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2019-20 Boston Celtics Season
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 15, 2019 13:24:30 GMT -5
This is the question this Celtics team will have. Do they have the guy who can score when things aren’t working as a team? They might but it’s to be determined. They have two guys who can do that in Kemba and Gordon (if healthy), two more guys who can score very well within the offense in Brown and Tatum and even some low post scoring in Kanter. I think the biggest question with the Celtics is interior defense and whether they can rebound enough. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2019 13:40:09 GMT -5
I guess I'm confused because you wanted to know when team play could trump talent. That Heat team had three players that were on a HOF track in their primes and the best player in the world. Dirk was a very good player, but the Mavs had way less talent and didn't even have the best player. They won because they played great team Basketball and the Heat didn't. Whoa... “Dirk was a very good player”.... is a gross understatement. Also, don’t forget that was a great Dallas team. Kidd and Marion were past their primes but still very good players who had that veteran presence. Tyson Chandler in his prime anchoring the middle. Great wing defenders in Butler and Brewer. Great shooting and the biggest point to all this they had Dirk. You typically need at least one guy who you can go to for buckets when nothing else is going right and can score regardless of the defense. This is the question this Celtics team will have. Do they have the guy who can score when things aren’t working as a team? They might but it’s to be determined. Not really that wasn't one of his dominate seasons, he averaged 23 points and 7 rebounds on the season. I'd say the same thing about Pierce, very good players but no where near the best in the game. Jason Kidd averaged 7.9 points and shot 36% on the season. Walker was an all NBA last season and a proven scorer for years now. Nevermind I'd say we have three more better scorers than that Mavs team had. Walker is like Irving, you can't stop him from getting his shots off. I have worries about this team, but it's not the ability to score. How many teams have four guys that can go off for 30 on any given night? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2019 13:43:20 GMT -5
This is the question this Celtics team will have. Do they have the guy who can score when things aren’t working as a team? They might but it’s to be determined. They have two guys who can do that in Kemba and Gordon (if healthy), two more guys who can score very well within the offense in Brown and Tatum and even some low post scoring in Kanter. I think the biggest question with the Celtics is interior defense and whether they can rebound enough. I’m not sure about Hayward with this - if he gets the ball in the right spots he can score but not sure he can just do it in iso when things get tough in the playoffs and the other D is locked in and your offense has broken down because you’re in a 7 game series and the other team can game plan in depth for you. Kemba - I tend to believe can be that guy, but we will see. If they keep attacking the basket the rebounding should be there. I feel like their biggest issue in past years is they never got offensive boards where as other teams did so it created an imbalance. When you attack the rim you get offensive rebounds as well. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2019 13:47:23 GMT -5
I'd say it was the Spurs who beat the Heat in 2014. Duncan was 37, not even an all-star. Leonard was crazy young and averaged 14 points in the playoffs. He wouldn't become an all-star for two more years. They didn't have a dominant take over a game type player. It was depth, great team play on a very well balanced team. They were top ten in offense and defense that year. The Pistons didn't have an all-star till they got Wallace at the deadline. Guys like Billups would go on to make it years later. I think it's safe to say this Celtics team is a lot more talented. Walker and Hayward are already all-stars and if they keep this up Tatum and Brown have a chance to be ones this year. Last year no one questioned talent level, almost everyone picked them to go to the finals. Yet this year, it's compare them to maybe the least talented team to ever win a title in recent memory. Walker is an upgrade over Irving and can easily take over games. Irving might be more talented, but his style of play hurts his value. There isn't that great Warriors team anymore, which is huge. Could be the Spurs, but don’t confuse stats will talent and ability when it comes to older players. Duncan was a beast in those playoffs he just picked his spots. Look at his numbers and efficiency. Same can be said for Ginóbili. But yes their ability to play team ball allowed for that. Those guys knew how to win though and still had the physical talent to dominate one on one when necessary. Duncan had a per of 21, Walker is currently at 24.5. Duncan was still a good player, but was a long way from being truly dominate like he was for most of his career. Can't Walker, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown take over games in stretches? Heck the 4th guy on this team in Brown took over playoff games two years ago and he looks a lot more talented right now. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2019 14:21:04 GMT -5
Whoa... “Dirk was a very good player”.... is a gross understatement. Also, don’t forget that was a great Dallas team. Kidd and Marion were past their primes but still very good players who had that veteran presence. Tyson Chandler in his prime anchoring the middle. Great wing defenders in Butler and Brewer. Great shooting and the biggest point to all this they had Dirk. You typically need at least one guy who you can go to for buckets when nothing else is going right and can score regardless of the defense. This is the question this Celtics team will have. Do they have the guy who can score when things aren’t working as a team? They might but it’s to be determined. Not really that wasn't one of his dominate seasons, he averaged 23 points and 7 rebounds on the season. I'd say the same thing about Pierce, very good players but no where near the best in the game. Jason Kidd averaged 7.9 points and shot 36% on the season. Dirk averaged almost 28 per in the playoffs and shot 46% from 3. Dirk was a complete stud... he won an MVP - he finished 3rd twice, was top 10 nine times and the year in question finished 6th... His career per is 22.4 over 18 seasons which is 28th all time. His offensive win shares are 6th all time and defensive win shares are 27th. Total wins shares 8th. All-NBA: 12 total: 1st team 4 times, 2nd team 5 times, 3rd team 3 times. ESPN - ranked Dirk as the 17th best player in NBA history and 3rd best power forward ever. B/R and CBS also put him at 17. Fox sports ranked him 21. Slam magazine 27. How can you say he wasn’t anywhere close to the best player in the NBA? Unless your definition is LeBron and no one else. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2019 14:25:34 GMT -5
Could be the Spurs, but don’t confuse stats will talent and ability when it comes to older players. Duncan was a beast in those playoffs he just picked his spots. Look at his numbers and efficiency. Same can be said for Ginóbili. But yes their ability to play team ball allowed for that. Those guys knew how to win though and still had the physical talent to dominate one on one when necessary. Duncan had a per of 21, Walker is currently at 24.5. Duncan was still a good player, but was a long way from being truly dominate like he was for most of his career. Can't Walker, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown take over games in stretches? Heck the 4th guy on this team in Brown took over playoff games two years ago and he looks a lot more talented right now. In the regular season for sure. In the playoffs when teams really good or great teams can game plan over a 7 game series, I am not positive but I suspect Kemba likely can. The point with Duncan is he could still take over for stretches. He proved that during that run. Pop was resting guys and playing the long game with that team. He kicked off this whole era of resting guys with that squad. Duncan was no longer the 82 game beast but he was still a beast in the playoffs when needed that year, no? By the way I jumped into this conversation to compare the 17-18 team talent with the 18-19 team talent not this years squad. There’s a lot of potential with this team but unanswered questions that can’t be answered until the test comes. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2019 15:14:42 GMT -5
Not really that wasn't one of his dominate seasons, he averaged 23 points and 7 rebounds on the season. I'd say the same thing about Pierce, very good players but no where near the best in the game. Jason Kidd averaged 7.9 points and shot 36% on the season. Dirk averaged almost 28 per in the playoffs and shot 46% from 3. Dirk was a complete stud... he won an MVP - he finished 3rd twice, was top 10 nine times and the year in question finished 6th... His career per is 22.4 over 18 seasons which is 28th all time. His offensive win shares are 6th all time and defensive win shares are 27th. Total wins shares 8th. All-NBA: 12 total: 1st team 4 times, 2nd team 5 times, 3rd team 3 times. ESPN - ranked Dirk as the 17th best player in NBA history and 3rd best power forward ever. B/R and CBS also put him at 17. Fox sports ranked him 21. Slam magazine 27. How can you say he wasn’t anywhere close to the best player in the NBA? Unless your definition is LeBron and no one else. I don't think there are more than a few Superstars in a given year, just my opinion, but I never looked at Dirk as an unstoppable Force like a LeBron, Durant, Greek Freak. He is more like a Curry in my book Dirk had some great years, but his championship year was his 9th best by win share and he was 10th that year, while Pierce was 8th. LeBron was 1st, Wade was 6th, and Bosh was 14th, only .8 behind Dirk. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 15, 2019 15:26:04 GMT -5
Duncan had a per of 21, Walker is currently at 24.5. Duncan was still a good player, but was a long way from being truly dominate like he was for most of his career. Can't Walker, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown take over games in stretches? Heck the 4th guy on this team in Brown took over playoff games two years ago and he looks a lot more talented right now. In the regular season for sure. In the playoffs when teams really good or great teams can game plan over a 7 game series, I am not positive but I suspect Kemba likely can. The point with Duncan is he could still take over for stretches. He proved that during that run. Pop was resting guys and playing the long game with that team. He kicked off this whole era of resting guys with that squad. Duncan was no longer the 82 game beast but he was still a beast in the playoffs when needed that year, no? By the way I jumped into this conversation to compare the 17-18 team talent with the 18-19 team talent not this years squad. There’s a lot of potential with this team but unanswered questions that can’t be answered until the test comes. Do you think Horford was a beast in 2017? I only ask because Duncan had a .204 win share per game that year, Horford was .192. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 15, 2019 15:43:57 GMT -5
I’m not sure about Hayward with this - if he gets the ball in the right spots he can score but not sure he can just do it in iso when things get tough in the playoffs and the other D is locked in and your offense has broken down because you’re in a 7 game series and the other team can game plan in depth for you. Gordon is a terrific scorer when healthy, he can beat you inside and outside and he's a good dribbler and passer. This is a rough comparison because they're different players, but he's like Klay Thompson in that he shouldn't be the primary scorer, but as a scrambling "nothing else works" kind of guy then he's certainly more than capable. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2019 18:58:32 GMT -5
Dirk averaged almost 28 per in the playoffs and shot 46% from 3. Dirk was a complete stud... he won an MVP - he finished 3rd twice, was top 10 nine times and the year in question finished 6th... His career per is 22.4 over 18 seasons which is 28th all time. His offensive win shares are 6th all time and defensive win shares are 27th. Total wins shares 8th. All-NBA: 12 total: 1st team 4 times, 2nd team 5 times, 3rd team 3 times. ESPN - ranked Dirk as the 17th best player in NBA history and 3rd best power forward ever. B/R and CBS also put him at 17. Fox sports ranked him 21. Slam magazine 27. How can you say he wasn’t anywhere close to the best player in the NBA? Unless your definition is LeBron and no one else. I don't think there are more than a few Superstars in a given year, just my opinion, but I never looked at Dirk as an unstoppable Force like a LeBron, Durant, Greek Freak. He is more like a Curry in my book Dirk had some great years, but his championship year was his 9th best by win share and he was 10th that year, while Pierce was 8th. LeBron was 1st, Wade was 6th, and Bosh was 14th, only .8 behind Dirk. I don’t know man, if a top 20 player of all time isn’t a superstar to you then I’m not sure what to say. Your bar is insane. Also, who cares what his regular season was that year (He did finish 6th in MVP tho) and was hurt during the year but it’s all irrelevant. The point is when it matter he was able to be the best version of himself which is that of a superstar. His playoffs stats were better than his regular season stats and we are talking about a stats ability to carry a team thru the playoffs. Dirk did / plain and simple. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2019 19:00:32 GMT -5
In the regular season for sure. In the playoffs when teams really good or great teams can game plan over a 7 game series, I am not positive but I suspect Kemba likely can. The point with Duncan is he could still take over for stretches. He proved that during that run. Pop was resting guys and playing the long game with that team. He kicked off this whole era of resting guys with that squad. Duncan was no longer the 82 game beast but he was still a beast in the playoffs when needed that year, no? By the way I jumped into this conversation to compare the 17-18 team talent with the 18-19 team talent not this years squad. There’s a lot of potential with this team but unanswered questions that can’t be answered until the test comes. Do you think Horford was a beast in 2017? I only ask because Duncan had a .204 win share per game that year, Horford was .192. I said Duncan was a beast during that playoff run when they needed him to be. There’s a difference. He was still a guy they could give the ball to in a big spot when they needed a bucket and he delivered time and again. |
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Post by dirtywater43 on Nov 15, 2019 19:52:35 GMT -5
I don't think there are more than a few Superstars in a given year, just my opinion, but I never looked at Dirk as an unstoppable Force like a LeBron, Durant, Greek Freak. He is more like a Curry in my book Dirk had some great years, but his championship year was his 9th best by win share and he was 10th that year, while Pierce was 8th. LeBron was 1st, Wade was 6th, and Bosh was 14th, only .8 behind Dirk. I don’t know man, if a top 20 player of all time isn’t a superstar to you then I’m not sure what to say. Your bar is insane. Everyone in the entire basketball community will agree that Dirk is a generational talent and arguably a top 25 player of all time. Everyone. Trying to side step this fact to try and to win a argument, makes me want to dismiss any thought beyond it. It's a non starter. Knocking down Dirk makes anyone look bad. He was nasty that year in the play-offs and unstoppable. He showed why he was a HOF in that playoff stretch alone. What I wouldn't give to have a Dirk in his prime right now on this team. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 15, 2019 22:59:59 GMT -5
Don’t overlook tomorrow’s game even though GS sucks. 3rd game in 5 days and have to fly across the country. Damn RJP you were spot on. Team looks exhausted early on and they're playing like they never saw any defense running a zone. |
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 15, 2019 23:25:11 GMT -5
Christ the Warriors are so bad they're basically forcing the Celtics back into the game lol.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 16, 2019 0:13:33 GMT -5
The officials are also so bad and forcing the Warriors back in the game.
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 16, 2019 0:31:54 GMT -5
I hope terrible things happen to these officials. But it’s pathetic how Brad just let’s let roll over his team and does nothing about it.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 16, 2019 1:12:43 GMT -5
Great win. I mean, it's a bad win because it's a tight game against the worst team in the league lol but the Warriors gave it a legit go and played with crazy intensity and even got very lucky with some balls going their way. The Celtics had a terrible body language all night, guys were way visibly off and yet they tough it out. They lose this game if this was last season's team.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Nov 16, 2019 5:45:24 GMT -5
Great win. I mean, it's a bad win because it's a tight game against the worst team in the league lol but the Warriors gave it a legit go and played with crazy intensity and even got very lucky with some balls going their way. The Celtics had a terrible body language all night, guys were way visibly off and yet they tough it out. They lose this game if this was last season's team. Warriors I heard got embarrassed by the Lakers the other night, so they came ready to fight at least. Talent took over tonight for the Celtics. Good thing, because they were definitely visibly tired like you said Don. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2019 8:17:40 GMT -5
I want to rip this team (except Jaylen and Marcus) for last night but I can’t considering the circumstances. It was bound to be an off game and the fact that they pulled it out is a good thing. I will give some observations though.
1. Does Brad Stevens just suck on challenges or are their rules I don’t know? He challenges the dumbest stuff super early in games. What exactly are the challenge rules anyways?
2. Tatum’s finishing reminds me of Jaylens from 3 years ago. Just throwing things at the backboard or rim. 24 points but on 23 shots. He’s playing well overall though but if he was finishing around the rim he’s be a stud right now. It’s equal parts frustrating and encouraging.
3. Jaylen Brown is silky smooth right now.
4. Starting to really like Wanamaker
5. Did Robert Williams get hurt again or was it just a minutes restriction?
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 16, 2019 8:20:45 GMT -5
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,861
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 16, 2019 9:22:25 GMT -5
I want to rip this team (except Jaylen and Marcus) for last night but I can’t considering the circumstances. It was bound to be an off game and the fact that they pulled it out is a good thing. I will give some observations though. 1. Does Brad Stevens just suck on challenges or are their rules I don’t know? He challenges the dumbest stuff super early in games. What exactly are the challenge rules anyways? 2. Tatum’s finishing reminds me of Jaylens from 3 years ago. Just throwing things at the backboard or rim. 24 points but on 23 shots. He’s playing well overall though but if he was finishing around the rim he’s be a stud right now. It’s equal parts frustrating and encouraging. 3. Jaylen Brown is silky smooth right now. 4. Starting to really like Wanamaker 5. Did Robert Williams get hurt again or was it just a minutes restriction? I would rip them more if last night didn’t feature some of the sketchiest officiating you’ll ever see. Aside from the 27-3 free throw advantage for the Warriors at one point in the second half, there were some inexcusable calls and no calls late. The non-foul call on Tatum’s breakaway layup was bad, but the non-call when Theis got hacked by Draymond was grounds for throwing that ref into a volcano. And no one will talk about it since it worked out in the C’s favkr, but calling Smart out when he clearly saved the ball to Jaylen almost cost the Celtics a possession. I’m glad you brought up the Tatum finishing aspect, though. One of the things that always stood out to me about Jaylen’s rookie year is how comfortable he looked attacking the basket - even if the finishing wasn’t quite there yet. Flash forward a couple seasons, and we’re seeing the result. It’s been frustrating watching Tatum’s inability to finish around the rim, but I think it’s an overall positive development that he can seemingly get there whenever he wants. |
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Post by philarhody on Nov 16, 2019 9:36:32 GMT -5
One thing to remember about the strength of this team is it goes beyond perusing for superstar numbers. Brown and Tatum are excellent defenders, Smart is elite, and with the exception of Kemba and Kanter, every rotational player on this team is a good defender. Even Kemba is an upgrade over IT or sulking Kyrie.
I’m starting to think about whether there is a ceiling on Brown. The way he has improved his game is reminiscent of Kawhi and Pascal Siakim. His focus and work ethic should be applauded. When he came into the league he had an iffy handle, a limited three point shot, and narrow court vision.
Tatum on the other hand makes me a little bit nervous. He’s a total one foot jumper, which means he needs a running start to finish strong at the rim. Good finishers can typically finish off two feet or either foot (See Kyrie). Great finishers can absorb contact off one foot and still finish easily (See James Harden).
If Tatum continues to work on his technique, I think he is gifted enough to become a skilled one or two foot finisher at the rim. I’m not sure he has the base, however, to become a Harden or Kawhi type finisher at the rim who draws contact and earns free throws. Jaylen Brown on the other hand, does have this potential
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wcp3
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 16, 2019 9:55:43 GMT -5
The good news for Tatum is that he doesn’t need Harden, Kawhi, or Kyrie finishing skills to become an elite scorer. He just needs to be a good finisher, which will open up the rest of his game for him. I think he’ll start getting more calls too.
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 16, 2019 11:14:25 GMT -5
I hope terrible things happen to these officials. But it’s pathetic how Brad just let’s let roll over his team and does nothing about it. If you were in charge their wouldn't be any refs, they would all be dead. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 16, 2019 12:17:54 GMT -5
I don't think there are more than a few Superstars in a given year, just my opinion, but I never looked at Dirk as an unstoppable Force like a LeBron, Durant, Greek Freak. He is more like a Curry in my book Dirk had some great years, but his championship year was his 9th best by win share and he was 10th that year, while Pierce was 8th. LeBron was 1st, Wade was 6th, and Bosh was 14th, only .8 behind Dirk. I don’t know man, if a top 20 player of all time isn’t a superstar to you then I’m not sure what to say. Your bar is insane. Also, who cares what his regular season was that year (He did finish 6th in MVP tho) and was hurt during the year but it’s all irrelevant. The point is when it matter he was able to be the best version of himself which is that of a superstar. His playoffs stats were better than his regular season stats and we are talking about a stats ability to carry a team thru the playoffs. Dirk did / plain and simple. Do you remember our debate on Horford and the HOF, you thought win shares were crazy because he was on Pace to be top 70 to top 80ish all time? Win shares is a very useful stat, but I don't think Dirk was equal to Duncan or better than KG and I certainly don't think he was over 25% better than Bird. Heck I love Pierce, to this day my favorite player all time to watch, but I don't think he's top 20 all-time like he's ranked in win shares either. A quick look at the lists, I don't rank Dirk top 20. Heck I think Pierce was a better two way player than Dirk was and a big difference in the win shares is Dirk playing an extra 6,000 minutes in his career. He had a very long and very healthy career. I wouldn't rate Chris Webber in front of Dirk all-time, but at his peak I think he was a better more impactful two way player. He just didn't have a very long and healthy career. You wanna say he's a top 20 scorer in NBA history I can buy that 100%, I don't think he was one of the top 20 most impactful players. Off the top of my head I think Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley and even current day Davis were more impactful players overall. |
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