2017-18 Celtics Season Thread

I agree with most of that but how can you say, "why has his value changed"? You are correct in one way as he is the same player but guys who excel in the playoffs always draw attention regardless the sport. Happens all the time. Do you really think he isn't opening eyes that had looked over him in the past? It is like he is show casing his value. I hope you are right and he is a Celtic for a long time as I see him being our Draymond Green but if he keeps doing what he is then the price is going up.

If he costs the Celtics 20 million how do you keep him long term with Kyrie at 30-35, Hayward and Horford at 63 come 2019? That would 113-118 for those 4. Add Brown and Tatum and you are at about 130 or so for your top 6, does that leave enough to fill out the bench? I don't think so. Even if you get Smart for 15 it is going to be hard, 12 would be a nice figure but it still makes it hard LT. Then in 2020 Horfords deal ends but you have to sign Brown, do you want to resign Al? This is why I said keeping Smart LT will be hard, yes his contract will work well in balancing a trade but still you aren't keeping the player.

I also fully expect the ownership to pay thru the nose to keep this team together but there are limits. Next year shouldn't be a problem but once they sign Kyrie for around 35 in 2019 then the problems begin. Will Kyrie take 30? That would help but even then it is going to be hard to keep the band together.

Regarding Smart and his value, maybe I’ve just watched too much of him. I can’t say what other people didn’t know. However, he’s done nothing new. He’s been great the way he always has been

I'll admit that I feel silly for even starting that discussion a few months ago at this point.

That said, simply playing devil's advocate, I think the one way you could still have the discussion is if you want to argue that LeBron's NBA is much better than Jordan's was. Given the leaps and bounds in analytics and evolution in how the game is played (e.g., things like feeding the big man in the post are dead/the corner 3 is king), you could say the gap between teams has significantly narrowed (even if there are still clear best teams in the league in the Rockets and Warriors). Honestly, is it really possible for one player to impose his will on the game now like Jordan used to? I'm no NBA expert at this point, but I wonder whether prime Michael would still be able to come in and just will his team to championships out of sheer refusal to fail to do so the way he did in his prime.

Like I said, devil's advocate on that - I'd take Jordan and not feel bad about it, especially relative to his era.

So let me get this right, first I was cherry picking data, your words. Thing is the data backs up what I said 100%. I can't even believe what you're trying to say. It makes no sense. You get teams can defensively game plan too right? You get that the refs allow you to play more physical in the playoffs right? It's like you simply forget the saying defense wins championships. The reason is that the single biggest difference in the playoffs is that refs allow you to play more physical than in the regular season. Rip that is a fact, you can't debate that.

What we are currently watching isn't because the Celtics have more options to run the offense through. Just had to say I had to laugh when you forget Horford, you know the guy going off this year, when talking about prior years.  Right now it's all about ball movement and attacking mis-matches, and the fact they aren't running the offense through anyone. When they play hero ball they struggle, when they play team ball they can't be stopped. 

It's like you didn't watch the Celtics all year. Irving played with Horford,  Tatum, Brown and Rozier all year and they never played like this. Did you not see Irving basically play like Thomas all year? He's a score first PG, that would kill the teams ball movement by litterally playing iso ball for long stretches every game. He spent his career playing next to LeBron, his job was to score first and be a secondary shot creator. LeBron ran the offense and that's the perfect role for Irving. The problem is the Celtics don't have a LeBron to allow Irving to just do what he does. We also have a much more complete and deep team. Its not just 3 good players like the Cavs had. That's why Rozier has been key, he plays very little iso ball, always runs our offense and is more than willing to also give the ball up even when he's on fire. Rozier hasn't once in the playoffs gone down and just took a shot 3 straight times down the court without anyone else touching the ball, something Irving did every game. Again this isn't Rozier is better than Irving, he's not. Rozier is better at running this offense given the talent we currently have. His game mixes with Horford, Brown and Tatum better than Irvings does.

Like I've said ten plus times now Irving could get better, but we have seen zero proof that he is willing to play team ball for a full game. At the same time he'll never be Rozier in the open court. He'll never be the rebounder Rozier is, which is key to Rozier setting our tempo. He gets the ball and takes off. There is no other player getting the rebound and then having to find Irving. Which gives the team time to adjust. Rozier better D means move misses which helps our tempo.

Rip how can you know Irving will run the offense better than Rozier? We've literally seen zero proof in his career that he can ever pass first and shoot second. What we have seen is that Scary Terry completely changed the teams offense and made it even better. 

I don't get your example with Baynes. You get Stevens has done that for the last 5 years right? He's always used bigs on the three point line to draw out other teams bigs from the paint to open it up. KO did that for 4 years and it never increased our offense in the playoffs. The only surprising thing is Baynes making them at such a high rate. Then again we've seen Johnson do the samething in the past.

You don't buy the narrative that Irving has to be the main scorer, ok. Where's the proof? He left Cleveland so he can be the man that leads a team and gets credit for when a team wins. His play this year shows just that. Maybe he can change, but we have seen zero proof that he will. He's always been a score first PG and that's not what this team needs. Unless this team is going to completely change the way it runs its offense and that just won't happen.

In theory you're correct, but there are limits. This team has so much talent, you simply can't do that. The teams maxed out on cap space and Tatum and Brown will get max deals. That's 5 max contracts, nevermind if you pay Rozier or Smart. Something needs to give. Then add in the bench players, your looking at tax bills like we've never seen before. Nevermind we have more high picks coming up and if we hit, that's another player  or players to pay. Good problem to have, but it's a problem long-term. 

Lol I just liked my new Rip Hamilton nickname

I will comment on playoff game plans in general though. When you play a team in a series that’s your entire focus and weaknesses get exposed IF you have the ability to expose them. It makes no difference if you can identify a teams weakness(es) if you don’t have the personnel to exploit them.


This Celtics team can attack teams defensive weaknesses, previous Stevens teams couldn’t. This team can exploit other teams on offense because they have the personnel to do so whereas the other teams didn’t. I can go into example but I think they are clear.

None of the teams we’ve played thus far can stop the Celtics on offense because we can run 1-5 with good offensive players and we always have at least one matchup we can abuse, usually more. That hasn’t been the case before and we don’t play the regular season the same way (to the degree anyways) for a myriad of reasons.

I’m so bummed. Not cuz of the talent implications (I feel pretty good about the Kings pick next year). But I really wanted to see a news story, or some grainy YouTube video, about a naked street-dancing guy wearing only a C’s hat. I’d just nod to myself, with a wry smile, and say “well-played, sir” under my breath.

Let's just hope the 76's don't get number one overall with the new lottery formula next year. Otherwise it should be still top 10 hopefully, even with the Kings picking number 2 overall this year.

I blame the LeBron 4 day recovery break for talking about the future instead of the playoffs so I’ll continue.

From a future long term salary structure and trying to keep the team together, the pick being delayed a year is nice. Assuming, they get a great player there, it pushes his time back a year and next season minutes would be very limited regardless of his position. Obviously, you take the player when you can get him and this is a great draft for bigs so it’s not perfect but just from salary stand point. Also, it would be great if Memphis continues their slide for a couple years and we don’t get that pick in 2019 but at least a year later, as long as it’s still a high lottery pick when we get it.


Kyrie - free agent in 2019. (Max extension)

Horford - can be a free agent after 2019 but at 33 will take his 30m option and be a free agent in 2020 at 34. He will no longer be a max player even though I expect him to be basically the same guy. 2020 onward tho he’s no longer max.

Hayward can be a free agent in 2020, but at 30 it’s questionable if he will opt out of 34m depends on a lot of things. Let’s just assume he is also maxed, but I question if it will be 4 years again...

Jaylen Brown extension eligible in 2020, but 2021 is more likely

Tatum is extension eligible in 2021 but 2022 is more likely.


Max guys by year (year used is start of league year):

2018: Hayward and Horford

2019: Hayward, Horford and Kyrie

2020: Hayward, Kyrie (I’m assuming Horford is still here but on a much less than max deal).

2021: Hayward, Kyrie and Jaylen

2022: Hayward, Kyrie, Jaylen and Tatum

2023: Hayward, Kyrie, Jaylen and Tatum

After this point Hayward and Kyrie’s second contrasts would end. Hayward maybe prior, but he definitely wouldn’t be a max guy again; Kyrie is young enough that he could be online for another one. This is also when the number 2 pick in next years draft would get maxed out.


Over the next 6 years only the last 2 look like times they need 4 max contracts. Two of the years there are only 2.

UMass double check my work. Thanks

Anything can happen but the Celtics beating Golden State would be one of biggest upsets in sports history at the time it happened. Not USA beating Russia in Lake Placid big but more improbably than Patriots over the Rams or cough Giants over the undefeated Pats.

 Yes beating GS is a ridiculous thought but when the playoffs started the Celtics not only had no Kyrie they didn't  have Smart either so I didn't think they would get out of the first round. Then they beat a Philly team that had only 1 loss in their previous 21 games and some were putting them in the finals. That was with Brown tweaking his hamstring. Now they look like they will dethrone the king and actually get to the finals, how improbable has all of it been. I am not sure of exactly how many but hasn't Vegas had then as the underdog in just about every game?
 
 As crazy as it sounds the C's actually match up well with GS. My thoughts on each series has been that I would be happy if they won 2 games and if they finish the job by beating Cleveland I will feel the same way about the finals. Win 2 games and make it a good series and I am thrilled with this post season.