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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 17, 2020 22:20:58 GMT -5
Guys don't start acting like he's 2020 Doc Rivers out there, he did make some adjustments in this game. We even got the lead back in the 4th after he had Smart working at the FT line making reads to break the zone. But inexplicably the team went away from that, it certainly didn't help that Kemba forgot how to pass the ball or Tatum just had nothing left in the tank.
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Post by tizzle on Sept 17, 2020 22:23:20 GMT -5
It's kinda funny how you judge coaches differently depending on talent level. I was never a huge fan of the Heats coach with the big three, yet wow he has his team playing great. Stevens did a ton with less talented teams, yet he is getting out coached a lot in these playoffs when he seems to have more firepower. His first few years here, we seemed to overachieve and it was pretty universal talk of him being the next great, HOF-level coach. Then, once the team had the talent and was expected to go far, they started going not quite as far as it seemed they should. The whispered questions about how good Stevens was started. I suspect hose whispers might start getting louder soon. The hope has to be that he can develop his skills just like his young players are. But if things don't change, my opinion would be that next year should be something of a make or break one.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 17, 2020 22:25:47 GMT -5
Guys don't start acting like he's 2020 Doc Rivers out there, he did make some adjustments in this game. We even got the lead back in the 4th after he had Smart working at the FT line making reads to break the zone. But inexplicably the team went away from that, it certainly didn't help that Kemba forgot how to pass the ball or Tatum just had nothing left in the tank. They built that 5-point lead when the Heat switched to man. As soon as they went back to zone, the Celtics offense instantly fell back apart. With that being said, Stevens’ job is extremely safe - and it should be.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 18, 2020 1:03:11 GMT -5
They built that 5-point lead when the Heat switched to man. As soon as they went back to zone, the Celtics offense instantly fell back apart. With that being said, Stevens’ job is extremely safe - and it should be. No no, they got back in the game with the Heat playing zone with Smart at the FT line. They found a solution to break the 2-3 zone, they just need guys moving better around and for Smart to make better reads. Then Kemba makes an absolutely terrible pass that leads to a Miami fastbreak and the team goes back to scrambling mode. Also, that LAZY inbounds pass by Wanamaker JFC. I'm still salty about it.
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ianrs
Veteran
Posts: 2,451
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Post by ianrs on Sept 18, 2020 2:36:51 GMT -5
I can't believe Brad put in Kanter when we were already getting killed in the pick and roll.
Can't believe I'm saying this either, but Grant Williams needs to play the 5 if we want to come back in this series. He's one of our only guys who can match Bam physically and switch.
Obviously would also help if we had Gordon instead of Semi/Wanamakers 25 minutes, but I doubt Gordon is going to be 100% ready to step into a heated series.
Positive note: last two finalists from East started ECF down 2-0.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 18, 2020 5:53:40 GMT -5
It’s easy for me to forget this team is playing without Hayward when I’m getting pissed off. We forget how good he is on this team. He’s taken a back seat to our top 3 but he’s every bit as good as the guys non named Tatum. He was a beast against Miami this year. I know some of you don’t think he’s good defensively but this is the exact type of team he’s great against. All the switches and rotations you needs he’s on point with and offensively he doesn’t turn it over and is so smooth. We’d be able to run the offense thru him with these leads and we wouldn’t be sloppy and the right play would be made.
It’s a big time piece to be short. Meanwhile Miami is full strength.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 18, 2020 10:12:58 GMT -5
Yeah the lack of depth is really showing. Miami has a lot of guys who can score, we don't. We saw Tatum obviously gassed in the 4th last night.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 12:45:16 GMT -5
They built that 5-point lead when the Heat switched to man. As soon as they went back to zone, the Celtics offense instantly fell back apart. With that being said, Stevens’ job is extremely safe - and it should be. No no, they got back in the game with the Heat playing zone with Smart at the FT line. They found a solution to break the 2-3 zone, they just need guys moving better around and for Smart to make better reads. Then Kemba makes an absolutely terrible pass that leads to a Miami fastbreak and the team goes back to scrambling mode. Also, that LAZY inbounds pass by Wanamaker JFC. I'm still salty about it. Don I'm not trying to go nuclear on Stevens, yet the Raptors ran a ton of zone and it killed us. The Heat of course have done the same thing and it killed us. It took Stevens eight quarters against the Heat to insert Smart and let's not act like even with that there were great. Both teams played zone to start the third quarter and how did that go? The Heat gave you a clinic how to destroy it, they just moved there guys around and had Bam cutting against Walker. I'm screaming at the TV put in Robert Williams, who is actually perfect for zone D. He sticks to his game plan and inserts Kanter. The Heat coach seems to have 100 different lineups and game plans ready. He switches on the fly based by what we do, Stevens sets a game plan and takes forever to adjust it. Just look at our third quarters in the playoffs. A few you can chalk up to something, yet not every single one. I don't see how every third quarter is on the players and not the other team adjusting while Stevens doesn't. Like he seems very good after games of looking at the tape and adjusting, he saw what I did and inserted Kanter. Yet couldn't quickly adjust when they did. Two games in a row late they pressure Tatum and Walker on the three point line, zero adjustments. People need to cut when that happens, not just run our basic offense from the three point line. I'm not saying he's horrible, he easily out coached Brown. Yet he's going to be fired if he hasn't already. He's great at things like developing young talent and overall isn't a bad coach. Yet his in game adjustments have been horrible the last two series and he's being out coached easily. He needs to learn from this and get better. Just like we say with the players. For me the blame on TOs is Tatum, Walker and Smart as they had 16 of the teams 20 TOs. I also felt this wasn't the Raptors who created a ton, just them making stupid plays.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 12:53:56 GMT -5
It’s easy for me to forget this team is playing without Hayward when I’m getting pissed off. We forget how good he is on this team. He’s taken a back seat to our top 3 but he’s every bit as good as the guys non named Tatum. He was a beast against Miami this year. I know some of you don’t think he’s good defensively but this is the exact type of team he’s great against. All the switches and rotations you needs he’s on point with and offensively he doesn’t turn it over and is so smooth. We’d be able to run the offense thru him with these leads and we wouldn’t be sloppy and the right play would be made. It’s a big time piece to be short. Meanwhile Miami is full strength. I'm not going to say he's as good as anyone not named Tatum, I don't believe that. Yet they do miss him, yet it almost feels like a cop out. Like don't blame the coach for not getting our current guys ready and adjusting. Give him an even bigger edge in talent and we'll be fine. That's likely true, but they could have easily won both games without him. Heck they should have won both games or at least the one last night.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 18, 2020 13:04:36 GMT -5
I'm not saying he's horrible, he easily out coached Brown. Yet he's going to be fired if he hasn't already. He's great at things like developing young talent and overall isn't a bad coach. Yet his in game adjustments have been horrible the last two series and he's being out coached easily. He needs to learn from this and get better. Just like we say with the players. I really don't think Brad got outcoached by either Nurse or Spo. I think he clearly belongs in that group, he had his team in position to win both games and it didn't happen for a lot of reasons. Including himself, but not to the point where we can say he's the main cause. He's not getting outclassed like Brown did, or like guys like Nate McMillan, D'Antoni or old friend Doc Rivers frequently do. He's an elite coach, those do not grow on trees. He needs to get better? Yes, but thankfully he's still ridiculously young. Point is, and I'm going to be very blunt here, I think we lost both games because guys had the shits when it counted. Still a very young team that is missing a starter. You had a tough quarter and Olynyk hits THAT 3? Any team would be shook.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 13:12:43 GMT -5
They really need to change the replay rules. Like if you challenge and you're right you get to keep that challenge. Plus getting a few more a game or adding another ref that watches from a monitor.
The Stevens had to waste his challenge on a clear play, then can't challenge the Kemba clear charge is crazy.
If your going to call Tatum for using his arm to create space on drives, then call it on the Heat.
I don't usually bitch about the Refs because it usually evens out and the other team usually feels the same way. Yet last game was extreme. They go from calling nothing to calling ticky tac stuff. Like pick a path and call it that way, don't keep flip flopping and call it the same on both teams.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 13:19:17 GMT -5
I'm not saying he's horrible, he easily out coached Brown. Yet he's going to be fired if he hasn't already. He's great at things like developing young talent and overall isn't a bad coach. Yet his in game adjustments have been horrible the last two series and he's being out coached easily. He needs to learn from this and get better. Just like we say with the players. I really don't think Brad got outcoached by either Nurse or Spo. I think he clearly belongs in that group, he had his team in position to win both games and it didn't happen for a lot of reasons. Including himself, but not to the point where we can say he's the main cause. He's not getting outclassed like Brown did, or like guys like Nate McMillan, D'Antoni or old friend Doc Rivers frequently do. He's an elite coach, those do not grow on trees. He needs to get better? Yes, but thankfully he's still ridiculously young. Point is, and I'm going to be very blunt here, I think we lost both games because guys had the shits when it counted. Still a very young team that is missing a starter. You had a tough quarter and Olynyk hits THAT 3? Any team would be shook. You're just blaming the players and not the coach. The Raptors had a much older team, the Heat don't. They are playing a rookie, a second year guy in Robinson and a third year guy in Bam. We have the more experienced team with more playoff experience and in my opinion much more talented. Which is why the Heat and Raptors can't blow us out, yet we can't win the close games. Which for me comes down to coaching.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 18, 2020 13:36:23 GMT -5
It’s easy for me to forget this team is playing without Hayward when I’m getting pissed off. We forget how good he is on this team. He’s taken a back seat to our top 3 but he’s every bit as good as the guys non named Tatum. He was a beast against Miami this year. I know some of you don’t think he’s good defensively but this is the exact type of team he’s great against. All the switches and rotations you needs he’s on point with and offensively he doesn’t turn it over and is so smooth. We’d be able to run the offense thru him with these leads and we wouldn’t be sloppy and the right play would be made. It’s a big time piece to be short. Meanwhile Miami is full strength. I'm not going to say he's as good as anyone not named Tatum, I don't believe that. Yet they do miss him, yet it almost feels like a cop out. Like don't blame the coach for not getting our current guys ready and adjusting. Give him an even bigger edge in talent and we'll be fine. That's likely true, but they could have easily won both games without him. Heck they should have won both games or at least the one last night. I’m not going to quibble about the first part but yea the talent matters. You can’t tell me Tatum, Walker, Brown and Smart are THAT much better than Butler, Bam, Dragic and Herro. Then you add Miami’s depth. Without Hayward this team doesn’t have some big talent advantage. 3 things can be true: Brad needs to coach better / the players need to not be so careless and we miss Hayward big time.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Sept 18, 2020 13:52:29 GMT -5
They really need to change the replay rules. Like if you challenge and you're right you get to keep that challenge. Plus getting a few more a game or adding another ref that watches from a monitor. The Stevens had to waste his challenge on a clear play, then can't challenge the Kemba clear charge is crazy. If your going to call Tatum for using his arm to create space on drives, then call it on the Heat. I don't usually bitch about the Refs because it usually evens out and the other team usually feels the same way. Yet last game was extreme. They go from calling nothing to calling ticky tac stuff. Like pick a path and call it that way, don't keep flip flopping and call it the same on both teams. The refs literally accounted for a 6-0 run in less than a minute when they inexplicably reset the shot clock before the Crowder 4-point play. The Celtics were up 10 before that happened. Don’t get me wrong, it’s on the Celtics for letting that call affect them to the point of falling apart. But these types of momentum-changing calls are unacceptable considering how much NBA refs are paid. And that’s without even mentioning the call Brad had to use his challenge for, and the ridiculous inconstancy on blocks/charges. It’s about time they actually have some accountability when they screw up as badly as they have been this postseason.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 14:10:28 GMT -5
I'm not going to say he's as good as anyone not named Tatum, I don't believe that. Yet they do miss him, yet it almost feels like a cop out. Like don't blame the coach for not getting our current guys ready and adjusting. Give him an even bigger edge in talent and we'll be fine. That's likely true, but they could have easily won both games without him. Heck they should have won both games or at least the one last night. I’m not going to quibble about the first part but yea the talent matters. You can’t tell me Tatum, Walker, Brown and Smart are THAT much better than Butler, Bam, Dragic and Herro. Then you add Miami’s depth. Without Hayward this team doesn’t have some big talent advantage. 3 things can be true: Brad needs to coach better / the players need to not be so careless and we miss Hayward big time. You can certainly debate to which degree, but our starting five is better and I don't think it's just some razor thin line either. Last game the benches were equal 16 points each and in game one it was 20-17. Our bench hasn't played bad, which is why this is painful. I don't disagree with the last part, yet you add Hayward and the talent difference is massive. For the first time I really think Stevens deserves some harsh criticism. What are they negative a few hundred in the third quarter of 13 games? Having lost 12 out of 13 of them. How many times are we going to crack at the end of games because the other coach changes something up? I overlooked it against the Raptors because they were the older team and last year's Champions. Yet it's happening again against a team with much less Playoff experience than we have. This is Butler's first ever conference championship just like Kemba.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 18, 2020 16:34:03 GMT -5
You're just blaming the players and not the coach. The Raptors had a much older team, the Heat don't. They are playing a rookie, a second year guy in Robinson and a third year guy in Bam. We have the more experienced team with more playoff experience and in my opinion much more talented. Which is why the Heat and Raptors can't blow us out, yet we can't win the close games. Which for me comes down to coaching. I'm blaming everyone equally. I'm not sure how much more Stevens could have done and it's telling that every fan has a different theory. Play Grant! Don't play Grant! Play Timelord! Don't play Timelord! I just don't see the egregious mistake in coaching, he has his team in a good position to win and that hasn't happened. Some of it is his fault, but not the majority of it. Lack of depth and youth are the main culprits. I know the Heat have a pretty young core as well, but maybe that will also cost them at some point (series is far from over) and they have more vets to rely on like Dragic, Butler and Jae. The oldest guy we have on the court is Kemba and he's the one feeling the pressure the most. I mean, I know Wanamaker is technically older, but he's a sophomore player in the league. I'm not making excuses. They should not be down 0-2, but it is what it is.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 18, 2020 16:44:03 GMT -5
They really need to change the replay rules. Like if you challenge and you're right you get to keep that challenge. Plus getting a few more a game or adding another ref that watches from a monitor. The Stevens had to waste his challenge on a clear play, then can't challenge the Kemba clear charge is crazy. If your going to call Tatum for using his arm to create space on drives, then call it on the Heat. I don't usually bitch about the Refs because it usually evens out and the other team usually feels the same way. Yet last game was extreme. They go from calling nothing to calling ticky tac stuff. Like pick a path and call it that way, don't keep flip flopping and call it the same on both teams. The refs literally accounted for a 6-0 run in less than a minute when they inexplicably reset the shot clock before the Crowder 4-point play. The Celtics were up 10 before that happened. Don’t get me wrong, it’s on the Celtics for letting that call affect them to the point of falling apart. But these types of momentum-changing calls are unacceptable considering how much NBA refs are paid. And that’s without even mentioning the call Brad had to use his challenge for, and the ridiculous inconstancy on blocks/charges. It’s about time they actually have some accountability when they screw up as badly as they have been this postseason. I actually think the shot clock was right - Celtics had possession then the jump ball. The dumb part was the lazy foul on Jaylen i think.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 18, 2020 22:56:59 GMT -5
You're just blaming the players and not the coach. The Raptors had a much older team, the Heat don't. They are playing a rookie, a second year guy in Robinson and a third year guy in Bam. We have the more experienced team with more playoff experience and in my opinion much more talented. Which is why the Heat and Raptors can't blow us out, yet we can't win the close games. Which for me comes down to coaching. I'm blaming everyone equally. I'm not sure how much more Stevens could have done and it's telling that every fan has a different theory. Play Grant! Don't play Grant! Play Timelord! Don't play Timelord! I just don't see the egregious mistake in coaching, he has his team in a good position to win and that hasn't happened. Some of it is his fault, but not the majority of it. Lack of depth and youth are the main culprits. I know the Heat have a pretty young core as well, but maybe that will also cost them at some point (series is far from over) and they have more vets to rely on like Dragic, Butler and Jae. The oldest guy we have on the court is Kemba and he's the one feeling the pressure the most. I mean, I know Wanamaker is technically older, but he's a sophomore player in the league. I'm not making excuses. They should not be down 0-2, but it is what it is. Okay I see now, we aren't talking shockingly bad type stuff, it's the little stuff. The stuff that makes the best coach. It's the stuff that makes Stevens top five or top ten, not if he's good or not. He's still one of the better coaches. Like I can't get over the third quarters, game after game. I don't see how that's the players.
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Post by Don Caballero on Sept 19, 2020 15:04:12 GMT -5
Okay I see now, we aren't talking shockingly bad type stuff, it's the little stuff. The stuff that makes the best coach. It's the stuff that makes Stevens top five or top ten, not if he's good or not. He's still one of the better coaches. Like I can't get over the third quarters, game after game. I don't see how that's the players. I feel like this could be a mental block kind of deal, they just stop executing after half-time. Stevens plays a part in that as well since he can't get guys out of that rut. I have a theory that is super hot takey and I'm going a bit off track, but bear with me. I think they're still feeling that OG shot. They were .5 seconds away from a 3-0 lead and I know, you know, we all know and they sure as hell know that they would be staring at a straight sweep or at worst a gentleman's sweep. Then they almost lose the series and you can see the pressure building bit by bit. They felt that tension, that creeping anxiety never went away. It has carried over to the Heat series, they're just not having any fun out there. It's a game after all, you're supposed to go out and try to style on fools. I have OCD (told this would go places) and it sucks when you're in a crisis with stuff that is in the right place but you can't stop obsessing over it. It's exhausting and I feel like they're experiencing something similar. They build a lead and then think like jesus christ I'm going to blow this, won't I? And then they lock up because they try to not let that thought get in, but it's too late baby. Like OCD, once it's there you can't think it away. I'm not advocating for Stevens to tell guys to go out there and have fun because they would get blown out by 30 points. But they need to play a bit more relaxed, so what if they lose? They're one of the last 4 teams standing, that's pretty good. They did the job. They should think that everything else now is supposed to be the bonus level. The Heat are crazy strong, but so what. Screw them. Play your ball and don't worry so much. As far as I'm concerned, we're one win away. Might as well make it tonight.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 19, 2020 17:07:05 GMT -5
Okay I see now, we aren't talking shockingly bad type stuff, it's the little stuff. The stuff that makes the best coach. It's the stuff that makes Stevens top five or top ten, not if he's good or not. He's still one of the better coaches. Like I can't get over the third quarters, game after game. I don't see how that's the players. I feel like this could be a mental block kind of deal, they just stop executing after half-time. Stevens plays a part in that as well since he can't get guys out of that rut. I have a theory that is super hot takey and I'm going a bit off track, but bear with me. I think they're still feeling that OG shot. They were .5 seconds away from a 3-0 lead and I know, you know, we all know and they sure as hell know that they would be staring at a straight sweep or at worst a gentleman's sweep. Then they almost lose the series and you can see the pressure building bit by bit. They felt that tension, that creeping anxiety never went away. It has carried over to the Heat series, they're just not having any fun out there. It's a game after all, you're supposed to go out and try to style on fools. I have OCD (told this would go places) and it sucks when you're in a crisis with stuff that is in the right place but you can't stop obsessing over it. It's exhausting and I feel like they're experiencing something similar. They build a lead and then think like jesus christ I'm going to blow this, won't I? And then they lock up because they try to not let that thought get in, but it's too late baby. Like OCD, once it's there you can't think it away. I'm not advocating for Stevens to tell guys to go out there and have fun because they would get blown out by 30 points. But they need to play a bit more relaxed, so what if they lose? They're one of the last 4 teams standing, that's pretty good. They did the job. They should think that everything else now is supposed to be the bonus level. The Heat are crazy strong, but so what. Screw them. Play your ball and don't worry so much. As far as I'm concerned, we're one win away. Might as well make it tonight. The thing is before that shot they had already lost seven straight 3rd quarters. I do think it affected Walker who finally just busted out. Couldn't it also be Stevens just runs out the same game plan to start the third and the other team adjusts? Then by the fourth Stevens adjusts again. You saw that last game with Kanter, it worked first half. Other team adjusts, he rolls him out again and then has to quickly pull him. That's why everyone was saying insert one of the Williams because Bam was acting like it was a dunk contest. I'd love for him to do something in the third that makes the other team adjusts and not the other way around. Like maybe don't insert Kanter in the first half which allows them to adjust, do it in the second half. Just something because like I said I don't see how it's on the players every game and it certainly wasn't the players last game. A crazy idea save full court press for the second half of a game, yet only use it in small spurts. Like I said something. That's what the Heat do, Butler even talked about how they save things for late in the games so the other team isn't ready for it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2020 17:38:07 GMT -5
Woj reporting Hayward will return tonight barring a setback in warmups
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2020 20:38:05 GMT -5
The Celtics are terrible at moving into passing lanes and giving good angles.
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Post by tizzle on Sept 19, 2020 21:22:08 GMT -5
I absolutely despise these refs
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2020 21:26:58 GMT -5
Here we go
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Post by rjp313jr on Sept 19, 2020 22:03:00 GMT -5
What is the actual fuck
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