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7/20-7/22 Red Sox @ Tigers Series Thread
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 21, 2018 23:06:08 GMT -5
We could put him at second or 3rd like we do with Núñez Iglesias' game tonight was an outlier. He has an OPS well below .700. He's hardly an offensive juggernaut. What can he really do that somebody like Lin can't? Are you hoping the Sox can recoup the deal they made for Jake Peavy? Otherwise I can't see why Iglesias would be some sort of must get? If they need an infielder it would be a 2b like Dozier. Because Dozier can only play second and Iglesias is a better fielder than Lin. Otherwise we’re still going to have this problem on days Devers or Bogaerts are out.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 21, 2018 23:29:22 GMT -5
Iglesias' game tonight was an outlier. He has an OPS well below .700. He's hardly an offensive juggernaut. What can he really do that somebody like Lin can't? Are you hoping the Sox can recoup the deal they made for Jake Peavy? Otherwise I can't see why Iglesias would be some sort of must get? If they need an infielder it would be a 2b like Dozier. Because Dozier can only play second and Iglesias is a better fielder than Lin. Otherwise we’re still going to have this problem on days Devers or Bogaerts are out. I guess I still don't understand the fascination with Iglesias. If Dozier plays 2b that frees Holt to play SS on the days that Xander takes off. I know Holt isn't as good defensively as Iglesias but he's a better offensive player. If Xander was out for an extended time you could go with Lin. I don't see how Iglesias is better than Lin plus the player cost to get Iglesias in a deal. I don't see how he moves the meter much if at all. Iglesias is a good fielder but so is Lin who is likely to get on base at a higher rate if given enough plate appearances. And the Sox still have Nunez to play 3b when Devers need a day. He's more of a natural 3b. He's not really a 2b or a ss. And Lin is also quite capable of manning 3b and even though it's not Holt's best position, he could man it. He wound up being the Sox 3b in the ALDS in 2016. The Red Sox have three needs much more pressing than a utility man: high leverage reliever, backend starter, and 2b. Guess I don't really see why Iglesias would be on a wish list. Particularly when Lin can pretty much do what Iglesias can do but cheaper and without having to trade somebody.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 22, 2018 0:15:52 GMT -5
Swihart is 8/18, 2 2B, 2 BB in July. That's .444 / .500 / .556 if you believe in 20 PA slash lines. He's 1/1, BB when he played the day before. I've always believed that if he got regular PT we'd end up with a catcher we could trade this winter. Or keep, I'm with Tek's evaluation, future all-star catcher. ADD: CVaz has a lower bWAR/fWAR than Nunez. Ah, I see how what I typed is ambiguous. When I said "we'd end up with a catcher we could trade this winter," "a catcher" was meant generically and not as a reference to Swihart. I meant that we'd have three good ones, hence one extra to trade. If I meant what you think I meant, I would have said "we'd be able to trade him this winter."
In fact, trading Leon might well make the most sense. Selling low on CV this winter probably makes just as little sense as selling low on Swihart last winter did. Both CV and Swihart will likely have unrealized upside at the end of the year. Leon, OTOH, seems likely to be a known quantity: terrific pitch caller, good framer, mediocre bat but capable of strange hot streaks. He's good enough to start for some teams and is a terrific backup for a contender, one who will have two years of control left.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2018 0:38:06 GMT -5
Or keep, I'm with Tek's evaluation, future all-star catcher. ADD: CVaz has a lower bWAR/fWAR than Nunez. Ah, I see how what I typed is ambiguous. When I said "we'd end up with a catcher we could trade this winter," "a catcher" was meant generically and not as a reference to Swihart. I meant that we'd have three good ones, hence one extra to trade. If I meant what you think I meant, I would have said "we'd be able to trade him this winter." In fact, trading Leon might well make the most sense. Selling low on CV this winter probably makes just as little sense as selling low on Swihart last winter did. Both CV and Swihart will likely have unrealized upside at the end of the year. Leon, OTOH, seems likely to be a known quantity: terrific pitch caller, good framer, mediocre bat but capable of strange hot streaks. He's good enough to start for some teams and is a terrific backup for a contender, one who will have two years of control left.
I actually don't know what to think about Vazquez. This should have been his breakout year, instead, he seems to have nosedived in pretty much every facet of his game. The one I would have thought least likely is the pitch framing. He seems to lunge a lot which is causing strikes to be called balls. I'm guessing his pop times are also down significantly but, just visually, I don't think it's arm strength, I think it's slower mechanics.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 6:36:18 GMT -5
This is the danger of playing this guy in the outfield. He's not durable. Judging by the attitudes of everyone, it’s nothing serious. Day-to-day. The dude slammed into a wall. Anyone would be sore. I know it was a baseball play, and anyone could be sore afterwards after that collision, but this guy seems to be injured a lot. He's the most important bat in this lineup. I just wish he'd DH full time and let someone else be the backup outfielder.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 6:44:17 GMT -5
So Tyler Thornburg has appeared in 5 games. He has been scored on in 3 of these games. It's early, but the Sox aren't in a good position to carry Thornburg if he continues to struggle. He has options and they should option him if he does continue to struggle.
The Sox definitely need another arm in the bullpen though. It's kind of weird that this team has 3 critical holes on this team and is arguably having it's best season ever. 2nd base, starting pitcher, and bullpen. It'll be even more clear if they need another starter after Pomeranz's next start too.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2018 7:02:52 GMT -5
Judging by the attitudes of everyone, it’s nothing serious. Day-to-day. The dude slammed into a wall. Anyone would be sore. I know it was a baseball play, and anyone could be sore afterwards after that collision, but this guy seems to be injured a lot. He's the most important bat in this lineup. I just wish he'd DH full time and let someone else be the backup outfielder. He's played in 93 of the Sox 100 games. You will need to get used to it, just yesterday Cora said he plans to use Pierce at 1B or DH when there's a lefty starter. I'm guessing that means a lot of DH time with JBJ or Benni taking a seat.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 8:15:45 GMT -5
I know it was a baseball play, and anyone could be sore afterwards after that collision, but this guy seems to be injured a lot. He's the most important bat in this lineup. I just wish he'd DH full time and let someone else be the backup outfielder. He's played in 93 of the Sox 100 games. You will need to get used to it, just yesterday Cora said he plans to use Pierce at 1B or DH when there's a lefty starter. I'm guessing that means a lot of DH time with JBJ or Benni taking a seat. It'll be like walking on glass when I see him play out there, but you're right. Just going to have to get used to it.
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Post by p23w on Jul 22, 2018 8:53:55 GMT -5
Keep in mind, this Juggernaut offense scored ONE run in 18 innings against the Detroit Tigers. Also, while bullpen help is topical, what is needed (IMHO) is a hard throwing RHSP. Dombroski whiffed on Harvey. Wheeler could be had cheaply, Fiers has grit. If Wright does not come back "in form" we could very well be a paper tiger. Best record in MLB notwithstanding.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 8:57:21 GMT -5
Keep in mind, this Juggernaut offense scored ONE run in 18 innings against the Detroit Tigers. Also, while bullpen help is topical, what is needed (IMHO) is a hard throwing RHSP. Dombroski whiffed on Harvey. Wheeler could be had cheaply, Fiers has grit. If Wright does not come back "in form" we could very well be a paper tiger. Best record in MLB notwithstanding. Matt Harvey is still out there for the taking....
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cdj
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Posts: 14,541
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Post by cdj on Jul 22, 2018 9:24:54 GMT -5
Keep in mind, this Juggernaut offense scored ONE run in 18 innings against the Detroit Tigers. Also, while bullpen help is topical, what is needed (IMHO) is a hard throwing RHSP. Dombroski whiffed on Harvey. Wheeler could be had cheaply, Fiers has grit. If Wright does not come back "in form" we could very well be a paper tiger. Best record in MLB notwithstanding. ....it’s been 2 games..... They won 1 of them....... Wheeler could be had cheaply??? Fat chance. Harvey is still out there. Teams are allowed to go cold for a little bit over 162 games. It happens.
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Post by soxfan511 on Jul 22, 2018 11:20:48 GMT -5
For me, I have more confidence in a return to form than you. On the other hand, I'm pretty squarely in the Brasier for the 7th inning Kelly replacement corner. Game point, Swihart looked decent. A couple games like this could make CVaz a potential trade chip. ADDL Detroit's color man, Kirk Gibson was impressed with Brasier, "good stuff" "excellent slider". You think Thornburg is going to return to form this season? Do you feel like you can really count on that? I'm hopeful that the more time passes and he's healthy that perhaps he can be what he once was, but I don't think the track record of guys with TOS is that positive. But I can keep an open mind on that. I just can say don't worry - he'll the Thornburg of 2016 this season. Brasier has looked good. I wonder what happens when Pomeranz is activated. Does he get optioned? He certainly hasn't done anything to deserve to be optioned. Nor has Workman or Velazquez. I wonder how they're going to play it. I'm not ready to declare Brasier a high leverage relief option, but I'd like to keep seeing what he's doing. If Soria or Britton are dealt elsewhere (in Britton's case that's very likely) then Brasier should get a longer look. If it comes to do acquiring Fernando Rodney or giving Brasier a chance, it's a no-brainer for me - give Brasier a shot. Thornberg is toast. He used to throw 96-97 now he throws 92-93. Once you lose your velocity it’s very tough to Reinvent yourself
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 22, 2018 11:29:10 GMT -5
I know this doesn't go here but the British Open right now is epic!!
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 11:30:22 GMT -5
You think Thornburg is going to return to form this season? Do you feel like you can really count on that? I'm hopeful that the more time passes and he's healthy that perhaps he can be what he once was, but I don't think the track record of guys with TOS is that positive. But I can keep an open mind on that. I just can say don't worry - he'll the Thornburg of 2016 this season. Brasier has looked good. I wonder what happens when Pomeranz is activated. Does he get optioned? He certainly hasn't done anything to deserve to be optioned. Nor has Workman or Velazquez. I wonder how they're going to play it. I'm not ready to declare Brasier a high leverage relief option, but I'd like to keep seeing what he's doing. If Soria or Britton are dealt elsewhere (in Britton's case that's very likely) then Brasier should get a longer look. If it comes to do acquiring Fernando Rodney or giving Brasier a chance, it's a no-brainer for me - give Brasier a shot. Thornberg is toast. He used to throw 96-97 now he throws 92-93. Once you lose your velocity it’s very tough to Reinvent yourself Makes me scratch my head that Workman is still getting results despite his lack of velocity. His velocity is even worse than Thornburgs. Well there was this before today's game-
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Post by dmaineah on Jul 22, 2018 11:32:00 GMT -5
He should go work on it in AAA
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Post by incandenza on Jul 22, 2018 11:49:27 GMT -5
Or keep, I'm with Tek's evaluation, future all-star catcher. ADD: CVaz has a lower bWAR/fWAR than Nunez. Ah, I see how what I typed is ambiguous. When I said "we'd end up with a catcher we could trade this winter," "a catcher" was meant generically and not as a reference to Swihart. I meant that we'd have three good ones, hence one extra to trade. If I meant what you think I meant, I would have said "we'd be able to trade him this winter."
In fact, trading Leon might well make the most sense. Selling low on CV this winter probably makes just as little sense as selling low on Swihart last winter did. Both CV and Swihart will likely have unrealized upside at the end of the year. Leon, OTOH, seems likely to be a known quantity: terrific pitch caller, good framer, mediocre bat but capable of strange hot streaks. He's good enough to start for some teams and is a terrific backup for a contender, one who will have two years of control left.
What kind of return could you expect to get for a backup catcher, and would it have greater value than going into spring training with three catchers as a hedge against injury?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 22, 2018 12:08:38 GMT -5
So Tyler Thornburg has appeared in 5 games. He has been scored on in 3 of these games. It's early, but the Sox aren't in a good position to carry Thornburg if he continues to struggle. He has options and they should option him if he does continue to struggle. The Sox definitely need another arm in the bullpen though. It's kind of weird that this team has 3 critical holes on this team and is arguably having it's best season ever. 2nd base, starting pitcher, and bullpen. It'll be even more clear if they need another starter after Pomeranz's next start too. See the bullpen thread for that "need."
But I don't get the "we critically need a starter" bit, either. Brian Johnson's numbers have been exploded by his awful run as a reliever before he figured out how to warm up properly (it seems), and he still has an MLB-average xwOBA (adjusted for his low % of balls hit to center). He's actually been on the good side of the 3rd / 4th starter border so far, and maybe even a solid #3, plenty good enough to be the 4th starter for a contender. One of the reasons we've been insanely great is that he's actually the #7 guy.
Pomeranz just needs to be OK. That seems likely right now.
Oh, and how about Velazquez? Adjusted xwOBA:
.326 Johnson (including the terrible relief)
.334 Tanaka .336 Velazquez .338 Gray
Ranks of Sox starters:
Sale 2 E-Rod 24 (better than average #2; Severino's 26th) Porcello 53 (better than average #3) Price 84 (better than average #4, but worse than Johnson and Velazquez. Seriously.)
Wright would be 61st, but that includes the game he pitched with the bad knee and got destroyed.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2018 12:30:39 GMT -5
You think Thornburg is going to return to form this season? Do you feel like you can really count on that? I'm hopeful that the more time passes and he's healthy that perhaps he can be what he once was, but I don't think the track record of guys with TOS is that positive. But I can keep an open mind on that. I just can say don't worry - he'll the Thornburg of 2016 this season. Brasier has looked good. I wonder what happens when Pomeranz is activated. Does he get optioned? He certainly hasn't done anything to deserve to be optioned. Nor has Workman or Velazquez. I wonder how they're going to play it. I'm not ready to declare Brasier a high leverage relief option, but I'd like to keep seeing what he's doing. If Soria or Britton are dealt elsewhere (in Britton's case that's very likely) then Brasier should get a longer look. If it comes to do acquiring Fernando Rodney or giving Brasier a chance, it's a no-brainer for me - give Brasier a shot. Thornberg is toast. He used to throw 96-97 now he throws 92-93. Once you lose your velocity it’s very tough to Reinvent yourself Thornburg velocity: 2012 93.1 2013 92.7 2014 94.6 2015 92.9 2016 95.1 2018 93.7
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2018 12:35:43 GMT -5
Anyone who hears when they may start the game, please let the rest of us with mlb.tv watching the "The event is in weather delay" screen know because it would be an absolute crime to let us watch NESN.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 22, 2018 12:37:43 GMT -5
I'm just watching BAL/TOR to see if Britton gets some action, or how Happ does.
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danr
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Post by danr on Jul 22, 2018 12:40:57 GMT -5
From looking at weather.com, it appears there will be some rain until around 4 PM EDT.
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Post by dmaineah on Jul 22, 2018 13:03:01 GMT -5
Anyone who hears when they may start the game, please let the rest of us with mlb.tv watching the "The event is in weather delay" screen know because it would be an absolute crime to let us watch NESN. MLB network just said 2:45
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2018 13:22:09 GMT -5
Anyone who hears when they may start the game, please let the rest of us with mlb.tv watching the "The event is in weather delay" screen know because it would be an absolute crime to let us watch NESN. If NESN is available on cable, yes it would be, particularly since the game is in Detroit.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jul 22, 2018 13:33:25 GMT -5
Because Dozier can only play second and Iglesias is a better fielder than Lin. Otherwise we’re still going to have this problem on days Devers or Bogaerts are out. I guess I still don't understand the fascination with Iglesias. If Dozier plays 2b that frees Holt to play SS on the days that Xander takes off. I know Holt isn't as good defensively as Iglesias but he's a better offensive player. If Xander was out for an extended time you could go with Lin. I don't see how Iglesias is better than Lin plus the player cost to get Iglesias in a deal. I don't see how he moves the meter much if at all. Iglesias is a good fielder but so is Lin who is likely to get on base at a higher rate if given enough plate appearances. And the Sox still have Nunez to play 3b when Devers need a day. He's more of a natural 3b. He's not really a 2b or a ss. And Lin is also quite capable of manning 3b and even though it's not Holt's best position, he could man it. He wound up being the Sox 3b in the ALDS in 2016. The Red Sox have three needs much more pressing than a utility man: high leverage reliever, backend starter, and 2b. Guess I don't really see why Iglesias would be on a wish list. Particularly when Lin can pretty much do what Iglesias can do but cheaper and without having to trade somebody. Núñez has been awful and Lin is not that good. Lin’s glove is not even close to Iglesias. A strong fielding shortstop like Iglesias is very useful to bring in, because even if Pedroia comes back later in the year, you still have an awesome defensive replacement you can put anywhere. If they get Dozier, then you are still stuck playing Holt or Núñez at short and third.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 22, 2018 13:38:16 GMT -5
Thornberg is toast. He used to throw 96-97 now he throws 92-93. Once you lose your velocity it’s very tough to Reinvent yourself Thornburg velocity: 2012 93.1 2013 92.7 2014 94.6 2015 92.9 2016 95.1 2018 93.7 In fairness 1.5 mph is a little bit of a difference from 2016 to 2018, but Thornburg should still find a way to be really effective at 93 mph still.
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