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Post by jimed14 on Jan 17, 2019 15:06:44 GMT -5
Can we please hold off on whining about the bullpen? The Yankees have had the best bullpen for years. What good did it do them?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2019 15:10:14 GMT -5
For me if you had advanced degrees you'd know players like certainty or the uncertain. Most people are rational and play things safe. Also like other people have said contracts show your standing and respect. Kimbrel taking a one year deal doesn't hit any of those boxes if he has a massive 3 year offer on the table or if he can get a 4th year that would be the 3rd largest reliever contract in history. I could see him settling for a 3 year deal if its the highest AAV in history for a reliever.
I have no idea what Kimbrel is thinking. Yet if it was me, the rest of my earnings would be about my legacy. Setting up big trusts so my kids and many generations after can live off the interest of my great career. If he's smart his next contract can do that. A one year deal just isn't enough and there's always the risk he gets injured and his earning power goes away. He's not Donaldson that got 23 million and can put up a lot more war and get a huge deal next offseason. He's a reliever, a darn good one yet his value is limited compared to a Donaldson.
As to having enough at some point I agree. Just remember athletes get taxed at almost fifty percent and then the agent gets his cut. His 55 million is more like 28 million in his pocket. More than enough for him in his lifetime, yet not really enough for a legacy unless he's crazy frugal.
At the other end you have the Jerry Jones of the world buying 250 million dollar super Yachts. You know because you need to be abble to land two helicopters on your yacht at the same time. Can't have your wife running into your girlfriends.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 17, 2019 15:15:09 GMT -5
Well it sounds like Ottavino is now with the Yankees, so ....... Yikes!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2019 15:18:26 GMT -5
Can we please hold off on whining about the bullpen? The Yankees have had the best bullpen for years. What good did it do them? Nope. Its a huge question mark. I don't care if the Yankees have a better one, I do care if we don't have one that is good enough. The market is set. If no Kimbrel your options are dwindling rather quickly. Heck even if your bring back Kimbrel you could use another Arm to replace Kelly.
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KB24
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Posts: 150
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Post by KB24 on Jan 17, 2019 15:24:14 GMT -5
Well it sounds like Ottavino is now with the Yankees, so ....... Yikes! 3 yrs for 27M when Joe freaking Kelly got 3/25??? I don't understand how Boston didn't make a more enticing offer than that. Ottavino won't even sniff the closer's role in that bullpen. That's disappointing.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 17, 2019 15:27:15 GMT -5
It would be so much of a relief to know what exactly is going on in DD's head. Is he just posturing for a Kimbrel re-sign, or does he really feel like the Sox bullpen is set, sans a minor signing or two? It just doesn't seem like the Sox bullpen is set. IMO, most Sox fans post comments during Red Sox games when the relievers start entering the game, that are negative in tone, and implying that most of the bullpen isn't very reliable -- and for a very good reason. Sox bullpen for last couple of years, aside from Kimbrel in '17, has been very erratic and unpredictable for big portions of each of last few seasons, imo. Does DD truly believe that the bullpen is set, and that help is on the way from the minors? It's been torturing to watch all the good relievers be signed by others, and to watch the Yankees scoop up the last two, arguably, good relievers, while the Sox stand pat (assuming that DD is being truthful about not considering a Kimbrel-size signing.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 17, 2019 15:33:04 GMT -5
Nine mil per year.....Sox couldn't offer even that? Seriously?? Here we were arguing about the merits of Britton, Robertson, and others signing for $12, $13 mil, and yet Sox weren't even going to pony up nine mil for a good reliever. Oh well, life goes on. Least we've got Cora, and maybe he feels like Sox will be fine.
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Post by huskies15 on Jan 17, 2019 16:25:35 GMT -5
Really hoping Lakins and Feltman are impact relievers sooner than later huh?
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Post by kenster on Jan 17, 2019 16:27:47 GMT -5
Outrageous. Not even making a play for a top-notch reliever smacks of the organizational we-are-smarter than you approach. One half of one year of Brasier and alchemist Bannister will continue to turn donuts into gold. Quantity over quality. Reclamation chaff. Let’s see how everybody feels after the pen blows multiple games early. Good idea to overwork the starters after riding them through October to start AND relieve. Umm no can do for 162. Single A Feltman to the rescue? Or the pivot to trade for a lights out reliever? Thank God we have a vaunted prospect pool dripping with can’t miss talent that we can deal for quality. Big eggs in those baskets. Then again, I’m sure the staff will note that “pitch-tipping” is to blame not the sub-par pitcher. Oh wait, Kimbrel is still out there, right? I mean that’s been the plan all along right? Wait him out, right? Then get him for below market value, right. Shhhhhh. No other organization is on to this. Just us. Only our General Manager is capable of such strategic genius. The JD gambit. Brilliant!
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Post by chrisfromnc on Jan 17, 2019 16:48:27 GMT -5
Outrageous. Not even making a play for a top-notch reliever smacks of the organizational we-are-smarter than you approach. One half of one year of Brasier and alchemist Bannister will continue to turn donuts into gold. Quantity over quality. Reclamation chaff. Let’s see how everybody feels after the pen blows multiple games early. Good idea to overwork the starters after riding them through October to start AND relieve. Umm no can do for 162. Single A Feltman to the rescue? Or the pivot to trade for a lights out reliever? Thank God we have a vaunted prospect pool dripping with can’t miss talent that we can deal for quality. Big eggs in those baskets. Then again, I’m sure the staff will note that “pitch-tipping” is to blame not the sub-par pitcher. Oh wait, Kimbrel is still out there, right? I mean that’s been the plan all along right? Wait him out, right? Then get him for below market value, right. Shhhhhh. No other organization is on to this. Just us. Only our General Manager is capable of such strategic genius. The JD gambit. Brilliant! I get it that it’s frustrating to watch the pool of relievers dwindling. I’m not sure why anyone who is a Sox fan wouldn’t be very confident in the ability of Dave Dombrowski to run the club. He just delivered a team that was historically great and has largely the same roster this year. Another not-so-small point is that the off-season is not over yet. You may get Kimbrel, literally the most accomplished reliever available, back on terms that are considerably less expensive than anyone would have thought. I know it’s second nature to second guess the both the strategic and game day decisions of our teams. I just think Sox fans are in a tenuous position when they do that. Recent history shows they are pretty good at baseball.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 17, 2019 17:07:10 GMT -5
Outrageous. Not even making a play for a top-notch reliever smacks of the organizational we-are-smarter than you approach. One half of one year of Brasier and alchemist Bannister will continue to turn donuts into gold. Quantity over quality. Reclamation chaff. Let’s see how everybody feels after the pen blows multiple games early. Good idea to overwork the starters after riding them through October to start AND relieve. Umm no can do for 162. Single A Feltman to the rescue? Or the pivot to trade for a lights out reliever? Thank God we have a vaunted prospect pool dripping with can’t miss talent that we can deal for quality. Big eggs in those baskets. Then again, I’m sure the staff will note that “pitch-tipping” is to blame not the sub-par pitcher. Oh wait, Kimbrel is still out there, right? I mean that’s been the plan all along right? Wait him out, right? Then get him for below market value, right. Shhhhhh. No other organization is on to this. Just us. Only our General Manager is capable of such strategic genius. The JD gambit. Brilliant! This heat of this take has burned my face and I am posting from ICU.
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Post by kenster on Jan 17, 2019 17:11:38 GMT -5
Indeed, they are pretty good at baseball. In light of same, why zero effort to improve the roster? The 246? This team made a FORTUNE on this championship. Who cares about a 10 spot drop in the draft when you are a top tier team? You don’t have to be a baseball genius to see that this is the year they should be ALL IN given all the free agents to be and very little to be excited about in the minors. Management coming off as a little self-satisfied it seems to me. I just don’t see that eye of the tiger. And that is disappointing.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 17, 2019 17:56:24 GMT -5
It's as if people can't be happy with a championship. All season long, everyone bitched about the bullpen and they still won, easily, against the toughest competition in decades. And if you think this is bad, wait until they actually have to rebuild. There is no easy way to do it now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 17, 2019 18:03:16 GMT -5
Indeed, they are pretty good at baseball. In light of same, why zero effort to improve the roster? The 246? This team made a FORTUNE on this championship. Who cares about a 10 spot drop in the draft when you are a top tier team? You don’t have to be a baseball genius to see that this is the year they should be ALL IN given all the free agents to be and very little to be excited about in the minors. Management coming off as a little self-satisfied it seems to me. I just don’t see that eye of the tiger. And that is disappointing. I think it's pretty obvious what's going on. The Red Sox don't want any multi-year deals for a reliever. They see Sale, Bogaerts, JDM, and Porcello reaching free agency after 2019 and Betts and Bradley after 2020 and they want to reset and get under the luxury tax for the 2020 season while trying to re-sign the free agents that they prioritize, which will be very costly. They can't do that if they're committing long-term $ to relievers, even at $8 or $9 million/year. It's going to be a tight squeeze to get under that mark for 2020. I really don't believe that Kimbrel is coming back. It's not out of the realm of possibility, but I doubt it. I think Dombrowski is telling the truth. He's using the word "ancipate" to cover himself but he's made clear he's not anticipating any large expenditures for a reliever and he clarified it to mean long-term deal or huge one year deal. Maybe he used "anticipate" because he doesn't "anticipate" Kimbrel coming back for a year at big $ but wouldn't be adverse to bringing him back under those terms. But with Kimbrel likely getting multi-year offers elsewhere, I doubt he anticipates Kimbrel coming back. So that leaves DDo signing any of Cody Allen, Brad Brach (still think he emerges with a 2 year deal elsewhere), Greg Holland, or even Brad Boxberger (Man, I hope not - he's got no control whatsoever). Plus the possibility of getting a reliever at the deadline although I question if anybody of quality will be available as the pending free agent market isn't as notable as this one's was. But that's why I think Dombrowski is not doing anything - getting under the 2020 tax limit. Everybody thought Dombrowski was getting relief help at the deadline but he was looking for the perfect opportunity and when it fell apart (Herrera), he got nobody.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 17, 2019 18:07:27 GMT -5
Can we please hold off on whining about the bullpen? The Yankees have had the best bullpen for years. What good did it do them? Nope. Its a huge question mark. I don't care if the Yankees have a better one, I do care if we don't have one that is good enough. The market is set. If no Kimbrel your options are dwindling rather quickly. Heck even if your bring back Kimbrel you could use another Arm to replace Kelly. We got em in the minors. This is what resetting in 2020 looks like.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Jan 17, 2019 18:18:53 GMT -5
The Red Sox face a budget crunch and will lose key players from their lineup and rotation even if they extend their payroll over the next few years. They need to find undervalued/cheap players to provide an impact somewhere on this roster, you simply can't have an expensive bullpen AND the most expensive rotation and lineup. It's not ideal to have such a cheap/unproven pen on a contender, but it's the best spot of the roster to gamble on. The farm system isn't likely to provide much help to the rotation or lineup over the next year or two, but they have a real shot at delivering bullpen help.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 17, 2019 18:55:58 GMT -5
Outrageous. Not even making a play for a top-notch reliever smacks of the organizational we-are-smarter than you approach. One half of one year of Brasier and alchemist Bannister will continue to turn donuts into gold. Quantity over quality. Reclamation chaff. Let’s see how everybody feels after the pen blows multiple games early. Good idea to overwork the starters after riding them through October to start AND relieve. Umm no can do for 162. Single A Feltman to the rescue? Or the pivot to trade for a lights out reliever? Thank God we have a vaunted prospect pool dripping with can’t miss talent that we can deal for quality. Big eggs in those baskets. Then again, I’m sure the staff will note that “pitch-tipping” is to blame not the sub-par pitcher. Oh wait, Kimbrel is still out there, right? I mean that’s been the plan all along right? Wait him out, right? Then get him for below market value, right. Shhhhhh. No other organization is on to this. Just us. Only our General Manager is capable of such strategic genius. The JD gambit. Brilliant! This heat of this take has burned my face and I am posting from ICU. It was pretty funny and creative though lol. Loved the alchemist comment. All of a sudden we are playing World of Warcraft and that's something I can get into (I'm a nerd).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2019 19:18:05 GMT -5
Nope. Its a huge question mark. I don't care if the Yankees have a better one, I do care if we don't have one that is good enough. The market is set. If no Kimbrel your options are dwindling rather quickly. Heck even if your bring back Kimbrel you could use another Arm to replace Kelly. We got em in the minors. This is what resetting in 2020 looks like. We have bullpen arms that can replace Kimbrel and Kelly in the minors next year? That is very unlikely. I don't buy it, they made Kelly a two year offer, were in on other guys, the Kimbrel stuff won't die. It makes zero sense, type of crap you only do if your resetting this year, not next year. They can sign guys to one year offers. Heck most of the guys left are getting one year. That's why this nothing screams Kimbrel. No way DD doesn't add a big time bullpen arm.
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Post by Smittyw on Jan 17, 2019 19:29:20 GMT -5
If Allen can really be had on a 1-year deal, as everyone seems to be assuming (despite the parade of older and/or less accomplished relievers easily getting 2-3), that seems like the obvious move.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 17, 2019 19:45:09 GMT -5
So Dombrowski is already assuming the Sox lost Kimbrel?
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Post by dirtdog on Jan 17, 2019 19:54:17 GMT -5
Are they waiting Kimbrel out or giving Feldman a long look in the spring?
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Post by manfred on Jan 17, 2019 20:35:05 GMT -5
Truthfully, even despite the contract, I’m glad they didn’t sign Ottavino. He was good last year, but not the two years before (yeah, he’d had TJ). I just think he could disappoint. Between him and just making, say, Barnes closer, I’d prefer Barnes and keep the money for extensions.
Now Kimbrell...
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orion09
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Post by orion09 on Jan 17, 2019 20:43:05 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 17, 2019 21:40:57 GMT -5
Are they waiting Kimbrel out or giving Feldman a long look in the spring? Do you mean Lakins? Feltman hasn't reached AA yet....
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Post by Guidas on Jan 17, 2019 21:44:31 GMT -5
All I know is in pro sports if you’re not getting better, you’re getting worse. So far at least no indication this pen is better - in either depth or ability - than it was last year.
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