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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2019 10:23:25 GMT -5
All I’m arguing is that to insinuate that Doncic is experienced as a 20 year old so there’s no improvement to be gained from more experience is foolish. Those exact words weren’t used but that’s what the message was. He is what he is defensively because of what he is as an athlete and he’s already gotten his experience fill so more of that won’t help him improve. That’s foolishness and if it’s not what was meant then fine but it’s the message that was sent and I can’t disagree more.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 27, 2019 12:18:36 GMT -5
Sure he's an NBA athlete, just a below average one. That's not hating, it's the truth. You can believe whatever you want, we'll see come playoff time. For me he's clearly the weak link and that is exactly what teams focus on come playoff time. That's not to say he can't be the top player on a title team, you'll just need the right mix of players. Curry played with a bunch of elite defenders, same with Harden who has yet to win and I think they are both better defenders by a large amount right now. Giannis is a career 73.3% FT shooter in seven seasons, including this years numbers. He's a PF, like why does he need to be able to shoot? He's currently unstoppable without being able to shoot. If he could shoot, he'd be the best player I've ever seen. Scores 31.1 points effective FG % of 59.8, Doncic 30.6 points on 57.4% effective FG%. Doncic is NOT a below average athlete, he's at worst an average athlete. A below average athlete doesn't run the offense, a below average athlete doesn't get separation to get any looks, a below average athlete can't drive towards the basket again and again, a below average athlete doesn't play 34 minutes averaging a triple double. He's a below average defender and a lot of that can be attributed to him being somewhat slow, but it's mainly because he's 20 years old in his sophomore year. By the way, that's the thing. We're comparing Giannis and Luka asking who can dominate the league in the future when Lebron mercifully goes away for good. Luka is 5 years younger than Giannis. He's playing his second season in the league. Do you know what Giannis was doing as a 20 year old in his second season? Averaging 12 points. There are still questions about his shooting and no, he doesn't NEED to be able to shoot, but it's a flaw in his game. We're comparing flaws then. Doncic is a bad defender. There's FAR more hope that Doncic will be an average defender than there is for Giannis to be an average shooter. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2019 13:11:06 GMT -5
Just so no one harps on an insignificant detail. Giannis is 4 years 3 months older not 5 years.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 27, 2019 14:30:44 GMT -5
Just so no one harps on an insignificant detail. Giannis is 4 years 3 months older not 5 years. Ah good catch, still plenty of time for Doncic to get in shape. He might not average a triple double once everyone realizes he's a nonathlete. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 27, 2019 18:50:00 GMT -5
Just a thought, with Kyrie gone Smart becomes the face/personality whatever of the C's. That makes a big difference.
Something I don't think we talk much about is how Kyrie had an aversion to the regular season, he openly talked about the regular season not meaning as much. Am I right and is that the right way of looking at it?
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 27, 2019 19:54:13 GMT -5
Just a thought, with Kyrie gone Smart becomes the face/personality whatever of the C's. That makes a big difference. Something I don't think we talk much about is how Kyrie had an aversion to the regular season, he openly talked about the regular season not meaning as much. Am I right and is that the right way of looking at it? Kemba is the face of the Celtics. Brad’s quick hook for Rob Williams is absolutely baffling. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2019 19:59:52 GMT -5
Just a thought, with Kyrie gone Smart becomes the face/personality whatever of the C's. That makes a big difference. Something I don't think we talk much about is how Kyrie had an aversion to the regular season, he openly talked about the regular season not meaning as much. Am I right and is that the right way of looking at it? Kemba is the face of the Celtics. Brad’s quick hook for Rob Williams is absolutely baffling. He may still have that injury |
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 27, 2019 20:09:18 GMT -5
Bozo Brad refuses to use a good challenge, and it’s hurting the team yet again. He also waits way too long to use a timeout.
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 27, 2019 20:14:13 GMT -5
This game would be closer if Brad was a competent in-game coach.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 27, 2019 21:29:36 GMT -5
This game would be closer if Brad was a competent in-game coach. I couldn’t believe when they showed he was better than league average on challenges |
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 27, 2019 21:33:24 GMT -5
This game would be closer if Brad was a competent in-game coach. I couldn’t believe when they showed he was better than league average on challenges I’m thankful he won that challenge. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 27, 2019 23:40:50 GMT -5
One of the best wins of the season. Kemba was utterly amazing and in complete control, plus the team was just so tough to withstand that quarter where the Nets just couldn't miss from 3. I remember saying at some point last season that Rozier was our guy in a way that Kyrie just wasn't. Well, KEMBA IS VERY MUCH OUR GUY!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2019 11:20:08 GMT -5
I don't see Doncic's issue as effort, it's ability. .... he lacks athletic ability when the NBA is likely more athletic than ever. I would just like to point out this is the same exact argument you made when saying why Doncic wouldn’t be a very good scorer in the NBA. Some of us brought up Pierce not being a great athlete in the traditional sense and you shot that down. Paraphrasing here bur you basically said Doncic wouldn’t be able to get by anyone or create space to get his shot off. So if you want to die on this hill again that’s up to you. All anyone is saying is he can develop into an average to solid defender. No one knows if he will but it’s quite possible not some major upset should he do so. Signed, Guy who would take Giannis over him if we were picking today I wasn't wrong about his athleticism, he's exactly who I saw watching the videos. What those videos didn't really show was his crazy skilled he was. By far and away the most skilled 19 year old I've every seen. He can't just drive by people all the time,yet it doesn't matter. His skill allows him to take those mid range shots or pass the ball. He can't just jump up and get his shot off, yet it doesn't matter because he uses a step back to create room. Yes I was wrong about Doncic, but it wasn't because he's more athletic than I thought, it's because he's one of the most skilled players I've ever seen. I didn't agree about Pierce because he was a rather good athlete, like Tatum. Guy had a 38 inch vertical, which even today puts you in the very good section. Watching Doncic he doesn't even seem to be on Grant Williams level of an athlete, guy with 35.5 vertical. He sure seems to be on a Kyle Korver level of 31.5 vertical. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2019 11:29:39 GMT -5
All I’m arguing is that to insinuate that Doncic is experienced as a 20 year old so there’s no improvement to be gained from more experience is foolish. Those exact words weren’t used but that’s what the message was. He is what he is defensively because of what he is as an athlete and he’s already gotten his experience fill so more of that won’t help him improve. That’s foolishness and if it’s not what was meant then fine but it’s the message that was sent and I can’t disagree more. No one said he can't improve, the point being he's not a normal 20 year old. He's likely the most experienced player to ever step foot in the NBA at his age. Now you can act like or think all that just went to offense, but what if it didn't? He's not like Robert Williams being out of place and not understanding the defensive concepts. His struggles look completely tied to his athletic ability. In his own words he's been playing D against actual men since he was 13. So I think it's crazy fair to ask what is his upside on D? Compared to just assuming because he's young he'll become average or better. Skill only goes so far in today's NBA on D. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 28, 2019 11:30:09 GMT -5
Just a thought, with Kyrie gone Smart becomes the face/personality whatever of the C's. That makes a big difference. Something I don't think we talk much about is how Kyrie had an aversion to the regular season, he openly talked about the regular season not meaning as much. Am I right and is that the right way of looking at it? Kemba is the face of the Celtics. Brad’s quick hook for Rob Williams is absolutely baffling. Kemba just got here and is the best player but just like Draymond in GS with Steph, Smart is that to Boston. The C's staple is tough D and Smart is where that begins, he sets the tone. www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/marcus-smart-celtics-5-toughest?fbclid=IwAR2bIElYaUHFXwaD2GmzAJrCROcy3K7njyj0TXE3MdFlqoVDL1Dz4wlkgNc |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 28, 2019 13:00:10 GMT -5
Sure he's an NBA athlete, just a below average one. That's not hating, it's the truth. You can believe whatever you want, we'll see come playoff time. For me he's clearly the weak link and that is exactly what teams focus on come playoff time. That's not to say he can't be the top player on a title team, you'll just need the right mix of players. Curry played with a bunch of elite defenders, same with Harden who has yet to win and I think they are both better defenders by a large amount right now. Giannis is a career 73.3% FT shooter in seven seasons, including this years numbers. He's a PF, like why does he need to be able to shoot? He's currently unstoppable without being able to shoot. If he could shoot, he'd be the best player I've ever seen. Scores 31.1 points effective FG % of 59.8, Doncic 30.6 points on 57.4% effective FG%. Doncic is NOT a below average athlete, he's at worst an average athlete. A below average athlete doesn't run the offense, a below average athlete doesn't get separation to get any looks, a below average athlete can't drive towards the basket again and again, a below average athlete doesn't play 34 minutes averaging a triple double. He's a below average defender and a lot of that can be attributed to him being somewhat slow, but it's mainly because he's 20 years old in his sophomore year. By the way, that's the thing. We're comparing Giannis and Luka asking who can dominate the league in the future when Lebron mercifully goes away for good. Luka is 5 years younger than Giannis. He's playing his second season in the league. Do you know what Giannis was doing as a 20 year old in his second season? Averaging 12 points. There are still questions about his shooting and no, he doesn't NEED to be able to shoot, but it's a flaw in his game. We're comparing flaws then. Doncic is a bad defender. There's FAR more hope that Doncic will be an average defender than there is for Giannis to be an average shooter. You can have your opinion, but that isn't shared even with his big supporters. It's his skill level, for example he can't just drive by people all game long like a Tatum. When he get stopped he passes or uses his great mid range game. Production doesn't equal athletic ability. It's why he has all those moves, he needs them to score on more athletic players. Like maybe in the 80's or 90's he might have been an average athlete, but times have changed. It's like saying Tom Brady is a great athlete because he has great footwork and instincts to move around in the pocket and avoid sacks or because of his production. He's not, but he's still a great player. Giannis was one of the more raw players to come into the NBA. He was basically just a freak athlete and experience made his game evolve. It's like watching Brown over the years develop skills and Basketball IQ. NBA players can gain skills rather easily, look at Horford and Lopez becoming shooters later in their careers. Sure good athletes like Harden can finally start trying on D. Yet a player with limited athleticism becoming a non liability on D isn't something you see that often. Guy's like Thomas could get a little better, but no amount of experience was going to have him overcome his height. I'm sure Doncic can improve in some ways, but more experience isn't going to make him faster or more athletic. His ceiling is limited. If your in a playoff series how do you exploit Giannis shooting? You can't just have huge centers clog the middle anymore given the NBA rules. You can't be crazy physical with him. He's so athletic that even great defenders can't stop him. Double him and he's become a great passer and they surround him with shooters. As the article pointed out teams are already targeting Doncic, that will only get worse in the playoffs as teams game plan a lot more. I'd target him all game long and build my whole game plan around attacking him. If it was the Celtics I'd send Tatum and Brown at him again and again. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 28, 2019 13:43:57 GMT -5
If your in a playoff series how do you exploit Giannis shooting? You can't just have huge centers clog the middle anymore given the NBA rules. You can't be crazy physical with him. He's so athletic that even great defenders can't stop him. Double him and he's become a great passer and they surround him with shooters. You're missing the point I'm making here. There's no stopping Giannis, you don't exploit Giannis. He's going to score a lot. We're talking about the best player in the league or one of the 5 best players in the league. There's no recipe against him, you just try stuff. However, we're comparing absolutely fantastic players on their upside. Overall, I think Doncic could be a better player than Giannis is right now, I just like his offensive game more. He's a MUCH better playmaker than Giannis, much better shooter, he can score inside as well, everything. Since runs the offense, he is the focal point of the team at all times regardless of where he is in the court. He doesn't have a spot to play. You think his shortcomings on defense take him away from that top player in the league conversation, which is fair, I just disagree with it because I think he has what it takes to be at least average guarding his position. I don't think there's anything physically that could prevent him from being a good defender, he's 20 years old and in his second year in the league. Not many guys come in and immediately dominate on defense. And seriously, you keep talking about Doncic not being athletic, what exactly do you mean? Does he get pushed around? He can't jump? It can't be either of these things, he's picking up 10 rebounds a game and if you watch the games you can see that guys aren't mauling him. Is he slow? Well, he is, but how many guys have the mix of size AND speed to punish him there? You keep speaking in broader terms, but what effect does his lack of athleticism have on the actual game of basketball? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 28, 2019 14:49:03 GMT -5
I would just like to point out this is the same exact argument you made when saying why Doncic wouldn’t be a very good scorer in the NBA. Some of us brought up Pierce not being a great athlete in the traditional sense and you shot that down. Paraphrasing here bur you basically said Doncic wouldn’t be able to get by anyone or create space to get his shot off. So if you want to die on this hill again that’s up to you. All anyone is saying is he can develop into an average to solid defender. No one knows if he will but it’s quite possible not some major upset should he do so. Signed, Guy who would take Giannis over him if we were picking today I wasn't wrong about his athleticism, he's exactly who I saw watching the videos. What those videos didn't really show was his crazy skilled he was. By far and away the most skilled 19 year old I've every seen. He can't just drive by people all the time,yet it doesn't matter. His skill allows him to take those mid range shots or pass the ball. He can't just jump up and get his shot off, yet it doesn't matter because he uses a step back to create room. Yes I was wrong about Doncic, but it wasn't because he's more athletic than I thought, it's because he's one of the most skilled players I've ever seen. I didn't agree about Pierce because he was a rather good athlete, like Tatum. Guy had a 38 inch vertical, which even today puts you in the very good section. Watching Doncic he doesn't even seem to be on Grant Williams level of an athlete, guy with 35.5 vertical. He sure seems to be on a Kyle Korver level of 31.5 vertical. Never mind it’s worthless to discuss let’s just go with you were right |
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 29, 2019 12:29:45 GMT -5
This team is pathetic at starting games.
It would be nice if Tatum didn’t turn it over every time he touches the ball.
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 29, 2019 13:38:47 GMT -5
This is such a putrid effort by everyone involved against a team that isn’t good.
This coaching staff clearly doesn’t have a game plan defending the 3. It’s a complete joke.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 29, 2019 15:01:55 GMT -5
This is a game where Hayward was badly missed, they can't withstand Walker AND Brown having a bad game at the same time. There's no margin of error for that. I agree that the defense was poor though.
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Post by philarhody on Nov 29, 2019 15:55:56 GMT -5
Kemba and Smart shot Boston out of a game in which they need to win. Jaylen only with 8 points.
Kemba has to do better than that.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 29, 2019 16:31:20 GMT -5
Kemba and Smart shot Boston out of a game in which they need to win. What? They didn't need to win this game lol. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 29, 2019 20:13:39 GMT -5
I do think Brad has been much better with his time outs this year. That’s a positive development.
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Post by philarhody on Nov 29, 2019 22:16:28 GMT -5
Kemba and Smart shot Boston out of a game in which they need to win. What? They didn't need to win this game lol. You have to win the gimmes. With all their injuries, this Nets team is a gimme. |
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