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2017-18 Celtics Season Thread
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Post by Don Caballero on May 16, 2018 13:14:42 GMT -5
We'll see about Donic, just remember the Suns took Bender and that hasn't workout well has it? Euro players are sooo hard to judge and Ayton is a special talent and fills a huge need. Currently in the NBA it's a lot harder to get a great center than a PG/SG. A great PG/SG is much more useful to you than a great center in the modern NBA. Is Ayton mobile enough so teams won't do to him what the Rockets did to Gobert? I think Doncic is going to be a maniac but I also liked Bender over Jaylen (!!!) in that draft so what do I know lol. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 13:24:45 GMT -5
Anyone have any idea or seen any numbers that talk about the impact of sports gambling on the NBA salary cap? I have to assume the NBA won't be directly involved with gambling. So it won't get any share of the gambling profits. The biggest impact could be on TV ratings, but the current contract runs through 2024/2025, so those won't impact the league for a longtime. Are more people going to go to games because they are betting on them? Are people going to buy more NBA merchandise? It's not like people don't bet on games now illegally, they 100% do and Vegas has always taken sport bets legally. So I wouldn't really expect it to do much of anything in the near future in regards to the salary cap. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 13:34:32 GMT -5
We'll see about Donic, just remember the Suns took Bender and that hasn't workout well has it? Euro players are sooo hard to judge and Ayton is a special talent and fills a huge need. Currently in the NBA it's a lot harder to get a great center than a PG/SG. A great PG/SG is much more useful to you than a great center in the modern NBA. Is Ayton mobile enough so teams won't do to him what the Rockets did to Gobert? I think Doncic is going to be a maniac but I also liked Bender over Jaylen (!!!) in that draft so what do I know lol. What did the Rockets do to Gobert? I didn't watch a ton of that series, but Goberts numbers are almost exactly the same in the playoffs and regular season. Ayton isn't a Gobert, that's Bamba. Ayton is much more like Embiid, a guy that can score and play D. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 15:20:19 GMT -5
Lol, no. Terry has been awesome and looks like a legit NBA starter, but Kyrie is a significantly better player. I think people have short memories and have already forgotten how good he is. I will start off by saying I have no clue what we should do. Irving is a great player, but he has issues. Even though he gets a good amount of assists he's not really a PG, he's a SG. He's not the greatest fit in Stevens offense because he plays a lot of hero ball. One thing for a wing to do that, it's another when your PG does. Nevermind he's the weak link on D. Watching LeBron go off for 42 and his team lose big just shows it's about the best team, not just the best player. Our offense has improved since Irving went down, which is surprising isn't it? Tatum, Brown, Horford and Rozier have all gone off by simply playing Stevens ball movement offense. Is Irving willing to play more team ball? He litterally left the Cavs because he wanted to be LeBron leading a team. So I do have questions if he can become a true team player at this point in his career. So I haven't forgotten Irving is one of the best offensive players in the league, just like I haven't forgotten how I hate how he runs the offense. Been saying that all year. The question isn't is Rozier and Smart better than Irving, its are the Celtics a better team with Rozier and Smart over Irving? That isn't an easy question to answer. They can keep Smart and Irving or Smart plus Rozier so it’s not are they better with Rozier and Smart or Irving. Also, Kyrie is leading the team right now - maybe he’s not on the court but he’s being a leader just watch him on he bench and listen to Terry and Smart without prompt offer that up in interviews. Don’t overlook that. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 15:28:18 GMT -5
Anyone have any idea or seen any numbers that talk about the impact of sports gambling on the NBA salary cap? I have to assume the NBA won't be directly involved with gambling. So it won't get any share of the gambling profits. The biggest impact could be on TV ratings, but the current contract runs through 2024/2025, so those won't impact the league for a longtime. Are more people going to go to games because they are betting on them? Are people going to buy more NBA merchandise? It's not like people don't bet on games now illegally, they 100% do and Vegas has always taken sport bets legally. So I wouldn't really expect it to do much of anything in the near future in regards to the salary cap. There was talk about sports leagues getting part of the profits but idk if that’s accurate |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 15:29:05 GMT -5
Lol, no. Terry has been awesome and looks like a legit NBA starter, but Kyrie is a significantly better player. I think people have short memories and have already forgotten how good he is. I will start off by saying I have no clue what we should do. Irving is a great player, but he has issues. Even though he gets a good amount of assists he's not really a PG, he's a SG. He's not the greatest fit in Stevens offense because he plays a lot of hero ball. One thing for a wing to do that, it's another when your PG does. Nevermind he's the weak link on D. Watching LeBron go off for 42 and his team lose big just shows it's about the best team, not just the best player. Our offense has improved since Irving went down, which is surprising isn't it? Tatum, Brown, Horford and Rozier have all gone off by simply playing Stevens ball movement offense. Is Irving willing to play more team ball? He litterally left the Cavs because he wanted to be LeBron leading a team. So I do have questions if he can become a true team player at this point in his career. So I haven't forgotten Irving is one of the best offensive players in the league, just like I haven't forgotten how I hate how he runs the offense. Been saying that all year. The question isn't is Rozier and Smart better than Irving, its are the Celtics a better team with Rozier and Smart over Irving? That isn't an easy question to answer. You do know the offensive rating went down in the regular season after Kyrie was hurt right? I wouldn’t compare the playoffs to regular season. Stevens is able to game plan and they attack differently than they do in the regular season. Also, Cleveland has been god awful and we have over 112 offensive rating against them. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 16:48:07 GMT -5
I will start off by saying I have no clue what we should do. Irving is a great player, but he has issues. Even though he gets a good amount of assists he's not really a PG, he's a SG. He's not the greatest fit in Stevens offense because he plays a lot of hero ball. One thing for a wing to do that, it's another when your PG does. Nevermind he's the weak link on D. Watching LeBron go off for 42 and his team lose big just shows it's about the best team, not just the best player. Our offense has improved since Irving went down, which is surprising isn't it? Tatum, Brown, Horford and Rozier have all gone off by simply playing Stevens ball movement offense. Is Irving willing to play more team ball? He litterally left the Cavs because he wanted to be LeBron leading a team. So I do have questions if he can become a true team player at this point in his career. So I haven't forgotten Irving is one of the best offensive players in the league, just like I haven't forgotten how I hate how he runs the offense. Been saying that all year. The question isn't is Rozier and Smart better than Irving, its are the Celtics a better team with Rozier and Smart over Irving? That isn't an easy question to answer. They can keep Smart and Irving or Smart plus Rozier so it’s not are they better with Rozier and Smart or Irving. Also, Kyrie is leading the team right now - maybe he’s not on the court but he’s being a leader just watch him on he bench and listen to Terry and Smart without prompt offer that up in interviews. Don’t overlook that. Can they though? The one negative of this Run is that Smart is raising his value. I'm not so sure some team won't give him some stupid offer this offseason right now. I have to disagree 100% that Irving is leading this team. More like being a good teammate and helping the younger guys. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 16:55:38 GMT -5
I will start off by saying I have no clue what we should do. Irving is a great player, but he has issues. Even though he gets a good amount of assists he's not really a PG, he's a SG. He's not the greatest fit in Stevens offense because he plays a lot of hero ball. One thing for a wing to do that, it's another when your PG does. Nevermind he's the weak link on D. Watching LeBron go off for 42 and his team lose big just shows it's about the best team, not just the best player. Our offense has improved since Irving went down, which is surprising isn't it? Tatum, Brown, Horford and Rozier have all gone off by simply playing Stevens ball movement offense. Is Irving willing to play more team ball? He litterally left the Cavs because he wanted to be LeBron leading a team. So I do have questions if he can become a true team player at this point in his career. So I haven't forgotten Irving is one of the best offensive players in the league, just like I haven't forgotten how I hate how he runs the offense. Been saying that all year. The question isn't is Rozier and Smart better than Irving, its are the Celtics a better team with Rozier and Smart over Irving? That isn't an easy question to answer. You do know the offensive rating went down in the regular season after Kyrie was hurt right? I wouldn’t compare the playoffs to regular season. Stevens is able to game plan and they attack differently than they do in the regular season. Also, Cleveland has been god awful and we have over 112 offensive rating against them. I have to disagree again. Teams get extra rest and can play 100% effort on D, Refs allow more contact than in regular season. Teams usually do worse on offense in the postseason than regular season. Cleveland is bad, but it was up after the first two rounds also. The period in the regular season your talking about had no Irving, Smart, Theis, and we even lost Larkin for a bunch of games. Nevermind that was when Horford, Tatum, Brown and Rozier were figuring out how to gel and run an offense without our #1 option. So I don't take much stock in games were Allen and Bird were playing minutes after not playing all year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 17:00:16 GMT -5
You don’t think he’s acting like a leader? If you want to get semantical and say Horford is leading them or that a guy can’t lead from the bench then go for it but from listening to Rozier Kyrie has been a good leader and has been extremely helpful. That’s leadership and selfless from an athlete who has people talking like this guy should take his job.
Technically, they can keep Smart even if a big offer comes in but I doubt that’s happening. He’s literally done nothing he hasn’t done - this is Smart and everyone knows that. This isn’t a Rozier situation so no I do not think his salary outlook has changed. He’s not a guy you use cap room on; he’s a guy you use bird rights on. But I’ve been wrong a ton.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 17:28:50 GMT -5
Yea I'm saying a player can't be leading a team from the bench. I won't disagree with him acting like a leader, I'd just call it being a good teammate. Most players would do the samething, LeBron would do the samething. There's a lot more to leading a team though. Overall I think Horford and Smart are much better leaders. They do whatever it takes for the team to win. They don't care about stats.
Nevermind I think you took my comments wrong when I said Irving left the Cavs to be like LeBron leading a team. I wasn't talking about leadership, I was talking about being the guy, the number one scorer, the best player on the team. He wanted that, to be the guy.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 16, 2018 18:00:11 GMT -5
Lots of great commentary on here as usual, I don't have the time to respond to it all right now bot I do have some thoughts that will be coming soon.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 16, 2018 18:10:01 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like about Kyrie is the knee problems. He's better than Rozier if he has no more knee problems the rest of his career.
The Celtics aren't moving off of Kyrie after giving up so much to get him, so it's a moot point anyways.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on May 16, 2018 18:47:14 GMT -5
I don’t think anyone on here is in position to say which players are and aren’t leaders.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on May 16, 2018 18:48:36 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like about Kyrie is the knee problems. He's better than Rozier if he has no more knee problems the rest of his career. The Celtics aren't moving off of Kyrie after giving up so much to get him, so it's a moot point anyways. I agree with your first point, but Ainge has proven he’s willing to trade anyone and everyone if he thinks the move will make the team better. (I don’t think they move Kyrie, though. They have a contending team next year if they stand mostly pat.) |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 16, 2018 20:16:42 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like about Kyrie is the knee problems. He's better than Rozier if he has no more knee problems the rest of his career. The Celtics aren't moving off of Kyrie after giving up so much to get him, so it's a moot point anyways. I agree with your first point, but Ainge has proven he’s willing to trade anyone and everyone if he thinks the move will make the team better. (I don’t think they move Kyrie, though. They have a contending team next year if they stand mostly pat.) Meh, Danny usually trades to get better though. There is not many players who are better than Kyrie. |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 16, 2018 20:33:37 GMT -5
The key is having a top 10 player who buys into the Stevens way of playing basketball, which is what we are seeing in the playoffs right now. Four guys are all averaging about 18 points/game.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 21:05:18 GMT -5
You do know the offensive rating went down in the regular season after Kyrie was hurt right? I wouldn’t compare the playoffs to regular season. Stevens is able to game plan and they attack differently than they do in the regular season. Also, Cleveland has been god awful and we have over 112 offensive rating against them. I have to disagree again. Teams get extra rest and can play 100% effort on D, Refs allow more contact than in regular season. Teams usually do worse on offense in the postseason than regular season. Cleveland is bad, but it was up after the first two rounds also. The period in the regular season your talking about had no Irving, Smart, Theis, and we even lost Larkin for a bunch of games. Nevermind that was when Horford, Tatum, Brown and Rozier were figuring out how to gel and run an offense without our #1 option. So I don't take much stock in games were Allen and Bird were playing minutes after not playing all year. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t compare regular season games either since it doesn’t fit. I’d definitely go with the playoff sample even though playoff series are coached and played completely different than regular season games. I’d just assume that the offense next season will be better with Rozier than it would be with Kyrie. But in all seriousness, you can’t compare any of it from a long term perspective. Kyrie going down put more onus on other guys to step up and they did. Kyrie wasn’t stopping them from stepping up though. There’s a big difference between those two things. Young guys take time to figure things out and they naturally defer to veterans which isn’t always good. Now that they’ve done what they’ve done, I think it’s silly to think Kyrie is going to come in and change that. These guys won’t act like subordinates next year. |
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Post by rjp313jr on May 16, 2018 21:09:03 GMT -5
They shouldn’t be trading Kyrie or Rozier next year. They should be seeing how Kyrie’s knee is next season before he’s a free agent and thy control Rozier as insurance for at least 2 more years. It’s a nice spot to be.
And yes they should be seeing his Kyrie integrates into the offense with Hayward and everyone. If he doesn’t play team ball, which i don’t think is a real concern, then you may not resign him.
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Post by Don Caballero on May 16, 2018 22:19:36 GMT -5
What did the Rockets do to Gobert? I didn't watch a ton of that series, but Goberts numbers are almost exactly the same in the playoffs and regular season. Ayton isn't a Gobert, that's Bamba. Ayton is much more like Embiid, a guy that can score and play D. Pulled him away from the paint and forced him to close on shooters which he could not do at all. He wasn't efficient on the games I watched, not Tristan Thompson bad, but pretty mediocre. If Ayton is like Embiid then he definitely has a future (Gobert has as well obviously, but he's more of a matchup kind of guy), being able to guard away from the paint is key for a big in the modern NBA. Guys like Baynes who are insane guarding the paint but kind of a statue outside of it are not going to play 24+ minutes against elite teams. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 16, 2018 22:53:44 GMT -5
I have to disagree again. Teams get extra rest and can play 100% effort on D, Refs allow more contact than in regular season. Teams usually do worse on offense in the postseason than regular season. Cleveland is bad, but it was up after the first two rounds also. The period in the regular season your talking about had no Irving, Smart, Theis, and we even lost Larkin for a bunch of games. Nevermind that was when Horford, Tatum, Brown and Rozier were figuring out how to gel and run an offense without our #1 option. So I don't take much stock in games were Allen and Bird were playing minutes after not playing all year. I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t compare regular season games either since it doesn’t fit. I’d definitely go with the playoff sample even though playoff series are coached and played completely different than regular season games. I’d just assume that the offense next season will be better with Rozier than it would be with Kyrie. But in all seriousness, you can’t compare any of it from a long term perspective. Kyrie going down put more onus on other guys to step up and they did. Kyrie wasn’t stopping them from stepping up though. There’s a big difference between those two things. Young guys take time to figure things out and they naturally defer to veterans which isn’t always good. Now that they’ve done what they’ve done, I think it’s silly to think Kyrie is going to come in and change that. These guys won’t act like subordinates next year. Rip over the last 4 years we've played in 8 playoffs series under Stevens. In the 5 playoff series before this year, not once did the Celtics increase scoring during a playoff series compared to the regular season. Nevermind on average for the entire playoffs. Overall it was a fairly big drop off in our playoff scoring. This year they have done that twice and there overall playoff scoring is up for the first time in 4 years. Without its best scorer. I don't agree Irving wasn't stoping them. Irving goes down and Horford, Tatum, Brown and Rozier all go off. The offense increases in the playoffs for the first time in 4 years without its best scorer. Its all ball movement and spreading the ball around. Something Irving would stop. He's a great scorer, no doubting that, but he's from the LeBron school of iso ball. I love Irving the scorer, I don't like Irving the PG. Not in Stevens offense. Maybe he can improve, he has the talent. I just wonder if he win. Next year adding Hayward, we'll need ball movement and sharing the ball even more. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 16, 2018 23:17:07 GMT -5
...What did the Rockets do to Gobert? I didn't watch a ton of that series, but Goberts numbers are almost exactly the same in the playoffs and regular season. Ayton isn't a Gobert, that's Bamba. Ayton is much more like Embiid, a guy that can score and play D. The dope on Ayton is that he has serious offensive chops with a post up game and 3-pt range. Defense is another matter at this point. He stands around too much. That can be rectified given that he's coachable. But he's not someone you'd want at the heart of a stout defense right now. |
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Post by dangermike on May 17, 2018 0:35:23 GMT -5
They shouldn’t be trading Kyrie or Rozier next year. They should be seeing how Kyrie’s knee is next season before he’s a free agent and thy control Rozier as insurance for at least 2 more years. It’s a nice spot to be. And yes they should be seeing his Kyrie integrates into the offense with Hayward and everyone. If he doesn’t play team ball, which i don’t think is a real concern, then you may not resign him. This is why I posed the dealing Kyrie question because I really don’t like the option of seeing whether or not Kyrie is a.) healthy or b.) able to fit in with the new-new identity of this team. Yeah, he’s definitely better than Rozier but perhaps Rozier’s extreme unselfishness is what makes this team better. Also the area that Horford gets to really explore as point forward without having someone pound the ball for 20 seconds out of the shot clock. I may be biased against Kyrie because I very much prefer a pass-first PG, but trading him for an asset that we need is a valuable consideration. Larkin is fine with the 3rd unit and Rozier and Smart are good PG options when you consider the amount of time Horford spends at the top of the key. Theis will be back and will have this year under his belt, which will provide depth to the front court but imagine this roster plus GH and a stretch 3-4 to take some of Morris’ minutes... that’s a marked improvement in my opinion |
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Post by voiceofreason on May 17, 2018 8:07:26 GMT -5
Ayton has the tools to be the best center in the league when in his prime. It will depend on his work ethic and coaching to see if he gets there but he has that kind of potential, from what I read anyway. David Robinson comparisons have been made.
I think this draft will be looked back on as one of the best ever for guys 6'10" or bigger, heck even the best guard is 6'8". Bagley, Bamba, Porter and Jackson could all end up being elite and then there are a few that could end up being very good. I would love it if the C's could trade up to get one of these guys. If Bamba falls a bit and Danny went for it the C's would have a 7'9" wingspan rim protector that has shown good touch on his jumper. That would be fun to watch.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 17, 2018 8:35:29 GMT -5
In regards to trading Irving I think people are forgetting he is a top 10 talent in this league and he spoke glowingly about playing team ball in the Stevens system. Danny will sell high on Rozier IMO. He could wait to make sure Irvings knee is ok but he will probably try to sell high on him before losing him to FA. Just my opinion. Remember he has done this consistently in the past. There is a decent chance that we are seeing the best of Rozier right now, ala IT, Jae and Evan Turner.
I am beginning to worry that Smarts value is climbing too much to keep him longterm but we will find out soon with him. Great problems to have.
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Post by rjp313jr on May 17, 2018 8:45:08 GMT -5
I don’t blame you, I wouldn’t compare regular season games either since it doesn’t fit. I’d definitely go with the playoff sample even though playoff series are coached and played completely different than regular season games. I’d just assume that the offense next season will be better with Rozier than it would be with Kyrie. But in all seriousness, you can’t compare any of it from a long term perspective. Kyrie going down put more onus on other guys to step up and they did. Kyrie wasn’t stopping them from stepping up though. There’s a big difference between those two things. Young guys take time to figure things out and they naturally defer to veterans which isn’t always good. Now that they’ve done what they’ve done, I think it’s silly to think Kyrie is going to come in and change that. These guys won’t act like subordinates next year. Rip over the last 4 years we've played in 8 playoffs series under Stevens. In the 5 playoff series before this year, not once did the Celtics increase scoring during a playoff series compared to the regular season. Nevermind on average for the entire playoffs. Overall it was a fairly big drop off in our playoff scoring. This year they have done that twice and there overall playoff scoring is up for the first time in 4 years. Without its best scorer. I don't agree Irving wasn't stoping them. Irving goes down and Horford, Tatum, Brown and Rozier all go off. The offense increases in the playoffs for the first time in 4 years without its best scorer. Its all ball movement and spreading the ball around. Something Irving would stop. He's a great scorer, no doubting that, but he's from the LeBron school of iso ball. I love Irving the scorer, I don't like Irving the PG. Not in Stevens offense. Maybe he can improve, he has the talent. I just wonder if he win. Next year adding Hayward, we'll need ball movement and sharing the ball even more. You mean the last 4 years when the team had no options to run the offense through? You can’t game plan offensively when you’re running out a miniature back court with no offensive versatility (Isaiah Thomas and Avery Bradley), Jae Crowder, Gerald Green and Kelly Olynik and rookie Jaylen Brown who couldn’t shoot or finish at the rim. And that was the best group Stevens ever had to work with during the playoffs. This team has scoring and shooting 1-5. They’ve used that to perfection on the offensive end. That’s not Rozier, that’s Stevens game planning. It’s Stevens looking across the court and seeing a major hole or holes on the other side and attacking it relentlessly. You want to put Reddick and Belinelli on the court for their shooting? Fine, but we are going to turn Baynes into a 3 point threat so Embiid leaves the paint and we abuse those other guys. You think Baynes was knocking down those 3 pointers or even taking them because of Rozier? Give me a break. He’s doing the same against Cleveland, only it’s way easier because they suck so bad on that end. It was harder against the Bucks because they had fewer mismatches to exploit so even though the Sixers has better defensive numbers than the Bucks during the year the Bucks were a harder matchup on that front. A healthy Kyrie will likely run this offense better than Rozier next season, but Terry has been great. It’s awesome to see how he’s stepped up and developed. It’s such a large leap that you either deal him for a legit star level package or keep him as an exciting insurance to Kyrie. Next year we can see how Kyrie’s knee recovers. We can see what an offense with him, Hayward, Brown, Tatum and Horford looks like. They get to control Rozier for at least 2 more season and they should take full advantage of that. But they need to see how Kyrie goes because it more likely than no they are better with him than Terry because he’s just a better player and that’s not a knock on Rozier. On top of it all, Stevens doesn’t run a traditional point guard. Different guys are starting possessions all the time. Even when Kyrie was in the lineup, when everyone was healthy he played off the ball a lot. That should happen even more with Hayward healthy plus the leaps Brown and Tatum have already taken. I just don’t buy the narrative that Kyrie needs to be the only hero and will sacrifice the team for that. Kyrie left Cleveland (speculatively speaking) because he didn’t want to be in LeBron’s shadow, but that doesn’t mean he necessarily needed to be the sole man on top like LeBron. He just didn’t want to be the subordinate anymore - wanted his due. He’s pretty cerebral, he understands how this stuff works. You can’t win on your own; he wants other star players but he wants to just be treated on the same level which he’d never get with LeBron. He gets that here. |
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