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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 4, 2020 23:53:44 GMT -5
The sad part is if Gonsolin was in this trade, it would have been a great trade.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 4, 2020 23:55:02 GMT -5
Not gonna argue with two people at once but I'll just say this. I don't think Bloom is entirely free of fault because ultimately he's the one who was negotiating but if people don't think that Bloom had ownership at his throat making him do this then your blinders are on embarrassingly tight. It truly couldn't be more obvious, no matter how much it sucks, and it consistently amazes me how voraciously people will defend these billionaire owners.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Feb 4, 2020 23:55:10 GMT -5
It’s hilarious because a guy some people are trying to shit on is about to leapfrog Casas as our #1 prospect lol Because the farm system sucks.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 4, 2020 23:56:12 GMT -5
The sad part is if Gonsolin was in this trade, it would have been a great trade. I'm still holding out hope by the am there's some 16 year old kids or whatever coming back this way. If not, it's a fine deal. They really should keep working at trading more pieces away and focus on 2021 and beyond.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 4, 2020 23:56:14 GMT -5
The sad part is if Gonsolin was in this trade, it would have been a great trade. Do you mean in addition to or instead of Graterol? The former, I agree.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 4, 2020 23:56:45 GMT -5
I'm so confused. It might turn out great, but it seems crazy risky. It feels like the Lester trade, instead of take the best offer, we had to get certain things. I don't get paying over 50% of Price's salary and getting this return. Add a guy like Downs and it makes sense. Heck I might have preferred the Padres rumored offers given this.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 4, 2020 23:57:55 GMT -5
Not gonna argue with two people at once but I'll just say this. I don't think Bloom is entirely free of fault because ultimately he's the one who was negotiating but if people don't think that Bloom had ownership at his throat making him do this then your blinders are on embarrassingly tight. It truly couldn't be more obvious, no matter how much it sucks, and it consistently amazes me how voraciously people will defend these billionaire owners. The only point I'll argue on this is literally no team stays over the cap. Not the Dodgers. Not the Yankees. Not the Red Sox. No one. This is the casualty of finally wanting to go back under. The Yankees will go through this at some point.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 4, 2020 23:58:29 GMT -5
The sad part is if Gonsolin was in this trade, it would have been a great trade. Do you mean in addition to or instead of Graterol? The former, I agree. Yeah in addition to the other pieces.
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Post by levi on Feb 4, 2020 23:58:29 GMT -5
Revisiting the initial poll from the Mookie trade thread:
Two 55+ FV prospects, plus some low minors upside filler --- 37 votes (40.66%) One 55+ FV prospect, multiple 45-50 FV level guys --- 28 votes (30.77%) One 55+ FV prospect, multiple low minors upside fillers --- 12 votes (13.19%) Cost-controlled current MLB contributors --- 7 votes (7.69%) Limited prospect return, but attach a bad contract to Mookie --- 0 votes (0.00%)
Fangraphs --- Verdugo and Graterol are both 50 FV prospects. MLB.com --- Verdugo and Graterol are both 55 FV prospects.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Feb 4, 2020 23:59:46 GMT -5
I love Mookie and have much respect for Price, but first and foremost... I’m a Sox fan. This team is more one or two players. I don’t love this deal but I’m not going to take my toys and go home, throw a temper tantrum, and never watch a game again either. I get the frustration but this team will be fine. We may not win the WS this year but I’m still gonna be cheering them on, engaging with all of you on this website, and rooting for the Yankees to explode. We’re gonna be okay, gang. Edit: I meant to say rooting for the Yankees to implode but I think I’ll keep my original sentence.
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orion09
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Post by orion09 on Feb 5, 2020 0:02:40 GMT -5
Why would you not wait until the trade deadline to deal Price? His value would almost certainly be higher and you could likely get several teams involved in a bidding war.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 0:02:54 GMT -5
The whole trading your 27 year old MVP is part of the terrible job he is doing. Absurdly stupid. Beyond reasonable thought. People keep saying this, but it doesn't make it more true. Henry mandated the Red Sox cut cost. Not that the trade away their 27 year old MVP for pennies on the dollar. Mookie Betts is an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season. You are just as likely to sign him if he's there or here. This was already a very mediocre team going into this season. David Price is old and injury prone. You got back a young power hitter who you control for 5 years and a power arm. There's a real chance the kid they just got provides more value than Price in 2 years. Again, the Sox accomplished their goals here and acquired REAL young talent. If you want to blame anyone for losing Betts then blame Dombrowski. If not for Eovaldi and Sale, you'd have the money for Betts. I'm actually glad they're shedding pieces and positioning themselves to get younger and maybe a decent draft pick. Well, they accomplished their goal of dropping under the luxury tax limit. So yeah, there's that. I don't even really disagree about your assessment of a Mookie-led Red Sox team in 2020. I probably would have taken my chances that they compete and kept Betts if the return wasn't overwhelming, but it's not hard to see a scenario where the bullpen is mediocre, the rotation is disappointing if Sale is either hurt or not at the top of his game and if Eovaldi contributes very little. There was no money to improve the team and realistically they were nowhere near as good as the Yankees and with teams like Chicago, the Angels, and TB upgrading, and Oakland and even Cleveland still hanging around, the Wild Card was hardly a guarantee. So I get that. What concerns me is that it seems to me the Red Sox really wanted that starting pitching prospects. They were rebuffed for May. They couldn't come to any agreement on any of the young Dodgers pitchers? And they couldn't get another prospect? Their inability to get Downs was disappointing to me and not even getting a catcher in a catcher-rich system like the Dodgers was also disappointing. I mean, the Dodgers gave up so very little, to get so very much. I would think they'd have to give up somebody of May, Gonsolin, Ruiz, Gray, or Downs, and they gave up nobody. If Gammons was right and Caleb Ferguson was a guy the Dodgers wanted the Sox to take and they passed because they thought he wouldn't be a starter, it makes sense to me why they'd turn to Minnesota and get Maeda to give to Minny for Graterol. But the issue is Graterol, despite his electric arm, is probably more likely to be the closer than a #2 or #3 starter, so is that better than taking Downs, a catcher perhaps, and a lesser arm like Ferguson? I'm speculating on who would have been in another Dodgers package and it'll be interesting to find out about it. But it seems to me this whole trade hinges on Graterol being a viable top to mid rotation starter. Verdugo looks like a guy who has some power - I wouldn't call him a power hitter, can hit and play defense - a bit like a young Shane Victorino without his speed. But he also has back issues and has had some questionable attitude issues as well. I think had the Sox gotten more from LA like Downs the deal would have sat better with me, but just getting those two and having to throw in Price at half his salary - the return feels light. But I guess I had it right when I said be prepared to be disappointed with the return. I can only hope that now that the luxury tax is no longer an issue, the Sox are prepared to offer Mookie a Godfather offer in the next offseason and get him back because we will NEVER see a player of that caliber on the Sox again - a player who excelled at EVERY aspect of baseball, on and off the field. But like it was wishful thinking that we'd see the Sox get more for Mookie and Price, it's probably wishful thinking the Sox do everything in their power to bring Mookie back -as there would be no luxury tax premium to pay. Unfortunately I think Mookie has already played the last game he'll ever play for the Red Sox. Frankly, 12 year deals are ridiculous, but I would offer him 10 years $360 million and two incentive based option years to get him to his 12 years $420 million and see if he goes for it. But of course now I think LA will do everything it takes to re-sign him at the end of the year.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:02:57 GMT -5
It’s hilarious because a guy some people are trying to shit on is about to leapfrog Casas as our #1 prospect lol Because the farm system sucks. Does Casas suck?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:03:32 GMT -5
The guy you’re trying to tear down is now the Sox #1 prospect Also this was pointed out to me by one of you pages and pages ago- go take a look at Kenta’s contract, how much he is worth relative to that, and the fact that the twins wanted to add another starter In an effort to win now to have a better understanding on why they did it At first I thought it was a bad move by them but I get it now. I mean it’s kind of an indictment on how good Graterol can be in the future when he is 20 and pitched himself into a trade for a proven, good, and cheap, major league starting pitcher. He’s obviously got question marks. With the kind of arm talent he has if he didn’t then he would be completely untouchable. But the possible reward there is massive. And honestly his “flaming out” probably means he’s a high leverage reliever I wasn’t trying to “tear down” anybody. I was simply asking a question. Stop trying to read between the lines. If Graterol does become the #1 prospect I think it’s more a reflection of the system then it is of him. I was talking to the guy I quoted and not you......?
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Post by incandenza on Feb 5, 2020 0:04:27 GMT -5
Right now I have the Red Sox at 84.5 wins for 2020. For 2021, they will be about 50 million under the draft pick tax after arbitration. Bradley is the only free agent. Things will be fine. And this is why I am not getting on the "Bloom sucks" and "Henry is a moustache-twirling villain" trains, even though I am very sad about this trade right now. It may be that this was necessary in order to be able to sign Mookie Betts next off-season. Maybe it was trading one year of Mookie for 10 or 12. I also think it's a good sign that the two players we got back are not far-off prospects but figure to be contributors in 2021-22, when we still have Bogaerts and Devers, et al. It seems like there's a vision about how to build the team for the long term. And you know who totally would have made a trade like this, by the way? The Tampa Bay Rays. And they probably would have made it work out too. So I don't like this trade. I'm angry and sad about it. But beyond that reaction, there's no need to judge anything right now. Give it a year or two, then let's see where we're at.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Feb 5, 2020 0:07:44 GMT -5
So we couldn’t keep Price and get more for Mookie? Really?
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 0:09:35 GMT -5
The Sox will have 31 million dollars in AAV dead money in 2020 and 2021 in both Pedrioa and Price. They will have 17 million in AAV dead money in 2022 with Price. That's 15-20 percent of the payroll in dead money you can't do nothing with. This trade does very little to create financial flexibility.
At most, you can extend Devers now.
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Post by willacky on Feb 5, 2020 0:11:24 GMT -5
Floor of an elite reliever, ceiling of a front line starter at the age of 20 sounds like a great pitching prospect. This is a great get. People often forget how valuable elite relievers are nowadays.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Feb 5, 2020 0:14:54 GMT -5
Floor of an elite reliever, ceiling of a front line starter at the age of 20 sounds like a great pitching prospect. This is a great get. People often forget how valuable elite relievers are nowadays. How many top 5 players in baseball get traded for a reliever and a good OF prospect? Sure, I get we traded Price as well but we ended up paying more than half his remaining contract to do so. You’re telling me we couldn’t wait for Price to re establish his value and then work the phones to deal him? If you were going to cash in on the “Mookie trade chip” then you needed to get it right. Hard to believe Verdugo and Graterol is the best we could do.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 0:16:57 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling that Springer will be the big get for the Sox next off-season. Not Mookie, due to price.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 5, 2020 0:17:19 GMT -5
Man, this sucks.
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orion09
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Post by orion09 on Feb 5, 2020 0:19:31 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 0:20:34 GMT -5
I have a bad feeling that Springer will be the big get for the Sox next off-season. Not Mookie, due to price. I was thinking the same thing. I think the Sox will wind up with Springer in 2021. Springer grew up a Red Sox fan and is from New Britain, CT. Not hard to see him wanting to come back home and play for his favorite team growing up.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:20:39 GMT -5
Floor of an elite reliever, ceiling of a front line starter at the age of 20 sounds like a great pitching prospect. This is a great get. People often forget how valuable elite relievers are nowadays. How many top 5 players in baseball get traded for a reliever and a good OF prospect? Sure, I get we traded Price as well but we ended up paying more than half his remaining contract to do so. You’re telling me we couldn’t wait for Price to re establish his value and then work the phones to deal him? If you were going to cash in on the “Mookie trade chip” then you needed to get it right. Hard to believe Verdugo and Graterol is the best we could do. The prospect is a 3 WAR starter on a stacked team and the reliever holds his high 90’s velocity late into games and was only a reliever because the twins wanted him to impact them last year AS A 20 YEAR OLD (he pitched in the playoffs against the Yankees and did well) For the third time, I get being upset about Mookie. I do not understand downplaying what they got in order to be more upset, especially when rosenthal again has come out and said he intends on hitting FA
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:24:46 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s).
Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline.
Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here.
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