket.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 5, 2018 12:30:50 GMT -5
We will just have to agree to disagree that Rozier is the main man running the offense. Just glad he's performing.
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Post by GyIantosca on May 5, 2018 12:49:05 GMT -5
The best part is Rozier just increased his value huge. Before he would of been a throw in on a deal now he is a big piece. Eventually Ainge will not be able to afford him. What a pick people laugh at Ainge for picking Rozier that high. I tell you Ainge knows his shit. Sometimes he misses. But it depends where there drafting I hope next year with that Sac/Philly pick it turns out great. Too bad the Lakers were too good . They can still fall between 2-5. I doubt it.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 5, 2018 13:41:10 GMT -5
Oh course they can play together. The thing to remember about Irving is he played almost his whole career with LeBron. In that role he wasn't the main guy running the offense, LeBron was. The Cavs offense is also nothing like our offense. So maybe he just needs time. A lot more of Stevens breaking bad habits. Rozier has spent three years learning how to run this offense. So its not really surprising he knows how to run it better. Through 9 games in the playoffs the Celtics are averaging above there season average in points per game. They are doing that without their best offensive player. Without Smarts for games and even without Brown for a game and a half. So don't give me injuries were the reason. Playing the 16th and 4th ranked defenses. So do you really think Horford, Brown and Tatum all going off at once doesn't have to do with Rozier? These guys are all going off because Rozier is getting everyone involved running our offense. There is no hero ball going on, everyone is touching the ball. That's the key to Stevens offense. I have to say one thing about tempo. It has nothing to do with Rozier walking up the court after a made basket. You think Horford being aggressive offensively these playoffs is because of Rozier? I don’t. I think it’s because he knows he has to be a scorer with Kyrie out. Same with Tatum. I also, think a big part of Horford is just a vet knowing the stage and stepping things up. It’s not because someone is finally getting him involved. He always was involved. For what it’s worth, March 14 was first game with Kyrie done for the year. The Celtics shot a higher percentage as a team and scored more ppg prior to that than afterwards. Rozier shot 36% overall from March 14 to the end of the regular season, 40% at home and 34.2% on the road. He’s shooting 44% in the playoffs. 50.5% at home and 27.8% on the road. Kyrie had a 49% fg% this year. 48% at home and 50% on the road. Great players play every where, role players play better at home and tend to disappear on the road. Rozier has been amazing these playoffs, at home. He’s been nonexistent on the road. He had some great moments at the end of the regular season after Kyrie went down, but overall he was just solid. None of this is a knock on him it’s just what it is. It’s very encouraging from what he had been doing and he looks the part when hes on. But let’s not take 6 home playoff game performances out of context and start anointing him. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 5, 2018 16:03:28 GMT -5
Oh course they can play together. The thing to remember about Irving is he played almost his whole career with LeBron. In that role he wasn't the main guy running the offense, LeBron was. The Cavs offense is also nothing like our offense. So maybe he just needs time. A lot more of Stevens breaking bad habits. Rozier has spent three years learning how to run this offense. So its not really surprising he knows how to run it better. Through 9 games in the playoffs the Celtics are averaging above there season average in points per game. They are doing that without their best offensive player. Without Smarts for games and even without Brown for a game and a half. So don't give me injuries were the reason. Playing the 16th and 4th ranked defenses. So do you really think Horford, Brown and Tatum all going off at once doesn't have to do with Rozier? These guys are all going off because Rozier is getting everyone involved running our offense. There is no hero ball going on, everyone is touching the ball. That's the key to Stevens offense. I have to say one thing about tempo. It has nothing to do with Rozier walking up the court after a made basket. You think Horford being aggressive offensively these playoffs is because of Rozier? I don’t. I think it’s because he knows he has to be a scorer with Kyrie out. Same with Tatum. I also, think a big part of Horford is just a vet knowing the stage and stepping things up. It’s not because someone is finally getting him involved. He always was involved. For what it’s worth, March 14 was first game with Kyrie done for the year. The Celtics shot a higher percentage as a team and scored more ppg prior to that than afterwards. Rozier shot 36% overall from March 14 to the end of the regular season, 40% at home and 34.2% on the road. He’s shooting 44% in the playoffs. 50.5% at home and 27.8% on the road. Kyrie had a 49% fg% this year. 48% at home and 50% on the road. Great players play every where, role players play better at home and tend to disappear on the road. Rozier has been amazing these playoffs, at home. He’s been nonexistent on the road. He had some great moments at the end of the regular season after Kyrie went down, but overall he was just solid. None of this is a knock on him it’s just what it is. It’s very encouraging from what he had been doing and he looks the part when hes on. But let’s not take 6 home playoff game performances out of context and start anointing him. Yea you're 100% right all three just became better and the guy running the offense and dishing out the assists had no hand in that. Makes ton of sense. I'm talking about running the offense, getting everyone involved. Not who's the better offensive player, that is clear and no one is questioning that. Yet you keep bringing that up for some reason. Absolutely Rozier needs to improve his shooting on the road. At the same time he had 9, 8 and 5 assists in those 3 games. While limiting turnovers in every game besides game number 3. That's non-existent in your mind? Who's called Rozier great? Nevermind running an offense has nothing to do about the PGs field goal percentage. Congrats you've proven Irving is a great scorer, something no one debates. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 5, 2018 16:45:25 GMT -5
This is going better than I thought it would. Tatum is becoming a man.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 5, 2018 16:45:29 GMT -5
Morris and Tatum is carrying the load tonight.
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