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2019 Celtics Offseason Thread
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 16, 2019 12:12:30 GMT -5
I get it but Richmond is 43rd on the career scoring list at 21ppg. Everyone ahead of him is either active, in the HOF or only played 6 years (Geoff Petrie). He was an all-around scorer. Could drive, slash and shoot from deep. Got to the line, was clutch. Was All-NBA 5 times. And if you ask the players he played against like Jordan they’ll tell you he was one of the best players of their era. I hate looking at scoring, it's like using wins to judge a pitcher. Little stat Horford has 85.7 career win shares in 786 games, Richmond has 79.3 in 976 games. Richmond never once posted a positive defensive plus minus box score in a single season and 80% of his value was offense. Horford's value is like 40 plus percent D, but as the win shares show it has a massive impact on winning. We've come so far with Baseball, yet it's like Basketball is still stuck in the past with advanced stats Richmond is like a lesser Melo type player. If that's the bar, it isn't very high for the HOF. You can hate scoring all you want but, but it’s the most difficult skill in basketball to master and to average 21ppg over 14 seasons is damn impressive. And I wasn’t arguing Richmond was a surefire HOF, just pointing out everyone above him on the scoring list is. And don’t bring me into the Horford argument. I was just pointing out why he may have thought you were indicating Horford was elite. Most people to argue non-elite players are HOF. Also, I hate to break it to you but Melo is a surefire Hall of Fame player and should be. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 16, 2019 12:41:04 GMT -5
I really hate how you look at him and frankly players in general. It's all about big plays or big games. You overlook the value of Horford's D and team play because it's not an easy to see boxscore stat. Like you notice his worth next year when our D struggles and we don't have a huge advantage playing small ball. It's like you're arguing that the value of D is abstract and that's kinda crazy in today's advanced stats age. He's rated as one of the best defenders in the NBA for years and years litterally by all metrics. You can have your Irving's that have some big games and just as many where he litterally kills the team. I'll take guys like Horford all day long over that. Who ever said he was elite? For me elite in the NBA are Superstars, not All-Stars and there are very few elite players in my book. It's not all about big plays or big games, I don't judge Horford's worth as a player based on those. Like I keep saying, I think Horford is a very good player, he was the best player on that depleted team that made it to the conference finals. Hooray. However, I think he's very underwhelming when you factor in his age and production, like maybe he'll surprise me and be worth the contract that the 6ers gave him. I just don't see it. I appreciate his contributions here and his time with the Celtics was obviously a net positive, I just think it was the right time to move on from him. It wasn't the 76ers that took Al away from us, it was time. And like RJP pointed out, you talked about Horford as a borderline HOFer which would put him at a level he just never reached. And there is my thing with Horford. He is good and all, but I disagree with the notion that he's anything but a regular very good player. You talk about his defense as if he was Draymond Green. Heck he wasn't even the best defender the Celtics had in pretty much any season he was here. His versatility is great, but let's not forget how often he would get bodied inside. His defense was very good, just not quite flawless. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Jul 16, 2019 15:10:24 GMT -5
How many times has Horford made an all NBA team? I appreciate D and all but if you have never made an all NBA 1st or 2nd team you aren't getting into the hall. I like Al but he isn't a HOF.
And now that he is with the Sixers I hope his game drops off the mid30's cliff.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 16, 2019 16:50:38 GMT -5
Currently there are 29 players on the top 250 win shares list in the HOF below Al Horford's numbers of win shares. Unless he falls off a cliff he has a very good chance to end his career as a top 60 guy in win shares in NBA History. Like how isn't that borderline HOF? That's your idea of a regular good player? I'm sorry but that's crazy.
The fact that everyone thinks Melo is a sure fire HOF guy and Horford isn't close is crazy. Inefficient scorers, that don't make players around them better or play D are the most overrated players in NBA History. It's why Melo never came close to winning anything. Horford as the best player on the Celtics last year went farther than Melo ever did in the playoffs. He'll also likely have more career win shares than Melo when his career ends. Melo's the Baseball guy with a good amount of hits and a ton of HRs, but was the worst defender of his day type guy. Yet was seen for most of his career as a top 5 guy, yet Paul Pierce has 50% more win shares.
Just like with Baseball voters are slow to come around to advanced stats. By the numbers Horford has been one of the most underrated players of his generation. The fact he only has one all NBA team isn't a slight on him, but that voters look at points over complete players and don't value D accordingly. Which is why I say he's borderline, when in fact his numbers really show he's an HOF player. Yet he won't get in most likely without a few extras like a championship or something like that.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 16, 2019 18:28:51 GMT -5
Currently there are 29 players on the top 250 win shares list in the HOF below Al Horford's numbers of win shares. Unless he falls off a cliff he has a very good chance to end his career as a top 60 guy in win shares in NBA History. Like how isn't that borderline HOF? That's your idea of a regular good player? I'm sorry but that's crazy. The fact that everyone thinks Melo is a sure fire HOF guy and Horford isn't close is crazy. Inefficient scorers, that don't make players around them better or play D are the most overrated players in NBA History. It's why Melo never came close to winning anything. Horford as the best player on the Celtics last year went farther than Melo ever did in the playoffs. He'll also likely have more career win shares than Melo when his career ends. Melo's the Baseball guy with a good amount of hits and a ton of HRs, but was the worst defender of his day type guy. Yet was seen for most of his career as a top 5 guy, yet Paul Pierce has 50% more win shares. Just like with Baseball voters are slow to come around to advanced stats. By the numbers Horford has been one of the most underrated players of his generation. The fact he only has one all NBA team isn't a slight on him, but that voters look at points over complete players and don't value D accordingly. Which is why I say he's borderline, when in fact his numbers really show he's an HOF player. Yet he won't get in most likely without a few extras like a championship or something like that. Any stat that hints at Al Horford being one of the 60 best players of all time is in serious need of a reevaluation. I'm not even going to pretend I can approach this at a scientific level, but I feel pretty strongly that Horford isn't a top 100 all timer guy. I feel like you're overrating Horford somewhat especially considering we're not talking about prime Horford, but rather what he's probably going to do in Philly. Last season he allowed opponent centers to score at a .568 eFG% clip. That's nothing to write home about, it's nowhere close to what Smart did and below guys like Hayward and Tatum. Per 48 he was outrebounded 15.9 to 11.5 as the center. Guys are pushing him around right now, what do you think will happen as he continues to age? He's going to be on a max contract until he's 37 and his numbers are already declining. Like I said, very good player, I liked what he did here! It was just time to move on. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 17, 2019 7:10:16 GMT -5
I’m not trying to argue who I like better as a player just stating the reality. Melo will be a HOF player and the chances are against Horford of being one. The only way this isn’t true is if the way players are voted into the HOF drastically change. This isn’t the end all and be all, but Basketball reference has Melo’s HOF probability at 98.18%. They have Al’s at 10.8%.
You can argue all you want about advances stats and why things should be different but I’m just stating the reality.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 17, 2019 7:30:46 GMT -5
Williams said after being drafted 22nd by the Celtics last month. “Whether it’s communication on defense and understanding the coverages, or trying to get the scouting report and try to give it to a guy who has a lot more to focus on like putting the ball in the basket and doing a lot more.”
Who talks like that?
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 3,048
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Post by mobaz on Jul 17, 2019 7:55:29 GMT -5
The most important part of Horford's play was as a defensive captain (and a Giannis/Embiid stopper). I think this team will miss having that D-captain. Smart has the grit but it's harder for a perimeter defender I'd think. If Grant Williams makes that is mission, and in a few years becomes that guy, that would be incredible.
I don't want a HOF with Horford in it. Melo, at least he was a Top 3 player for a period of time. Glad he was never on the Celtics.
The Mitch Richmond issue for me is ALL he did was score 20 points a game on losing teams. There are a ton of players that could score 20 a game every season for 25-35 win teams. Jaylen Brown could do that right now. He was the best player on terrible teams his whole career.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 17, 2019 8:52:44 GMT -5
Currently there are 29 players on the top 250 win shares list in the HOF below Al Horford's numbers of win shares. Unless he falls off a cliff he has a very good chance to end his career as a top 60 guy in win shares in NBA History. Like how isn't that borderline HOF? That's your idea of a regular good player? I'm sorry but that's crazy. The fact that everyone thinks Melo is a sure fire HOF guy and Horford isn't close is crazy. Inefficient scorers, that don't make players around them better or play D are the most overrated players in NBA History. It's why Melo never came close to winning anything. Horford as the best player on the Celtics last year went farther than Melo ever did in the playoffs. He'll also likely have more career win shares than Melo when his career ends. Melo's the Baseball guy with a good amount of hits and a ton of HRs, but was the worst defender of his day type guy. Yet was seen for most of his career as a top 5 guy, yet Paul Pierce has 50% more win shares. Just like with Baseball voters are slow to come around to advanced stats. By the numbers Horford has been one of the most underrated players of his generation. The fact he only has one all NBA team isn't a slight on him, but that voters look at points over complete players and don't value D accordingly. Which is why I say he's borderline, when in fact his numbers really show he's an HOF player. Yet he won't get in most likely without a few extras like a championship or something like that. Any stat that hints at Al Horford being one of the 60 best players of all time is in serious need of a reevaluation. I'm not even going to pretend I can approach this at a scientific level, but I feel pretty strongly that Horford isn't a top 100 all timer guy. I feel like you're overrating Horford somewhat especially considering we're not talking about prime Horford, but rather what he's probably going to do in Philly. Last season he allowed opponent centers to score at a .568 eFG% clip. That's nothing to write home about, it's nowhere close to what Smart did and below guys like Hayward and Tatum. Per 48 he was outrebounded 15.9 to 11.5 as the center. Guys are pushing him around right now, what do you think will happen as he continues to age? He's going to be on a max contract until he's 37 and his numbers are already declining. Like I said, very good player, I liked what he did here! It was just time to move on. I have zero issue movie on, it would have been great to have Horford with Walker, but who knows how he ages. My point was to show stats exist that show the impact that I'm talking about. You can think whatever you want about win shares, just go look at the list. It looks just like it should, the all-time greats are at the top Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, LeBron, etc. There not many guys that make you go really. It's a legit stat that measures offense and defense just like war does I'd have to make a list, but I might not have Horford as a top 60 player, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the top 60 players at impacting games. This is really an exercise in showing Horford's value and how he's been anything but a regular player up to this point in his career. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 17, 2019 9:07:46 GMT -5
I’m not trying to argue who I like better as a player just stating the reality. Melo will be a HOF player and the chances are against Horford of being one. The only way this isn’t true is if the way players are voted into the HOF drastically change. This isn’t the end all and be all, but Basketball reference has Melo’s HOF probability at 98.18%. They have Al’s at 10.8%. You can argue all you want about advances stats and why things should be different but I’m just stating the reality. I don't think In reality scoring is the hardest skill and yet everyone acts that way. The top guys can score and be complete or semi complete players. Impact the game on multiple levels. Like from a pure talent point Melo is a HOF talent, he just waisted his career only caring about his point total. Who was his former teammate that just came out and said Melo only really cared about 30 points in games? That was his goal and totally explains why he never was the player he should have been and did very little winning in his career. I'd take Horford over Melo every time when building a team. Melo is easily the most overrated player of his generation. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 17, 2019 11:12:55 GMT -5
I’m not trying to argue who I like better as a player just stating the reality. Melo will be a HOF player and the chances are against Horford of being one. The only way this isn’t true is if the way players are voted into the HOF drastically change. This isn’t the end all and be all, but Basketball reference has Melo’s HOF probability at 98.18%. They have Al’s at 10.8%. You can argue all you want about advances stats and why things should be different but I’m just stating the reality. I don't think In reality scoring is the hardest skill and yet everyone acts that way. The top guys can score and be complete or semi complete players. Impact the game on multiple levels. Like from a pure talent point Melo is a HOF talent, he just waisted his career only caring about his point total. Who was his former teammate that just came out and said Melo only really cared about 30 points in games? That was his goal and totally explains why he never was the player he should have been and did very little winning in his career. I'd take Horford over Melo every time when building a team. Melo is easily the most overrated player of his generation. I agree with everything above except that scoring regularly and consistently isn’t the most difficult skill set. It is, just because Melo only cared about it doesn’t mean it’s not. It’s hard to score a lot consistently in the NBA. Now, unfortunately, the mentality may be the one that’s easiest to find. But if guys commit to defense they can do it a lot easier than trying to commit to being a scorer. But guys with Al’s or Smarts mindsets are rare, but their skill sets are easier to duplicate if someone wanted to. |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 17, 2019 11:50:30 GMT -5
Kanter is official
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 17, 2019 13:01:41 GMT -5
Enes Kanter on choosing No. 11: "It was my old jersey number, No. 11. And I want to be the reason why no one else wears it. [pauses]. I had to say it." This guy is going to be the best to follow. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 17, 2019 14:30:27 GMT -5
I don't think In reality scoring is the hardest skill and yet everyone acts that way. The top guys can score and be complete or semi complete players. Impact the game on multiple levels. Like from a pure talent point Melo is a HOF talent, he just waisted his career only caring about his point total. Who was his former teammate that just came out and said Melo only really cared about 30 points in games? That was his goal and totally explains why he never was the player he should have been and did very little winning in his career. I'd take Horford over Melo every time when building a team. Melo is easily the most overrated player of his generation. I agree with everything above except that scoring regularly and consistently isn’t the most difficult skill set. It is, just because Melo only cared about it doesn’t mean it’s not. It’s hard to score a lot consistently in the NBA. Now, unfortunately, the mentality may be the one that’s easiest to find. But if guys commit to defense they can do it a lot easier than trying to commit to being a scorer. But guys with Al’s or Smarts mindsets are rare, but their skill sets are easier to duplicate if someone wanted to. Agree to disagree, because for me scoring at a high level is all about opportunity. Most teams won't give players that opportunity, it makes little sense if you want to win. Basketball is a team sport and you need team play to win. Not many players can do both, it what's makes the LeBron's and Giannis types so good when there on. That was never Melo, he needed to dominate the ball and completely stop the offense to get his points. Lots of players can do that. Sure Melo was one of the better ones at it for a while, but scoring regularly and consistently like that isn't hard. It's a long list of guys that could easily give you 25 plus points every game if given that opportunity. Heck Andrew Wiggins could easily do it. Why doesn't it happen more then? Look at Irving in the playoffs, Melo throughout his career. You don't win much playing that way. I think you're pumping up scoring and way undervaluing D, like it's just effort. Skills are skills and no effort or want gets players to become elite defensively unless you have the skills. Just compare Brown to Smart. Brown has way better tools, gives very good effort on D, but lacks Smarts skills and basketball IQ at the moment to be elite. Heck Robert Williams is another perfect example, all the tools, crazy effort, yet he lacks the skills and IQ right now. You can't just overlook a complete player like Horford, he's like a five tool baseball player that impacts the game on all levels. He could have easily scored more, but instead he did what was needed for the team to win. Not a ton of guys do that and it's reflected in his win share totals. Nevermind the fact that Melo not playing D gave him more engery to focus on offense. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 17, 2019 14:36:49 GMT -5
I hope this guy is here a long time
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Post by texs31 on Jul 18, 2019 9:27:55 GMT -5
Danny Ainge was on T&R and said that they are trying to get a contract done on Tacko.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 18, 2019 10:41:11 GMT -5
Danny Ainge was on T&R and said that they are trying to get a contract done on Tacko. Danny Ainge on @toucherandrich on Tacko Fall: “We’re trying to still get a contract done with Tacko. We haven’t signed him yet. I really can’t say much more about Tacko than we’re just trying to get him in the fold. … Hopefully we can get that done but we’ll see.” Could that still be the exhibit 10 contract? |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 18, 2019 11:29:14 GMT -5
Danny Ainge was on T&R and said that they are trying to get a contract done on Tacko. Danny Ainge on @toucherandrich on Tacko Fall: “We’re trying to still get a contract done with Tacko. We haven’t signed him yet. I really can’t say much more about Tacko than we’re just trying to get him in the fold. … Hopefully we can get that done but we’ll see.” Could that still be the exhibit 10 contract? He was already on an Exhibit 10. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Jul 18, 2019 11:59:24 GMT -5
Danny Ainge on @toucherandrich on Tacko Fall: “We’re trying to still get a contract done with Tacko. We haven’t signed him yet. I really can’t say much more about Tacko than we’re just trying to get him in the fold. … Hopefully we can get that done but we’ll see.” Could that still be the exhibit 10 contract? He was already on an Exhibit 10. Was it officially signed? His wording was interesting is why I asked... he said “we haven’t signed him yet” and “in the fold”. Made me wonder if he had actually signed the exhibit 10 |
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Post by texs31 on Jul 18, 2019 12:31:18 GMT -5
Reports were that he had (including 1 today that was talking about Danny's comments). However, it wouldn't surprise if that's a detail that the reports got wrong.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 18, 2019 14:02:15 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 18, 2019 14:08:23 GMT -5
F that guy...
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 18, 2019 15:52:24 GMT -5
I mean, everyone but you and Jim just can't let the Kyrie Irving stuff go. One guy heard he wanted to go somewhere else in December. Yeah, anyone can make a report like that after the fact. Dude let it go. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 18, 2019 15:56:14 GMT -5
I heard Mookie Betts wants to sign with Atlanta in 2021. I'm going to write up a nice juicy story about this gossip right now!!!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 18, 2019 16:07:14 GMT -5
I mean, everyone but you and Jim just can't let the Kyrie Irving stuff go. One guy heard he wanted to go somewhere else in December. Yeah, anyone can make a report like that after the fact. Dude let it go. Actually that's the second player to say that. I didn't post the first one because maybe it was like you said, yet two players going on record saying the same thing. It's legit and that's the time when Irving starting trashing our young players. We are getting a very clear picture of what happened last season. He's not saying he heard, he's saying he talked with Irving about it. He said Irving reached out to him about joining the Net's. Irving wasn't even being recruited, he was actively looking for a new team in early December. Stop defending the guy! |
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