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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 21, 2019 12:54:25 GMT -5
I love how Tatum and Brown score within the offense, but that requires ball movement. Walker and Smart need to do better getting them involved. Towards the end of that game I didn't feel either of them did that. Heck a bunch of series those guys didn't touch the ball. It's hard to move the ball once the defense cracks up the pressure, especially a possibly all timer defense like the Clippers. That makes it a two way street, Kemba and Marcus need to be more mindful of Brown and Tatum, but Brown and Tatum need to stab at the ball. They need to demand it, we all know Smart is a willing passer and Kemba isn't Kyrie. I think they will get there, it's part of their development.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 21, 2019 13:30:18 GMT -5
I love how Tatum and Brown score within the offense, but that requires ball movement. Walker and Smart need to do better getting them involved. Towards the end of that game I didn't feel either of them did that. Heck a bunch of series those guys didn't touch the ball. It's hard to move the ball once the defense cracks up the pressure, especially a possibly all timer defense like the Clippers. That makes it a two way street, Kemba and Marcus need to be more mindful of Brown and Tatum, but Brown and Tatum need to stab at the ball. They need to demand it, we all know Smart is a willing passer and Kemba isn't Kyrie. I think they will get there, it's part of their development. Agree to disagree. That's what Irving did, demanding the ball and I hated it. I don't want everyone going ISO because of the D. Both Smart and Walker were both able to get into the paint, they just both were looking to score. The Clippers kept moving the ball and Beverly got like four open three pointers and nailed everyone of them. That was the killer, you can take Leonard, George or Williams hitting a bunch of shots, but Beverly killed us at the end and he's was having a bad shooter year. You have to keep moving the ball with this team, we don't have a bunch of superstars. You're likely right in that they will get better and it was likely a great learning game. Not many teams have the defenders they do, but the ball just stopped moving after great ball movement all game long.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 21, 2019 14:22:08 GMT -5
Agree to disagree. That's what Irving did, demanding the ball and I hated it. I don't want everyone going ISO because of the D. Both Smart and Walker were both able to get into the paint, they just both were looking to score. The Clippers kept moving the ball and Beverly got like four open three pointers and nailed everyone of them. That was the killer, you can take Leonard, George or Williams hitting a bunch of shots, but Beverly killed us at the end and he's was having a bad shooter year. You have to keep moving the ball with this team, we don't have a bunch of superstars. You're likely right in that they will get better and it was likely a great learning game. Not many teams have the defenders they do, but the ball just stopped moving after great ball movement all game long. Oh they shouldn't ball hog and play f*ckball like Kyrie did, but they should be able to go iso here and there if that's what the defense is giving you. It's better than Smart doing it. The offense is playing really awesome for most of the game, but the balance just isn't there late in the 4th. Pay attention to how often Tatum and Brown just stand idly for successive possessions, not sure if that's on Stevens or if it's on them, but it needs to be better. What I mean is that this isn't on Smart for not passing in that situation, he doesn't have many options right now.
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Post by beantown on Nov 21, 2019 15:12:03 GMT -5
Having G back should help with moving the ball. Impressive effort last night considering we were missing our best playmaker.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 21, 2019 16:02:36 GMT -5
I didn’t see the game but when they drove into the lane were there open guys to kick it to or dump it off to in the lane? That’s the other part of the equation.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 21, 2019 16:38:08 GMT -5
I didn’t see the game but when they drove into the lane were there open guys to kick it to or dump it off to in the lane? That’s the other part of the equation. There were plenty of open guys early on, shots just weren't falling. After Tatum went supernova in the 3rd, the Clippers started playing some SERIOUS defense. There wasn't much space and they were pressuring the ball, every driver was bounced back to the 3 point line. The lack of size was a bit of an issue and it makes me wonder if they couldn't have played Kanter a bit more for some inside scoring. Time Lord plays like a guard in the paint (he did knock an absolutely impressive turnaround hook though).
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 22, 2019 4:31:02 GMT -5
I didn’t see the game but when they drove into the lane were there open guys to kick it to or dump it off to in the lane? That’s the other part of the equation. There were plenty of open guys early on, shots just weren't falling. After Tatum went supernova in the 3rd, the Clippers started playing some SERIOUS defense. There wasn't much space and they were pressuring the ball, every driver was bounced back to the 3 point line. The lack of size was a bit of an issue and it makes me wonder if they couldn't have played Kanter a bit more for some inside scoring. Time Lord plays like a guard in the paint (he did knock an absolutely impressive turnaround hook though). He also had a stop and pop mid paint that I liked, he showed good touch from 10 ft or so and he looked smooth.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 22, 2019 11:21:02 GMT -5
Agree to disagree. That's what Irving did, demanding the ball and I hated it. I don't want everyone going ISO because of the D. Both Smart and Walker were both able to get into the paint, they just both were looking to score. The Clippers kept moving the ball and Beverly got like four open three pointers and nailed everyone of them. That was the killer, you can take Leonard, George or Williams hitting a bunch of shots, but Beverly killed us at the end and he's was having a bad shooter year. You have to keep moving the ball with this team, we don't have a bunch of superstars. You're likely right in that they will get better and it was likely a great learning game. Not many teams have the defenders they do, but the ball just stopped moving after great ball movement all game long. Oh they shouldn't ball hog and play f*ckball like Kyrie did, but they should be able to go iso here and there if that's what the defense is giving you. It's better than Smart doing it. The offense is playing really awesome for most of the game, but the balance just isn't there late in the 4th. Pay attention to how often Tatum and Brown just stand idly for successive possessions, not sure if that's on Stevens or if it's on them, but it needs to be better. What I mean is that this isn't on Smart for not passing in that situation, he doesn't have many options right now. That's the offense and they do that to space the floor and give the guy someone to pass to if the drive gets cut off. Right now the use Walker, Smart, Hayward, and Wannamaker. In the basic offense one of those guys takes it to one side, either drives or passes to the guy in the corner. Doesn't work the pull it back out and swing it to the other side. All season long guys will be stationed at the three point line and this included Smart and Walker when they don't have the ball. Late in the 4th the Clippers started jumping the passing lanes and picked off a few passes. No biggie adjust your angles and be more careful with your passes. If they don't get the pass it leaves the shooter open. Instead of adjusting they changed how they played. Smart and Walker have the ball, so when both go full on scorer, the offense changes. There was no Wannamaker or Hayward, so it was on those two. I don't buy for one second they had no other options, most of the shots weren't late on the shot clock, but early in the shot clock. Nothing beats an aggressive defense like great passing and ball Movement. Just look at the Clippers getting those open shots by making the extra pass. You want Brown and Tatum more involved the ball handlers need to make sure they are touching the ball on possessions. Which for most of the year has happened. I'm not a fan of running a bunch of iso plays unless it's out of timeouts or like the last play to get Tatum a one on one down three with the game on the line. It just kills ball movement. So your only other option is for Tatum and Brown to be ball handlers and act as creators. Yet do we really want that? I'd rather it be Smart, he's much better at it than those two, or Walker, Hayward or Wannamaker who has been rather impressive lately. It has worked brilliantly all year long and it's the same basic offense that Rozier was good at running. It's why I would bitch about Irving when he'd do do much iso because it stopped ball movement. It's why Walker has been different, he lets other guys run the show a lot of the time and actually plays shooting guard. So Walker and Smart need to figure that out, with no Wannamaker or Hayward one of them has to play PG at all times and frankly it should be Smart.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 22, 2019 17:25:14 GMT -5
Bleacher Report has one of their lists that’s every teams biggest under achiever... their Boston Celtic was Jason Tatum. Initial reaction is that’s poppycock but then you think about it and it makes sense and there’s really not someone else that would fit. The write up acknowledges that he’s been good and the nomination is a testimony to his ceiling and not an indictment on his play. Small sample:
“Though he's taking more of his shots at the rim and from deep, he continues to jack too many in-between two-pointers. He's also shooting under 51 percent at the hoop, a career-worst mark by a mile, and getting to the foul line slightly less even though he didn't really reach the charity stripe too often in the first place.”
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 22, 2019 21:17:05 GMT -5
This team is allergic to good starts. Pathetic.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 22, 2019 21:37:06 GMT -5
You cannot say enough bad things about the team’s effort. They desperately need Hayward back.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 22, 2019 22:02:01 GMT -5
Let's hope Walker is OK, didn't look good.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 22, 2019 23:22:34 GMT -5
Is Brad ever going to use a challenge? That and one call was a joke.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 23, 2019 0:26:37 GMT -5
This game only told me one thing. Kemba is a dude. He's a dude's dude. From Stevens, to Brown to even Jamal Murray. JAMAL MURRAY man, the one that got into that childish thing with Kyrie. Not Kemba though. Because Kemba is a real basketball player.
This team with Kemba, Gordon, Brown, Tatum and Smart as the center. This team is just awesome. I still don't see how they win it all, but I definitely see how I love this team so much night in night out.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2019 5:58:16 GMT -5
Let's hope Walker is OK, didn't look good. Fortunately he’s fine
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2019 5:58:44 GMT -5
Is Brad ever going to use a challenge? That and one call was a joke. He uses them just at the dumbest spots
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 23, 2019 7:50:51 GMT -5
Bleacher Report has one of their lists that’s every teams biggest under achiever... their Boston Celtic was Jason Tatum. Initial reaction is that’s poppycock but then you think about it and it makes sense and there’s really not someone else that would fit. The write up acknowledges that he’s been good and the nomination is a testimony to his ceiling and not an indictment on his play. Small sample: “Though he's taking more of his shots at the rim and from deep, he continues to jack too many in-between two-pointers. He's also shooting under 51 percent at the hoop, a career-worst mark by a mile, and getting to the foul line slightly less even though he didn't really reach the charity stripe too often in the first place.” Pretty sure I said this last week when I mentioned he could be scoring 5,6 more points every game with out taking any more shots based on his missing ducks and not getting to the FT line. Speaking of that, when is Tatum going to start getting some calls? I mean really!! He gets swiped at on every drive and the D just becomes more emboldened to foul him when it doesn't get called. How does this team shoot so horribly and still find themselves in games late? Another good sign. When Kemba went down I couldn't help but think that the curse was continuing. The curse to me started when Len Bias overdosed the night of the 86 draft followed by the Reggie Lewis death, the early ending of Bird and McHales careers due to injuries, the terrible luck with lotteries in the 90"s losing out on Duncan. Yeah we had the big three era but then Gordon goes down, Kyrie sets the team back and then Kemba last night just brought back all these negative thoughts. Everything Red touched for 3+ decades turned to gold and the last 3 decades have been a little rough. Yes the C's have had some good times but the luck has definitely not been good for a long time. It is time for some positive luck!!
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2019 8:13:38 GMT -5
Tatum might start getting calls when he stops crying for one every play. If he were on any other team I’d hate him for that. Also, finishing strong thru contact and not losing the ball so easily would help.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 23, 2019 9:39:30 GMT -5
Tatum might start getting calls when he stops crying for one every play. If he were on any other team I’d hate him for that. Also, finishing strong thru contact and not losing the ball so easily would help. He’s starting to do the latter the past week or so, and I think the calls will follow. But the constant whining is annoying and I’m sure it’s wearing thin with the officials.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 23, 2019 10:33:24 GMT -5
Bleacher Report has one of their lists that’s every teams biggest under achiever... their Boston Celtic was Jason Tatum. Initial reaction is that’s poppycock but then you think about it and it makes sense and there’s really not someone else that would fit. The write up acknowledges that he’s been good and the nomination is a testimony to his ceiling and not an indictment on his play. Small sample: “Though he's taking more of his shots at the rim and from deep, he continues to jack too many in-between two-pointers. He's also shooting under 51 percent at the hoop, a career-worst mark by a mile, and getting to the foul line slightly less even though he didn't really reach the charity stripe too often in the first place.” Seems a little crazy, sure his at the rim shooting has been disappointing. You only really think of him as an under achiever if you set the bar at All-Star. That's what he'd be if his shooting at the rim was at his career norm. He's at 63.5% of his shots are at the rim or three pointers, last year was 56.1%. Like what do people expect? Tatum has a very good mid range shot. If he's open he needs to take those shots. He's not doing what he did last year with a bunch of iso long range two's. For me the quality of the shot is what is important more than the percentage of them. How is he getting to the line slightly less? He's improved over last year, even if you use per 36 minute numbers. Color me confused, sounds like an old article. Outside of his shooting, mainly because of that at the rim shooting, his numbers are up a cross the board, his defense mainly playing PF has been great and he's become much more aggressive and is taking a lot more shots. To me so far it's our two rookies that were older with a ton of College experience, neither has been that good. To make matters worse Brandon Clarke is playing great. I don't know, but watching Williams play big minutes the last two games hasn't impressed me.
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 23, 2019 10:36:37 GMT -5
Tatum might start getting calls when he stops crying for one every play. If he were on any other team I’d hate him for that. Also, finishing strong thru contact and not losing the ball so easily would help. He’s starting to do the latter the past week or so, and I think the calls will follow. But the constant whining is annoying and I’m sure it’s wearing thin with the officials. Yeah I mentioned this last week also, he should just shutup and focus on finishing period!! The calls will come but he needs to go easier with the refs. Anyone else concerned with Smart's offensive game at the moment? It seems like his improved run lately has gone to his head and he is a bit too ball dominant, which with injuries is understandable and he isn't terrible all the time. But I would rather see more ball movement and for him to put up fewer shots.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2019 11:15:04 GMT -5
Bleacher Report has one of their lists that’s every teams biggest under achiever... their Boston Celtic was Jason Tatum. Initial reaction is that’s poppycock but then you think about it and it makes sense and there’s really not someone else that would fit. The write up acknowledges that he’s been good and the nomination is a testimony to his ceiling and not an indictment on his play. Small sample: “Though he's taking more of his shots at the rim and from deep, he continues to jack too many in-between two-pointers. He's also shooting under 51 percent at the hoop, a career-worst mark by a mile, and getting to the foul line slightly less even though he didn't really reach the charity stripe too often in the first place.” Seems a little crazy, sure his at the rim shooting has been disappointing. You only really think of him as an under achiever if you set the bar at All-Star. That's what he'd be if his shooting at the rim was at his career norm. He's at 63.5% of his shots are at the rim or three pointers, last year was 56.1%. Like what do people expect? Tatum has a very good mid range shot. If he's open he needs to take those shots. He's not doing what he did last year with a bunch of iso long range two's. For me the quality of the shot is what is important more than the percentage of them. How is he getting to the line slightly less? He's improved over last year, even if you use per 36 minute numbers. Color me confused, sounds like an old article. Outside of his shooting, mainly because of that at the rim shooting, his numbers are up a cross the board, his defense mainly playing PF has been great and he's become much more aggressive and is taking a lot more shots. To me so far it's our two rookies that were older with a ton of College experience, neither has been that good. To make matters worse Brandon Clarke is playing great. I don't know, but watching Williams play big minutes the last two games hasn't impressed me. It wasn’t old, if you read the entire write up it was a praising of Tatum and yes the bar was set at All-star. I don’t think a late first round and early second round pick qualify. I am with you on G Williams but we are also only 17 games into the year. The experience he’s getting should be a good thing long term. You can’t expect there to not be growing pains with a rookie. Hell the end of last night both Williams showed inexperience at times. Rob, over rotes hunting for blocks too much giving his man easy offensive boards and put backs. Stevens took him out and put in Grant right after doing that in crunch time. I think it was the wrong move but it’s what happened. The game is still moving fast for Grant - he misses some easy layups and gets swallowed up trying to make a more difficult passes. I think we need to live with some of this stuff because we need them both to be better. I think they will.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 23, 2019 12:13:33 GMT -5
You talking about with seven seconds left down five when Grant came in for Robert?
Overall I don't disagree, Robert hasn't seen much playing time and will do crap like that or moving screens on offense all the time. On the flip side he's a guy that was crazy raw and has major upside because he's a crazy athlete. His advanced numbers are crazy already. 21 PER, tops ws/48 on team, tops defensive box score and overall box score. Per 36 minutes he's averaging 11 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.2 steals, and 3.1 blocks. He's already doing things like jumping passing lanes like he did last night. We've seen him easily switch on to players as a help defender. Even with Haywards big jump, he's still my pick for most improved.
He just needs more playing time and to clean up a few things. Hunting for blocks, going for every pump fake, moving screens. Things that usually improve with more playing time. His skill level is rather impressive right now.
I don't really care about the mistakes Grant Williams makes and maybe my expectations were to high. Yet he was seen as a very skilled, advanced player, who's big issue was size and athletic ability. Two time SEC player of the year. His defense overall hasn't been bad, but he's given you almost nothing on offense. 5.8 points per 36 minutes, shooting 27.3% and 0-19 from three point land. I did forget how young he is at 21, having played three years at College. I just expected a much more polished offensive game.
I need to see Langford play, like it's starting to drive me crazy.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 23, 2019 12:22:04 GMT -5
On the second unit and after Williams went out with Smart, Brown did a bunch of creating last night and was rather good at it. He kept going to the basket, got to the line a bunch, which jump started his offense after a horrible start. Tied a season high with four assists. Maybe he should do that more, he might be ready to take that next step.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 23, 2019 15:54:18 GMT -5
It was with 4:14 left... Robert left Jokic to close on Harris when there was no reason to- Harris missed then Jokic had and easy board then Robert fouled him to boot. Terrible play but I agree it’s all about experience. Brad took him out and put in Grant. Bad sub. Robert was overall playing great and was part of that run.
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