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3/29-4/1 Red Sox @ Rays Series Thread
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Post by huskies15 on Mar 30, 2018 7:55:24 GMT -5
Pumped for Price today, and maybe the bats put up a 10 spot as a response. Let's go
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 30, 2018 8:00:50 GMT -5
None of this surprises me, especially in the heat of the moment, but man people are harsh with their criticisms of Cora. It’s the guys first game. Great managers aren’t perfect, especially from day one. Great managers/coaches/players all make adjustments. Great managers make those adjustments and manage their people. Let’s see how he responds. If he keeps making the same mistakes with the same people over and over then there’s a problem. If not, then there isn’t.
The “we’ve seen Joe Kelley suck for 3 years” excuse, works when you’re some idiot sitting on your couch but the new manager can’t walk in with that attitude of prejudging his players if he wants to have the respect of them. Maybe they talked about this stuff this Spring and tried to work on how to regain yourself after losing a couple hitters... if they did and the first game the situation comes up and you give him the hook then you’re a scared panicked manager. Point is you don’t know crap on day one... sit back and watch.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 30, 2018 8:03:27 GMT -5
Now this kind of annoys me. The Sox could have traded Joe Kelly this off-season and signed Neshek. The problem is that they thought Joe Kelly was reliable.
You could have been under the 237 if you traded Kelly and signed Neshek.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 30, 2018 8:07:04 GMT -5
Probably. But I had no problem with Sale leaving after 91 pitches. It was the right move.You say that rather casually. Does taking Sale to 105 - 110 pitches in this game create a measurable detriment in some other part of the season? Is this knowable? If not, how can one claim pulling him is "right" with any measure of certainty? I mean, it's really silly to overwork your ace because you're worried the bullpen might blow a four run lead. It's a four run lead. Even a bad bullpen is going to close that game out most of the time.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 30, 2018 8:10:29 GMT -5
Now this kind of annoys me. The Sox could have traded Joe Kelly this off-season and signed Neshek. The problem is that they thought Joe Kelly was reliable. You could have been under the 237 if you traded Kelly and signed Neshek. Yeah, 37 year old Pat Neshek, who's not really even that good good (yes, I know he had a good ERA last year), would totally have saved the Red Sox's now obviously doomed season. Get a grip people. It was one game.
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Post by patford on Mar 30, 2018 8:44:51 GMT -5
Kelly can be a useful piece. He can even be effective in high leverage situations. The mistake Cora made was leaving him in when it was obvious he didn't have it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 30, 2018 8:48:41 GMT -5
Also, Cora indicated after the game that due to Kimbrels abbreviated spring training they were going to bring him along slowly. If you have a plan like that, you don’t let the heat of the moment, in game 1, distract you from it. Kimbrel barely pitched this spring. It’s easy for us to forget that.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 30, 2018 8:52:17 GMT -5
Also, Cora indicated after the game that due to Kimbrels abbreviated spring training they were going to bring him along slowly. If you have a plan like that, you don’t let the heat of the moment, in game 1, distract you from it. Kimbrel barely pitched this spring. It’s easy for us to forget that. Yes, this is a good point. Kimbrel isn't stretched all the way out, and they are intentionally making sure Sale isn't overburdened early in the season. And, it's not like it was a one or two-run game when the eight started - with a four-run lead, there isn't even a reason to have Kimbrel even stretching. It would be insane to try to get someone in his situation warm so fast in the first game of the season. What better options than Kelly and Smith are there with a four-run lead in the eighth inning? Maybe you could argue Barnes, but that seems like hindsight. They brought Kelly in with a four-run lead in the eighth inning and he torched the entire game within 29 pitches. There's no way that's the manager's fault.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 30, 2018 9:27:01 GMT -5
Now this kind of annoys me. The Sox could have traded Joe Kelly this off-season and signed Neshek. The problem is that they thought Joe Kelly was reliable. You could have been under the 237 if you traded Kelly and signed Neshek. Yeah, 37 year old Pat Neshek, who's not really even that good good (yes, I know he had a good ERA last year), would totally have saved the Red Sox's now obviously doomed season. Get a grip people. It was one game. Neshek is better than Kelly. All for 4 plus million more AAV wise.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 30, 2018 9:32:50 GMT -5
Yeah, 37 year old Pat Neshek, who's not really even that good good (yes, I know he had a good ERA last year), would totally have saved the Red Sox's now obviously doomed season. Get a grip people. It was one game. Neshek is better than Kelly. All for 4 plus million more AAV wise. Neshek and Kelly have pretty much the same projections. All for 4 plus million less.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 30, 2018 9:34:55 GMT -5
Neshek is better than Kelly. All for 4 plus million more AAV wise. Neshek and Kelly have pretty much the same projections. All for 4 plus million less. Would anyone ever feel like Kelly is reliable enough to live up to those projections? Neshek has been reliable for years. He's more proven than Kelly.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 30, 2018 9:39:35 GMT -5
Neshek and Kelly have pretty much the same projections. All for 4 plus million less. Would anyone ever feel like Kelly is reliable enough to live up to those projections? Neshek has been reliable for years. He's more proven than Kelly. The projections aren't that lofty for either of them. Whatever. It's easy to criticize a guy with a 108.00 ERA.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 9:40:25 GMT -5
Every team in baseball is going to lose games it should win, even the big, bad Yankees. I’m not worried about the loss, but I’m curious to see how this team responds to being punched in the gut.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 30, 2018 9:41:53 GMT -5
Neshek has been reliable for years. He's more proven than Kelly. 1. Pat Neshek has a very, very extensive injury history, and is 37. Those are good reasons to not to have signed him. 2. Pat Neshek is currently out with a back injury. So he would not have helped yesterday.
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Post by Coreno on Mar 30, 2018 9:42:20 GMT -5
Man, the hot takes were a-flyin' last night.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 30, 2018 9:46:27 GMT -5
If Sale had pitched the 7th then Barnes the 8th, maybe a different outcome today. Probably. But I had no problem with Sale leaving after 91 pitches. It was the right move. Cora shouldn't have let Kelly stay in for Gomez. He knew Kelly had zero control. He doesn't know at that point that Smith has no control. By time Span came up with the bases loaded and 2 outs, Kimbrel should have been in the game. Cora talked about using Kimbrel to get key outs. There it was. Maybe Kimbrel gets wild, but his control was fine last year and if you're going to lose the game I'd rather lose with their best when it's on the line, so unless Kimbrel wasn't available I don't understand why he didn't come in. And Poyner warming up made no sense if they weren't going to use him. I do think the pen will have issues. This isn't a reaction to today's game. This is what I thought going in. Our pen was too perfect last year - all the extra inning wins. The law of averages is crazy. I think the core talent will play far better than last year but won't be as efficient as last year's team, so I see a team that will give away wins, but is talented enough to still win 95 games although these kinds of games are the difference between the division and the wild card game - not that it really mattered last year. In a way this team's talent level reminds me of the 2003 team who also suffered a devastating opening day loss to Tampa. Cora said after the game they only wanted to bring Kimbrel into a clean inning. Given his spring, I can buy that. He also said they didn't want to bring Poyner into that spot for his major league debut. On that one, I have the same response as you - why on earth was he the one warming then? I'm an optimist, so I'm going to chalk this up to Cora freezing in his managerial debut and hope that he learns from it. This is primarily on Kelly and Smith for failing to execute, but Cora does bear some part of the blame for how he managed the 'pen here. Still, he's gotta find out which of the 8th inning candidates are going to do a job in a spot like this. Maybe the next 8th inning opportunity goes to Barnes and he learns from it. We'll have to wait and see.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 30, 2018 9:49:23 GMT -5
I'm an optimist, so I'm going to chalk this up to Cora freezing in his managerial debut and hope that he learns from it. This is primarily on Kelly and Smith for failing to execute, but Cora does bear some part of the blame for how he managed the 'pen here. Still, he's gotta find out which of the 8th inning candidates are going to do a job in a spot like this. Maybe the next 8th inning opportunity goes to Barnes and he learns from it. We'll have to wait and see. So, if there's a hot-takey takeaway from last night, it's not that Cora mismanaged the bullpen - it's that the bullpen, in front of Kimbrel, is worrisome.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 30, 2018 9:56:00 GMT -5
None of this surprises me, especially in the heat of the moment, but man people are harsh with their criticisms of Cora. It’s the guys first game. Great managers aren’t perfect, especially from day one. Great managers/coaches/players all make adjustments. Great managers make those adjustments and manage their people. Let’s see how he responds. If he keeps making the same mistakes with the same people over and over then there’s a problem. If not, then there isn’t. The “we’ve seen Joe Kelley suck for 3 years” excuse, works when you’re some idiot sitting on your couch but the new manager can’t walk in with that attitude of prejudging his players if he wants to have the respect of them. Maybe they talked about this stuff this Spring and tried to work on how to regain yourself after losing a couple hitters... if they did and the first game the situation comes up and you give him the hook then you’re a scared panicked manager. Point is you don’t know crap on day one... sit back and watch. True. Hopefully the one thing Cora did learn yesterday is that if Kelly doesn't have it, he really doesn't have it. Sometimes he does and is very good but when he doesn't then pull him fast and move on. Yesterday gives him the ammunition to do just that the next time.
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Post by sibbysisti on Mar 30, 2018 9:59:19 GMT -5
None of this surprises me, especially in the heat of the moment, but man people are harsh with their criticisms of Cora. It’s the guys first game. Great managers aren’t perfect, especially from day one. Great managers/coaches/players all make adjustments. Great managers make those adjustments and manage their people. Let’s see how he responds. If he keeps making the same mistakes with the same people over and over then there’s a problem. If not, then there isn’t. The “we’ve seen Joe Kelley suck for 3 years” excuse, works when you’re some idiot sitting on your couch but the new manager can’t walk in with that attitude of prejudging his players if he wants to have the respect of them. Maybe they talked about this stuff this Spring and tried to work on how to regain yourself after losing a couple hitters... if they did and the first game the situation comes up and you give him the hook then you’re a scared panicked manager. Point is you don’t know crap on day one... sit back and watch. You hit the nail on the head. It was Cora's first day on the job in the regular season .........and it showed. First day as a manager and already making rookie mistakes. We were led to believe that things would be different. But what's different about failing to bring in your best pitcher with the game on the line? I hope he improves.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 30, 2018 10:01:06 GMT -5
Hopefully the one thing Cora did learn yesterday is that if Kelly doesn't have it, he really doesn't have it. Again, he threw 29 pitches. I know it felt like a long time, but in terms of getting another pitcher ready to warm up to pitch, it was very much not a long time. Also, it wasn't a particularly high-leverage situation when he was brought in, either. I can't think of a better example of "every time a reliever gives up a run, it's the manager's fault" than Kelly (and Smith) yesterday.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 30, 2018 10:05:00 GMT -5
I have read that Bogey made a base running gaffe in the game but can't remember it. Anybody want to fill me in? Funny, or maybe not so, that he had a great game but it is overlooked because of the 8th inning debacle. I think he is going to put it together this year and man doesn't Devers just crush the ball. Mookie almost put the first pitch of the season over the fence and Nunez must feel better about his knee today. Just a few positive thoughts to change the mind set.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 30, 2018 10:06:58 GMT -5
I'm an optimist, so I'm going to chalk this up to Cora freezing in his managerial debut and hope that he learns from it. This is primarily on Kelly and Smith for failing to execute, but Cora does bear some part of the blame for how he managed the 'pen here. Still, he's gotta find out which of the 8th inning candidates are going to do a job in a spot like this. Maybe the next 8th inning opportunity goes to Barnes and he learns from it. We'll have to wait and see. So, if there's a hot-takey takeaway from last night, it's not that Cora mismanaged the bullpen - it's that the bullpen, in front of Kimbrel, is worrisome. The bridge to Kimbrel is definitely worrisome. To me it's kind of like relying on Hanley Ramirez as "The Guy" in the lineup rather than signing JD Martinez. The parallel is relying on Carson Smith as "The Guy" to be the high leverage bridge to Kimbrel. Carson Smith might be just fine when all is said and done, but the safety net really isn't there, so if Smith falters, you are crossing your fingers that Kelly (since when has he EVER been in anybody's circle of trust?) or Barnes become that guy. With Hanley, if he falters you have a consistent low ceiling high floor option in Moreland who is better defensively and Hanley isn't the guy who has to be "The Guy" in the lineup. It's clearly Martinez. If Hanley rakes it's a huge bonus. But with the bullpen situation when the Sox let Reed go they don't have that guy who is reliable, not that I blame the Sox for letting Reed go. I totally get why they chose to leave the pen as is and hope for the best, knowing that the pen is the easiest and cheapest thing to fix come July - and they'd be able to do so without going over $237 million - which I think is a much harder cap than previously realized, because if it wasn't then the Sox should have found another more stable reliable 8th inning option rather than relying on a guy on the comeback trail from TJS. Given that they don't seem to want to go over, I'm fine with the way they're handling it, but there will be growing pains like last night's game, ugly demoralizing losses, games that slip out of the win column and into the loss column. I suspect this team will have these issues for awhile. I think when the Sox win, it will be very authoritative and impressive and when they lose it's going to be the what if game? I doubt the Sox get their butts kicked that much. Too much talent on this team. I was curious, if Bradley got on, if and who Cora would have pinch-hit for Vazquez with. He had Moreland on the bench. It never did get to that unfortunately.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 30, 2018 10:11:55 GMT -5
Hopefully the one thing Cora did learn yesterday is that if Kelly doesn't have it, he really doesn't have it. Again, he threw 29 pitches. I know it felt like a long time, but in terms of getting another pitcher ready to warm up to pitch, it was very much not a long time. Also, it wasn't a particularly high-leverage situation when he was brought in, either. I can't think of a better example of "every time a reliever gives up a run, it's the manager's fault" than Kelly (and Smith) yesterday. True and it did feel like an eternity. The game was flying by and then it ground to a halt. I think after the 2nd walk it was pretty obvious Kelly wasn't going to right the ship. I think Gomez should have faced Smith at that point - so that Smith was coming in without the bases being loaded where he had no margin for error. I think Cora did stay with Kelly 1 batter too long. Smith might have faltered anyways, but by pitch 20 it was pretty obvious Kelly wasn't going to get the job done.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 30, 2018 10:16:57 GMT -5
Hopefully the one thing Cora did learn yesterday is that if Kelly doesn't have it, he really doesn't have it. Again, he threw 29 pitches. I know it felt like a long time, but in terms of getting another pitcher ready to warm up to pitch, it was very much not a long time. Also, it wasn't a particularly high-leverage situation when he was brought in, either. I can't think of a better example of "every time a reliever gives up a run, it's the manager's fault" than Kelly (and Smith) yesterday. True, true and true. But if my memory still serves me well Kelly has a history of getting off to a rough start and not being able to pull out of it. I am a Kelly fan, or I was, I have believed he could be a dominant reliever and even thought he should have got another chance to start. If I knew more about all the different stats you guys use maybe I could find proof rather than my memory but from what I have seen he either has it or he doesn't. Maybe in the future you have someone closer to being ready when he is on the hill. Someone should have been up after the double and maybe a mound visit to slow things down so he doesn't get the chance to walk the bases loaded. Like I said it should be a learning experience and I am sure it was.
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 30, 2018 10:17:20 GMT -5
Every team in baseball is going to lose games it should win, even the big, bad Yankees. I’m not worried about the loss, but I’m curious to see how this team responds to being punched in the gut. I can guarantee you that the Yankees will not blow a 4 run lead in the 8th all season.
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