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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Feb 5, 2020 0:27:27 GMT -5
The absolute worst trade I can remember. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb trade. They could have held onto both and maybe contended this year. They got 2 guys who may not even be significant players at all. How many guys with shoulder problems go on to great pitching careers? I would think not many statistically. They could have had a year of all star performance and got a top pick when Mookie left potentially. Even Price could have been of some value. Dumb trade. They might as well go full Florida Marlins now after this. Didn't even get full money from the Dodgers? Just awful.
I'm serious. Go full Florida Marlins in epic Loria mode. But first fire the GM and get someone with a brain.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,697
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:29:01 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s). Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline. Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here. One year of Betts alone for those two is absolutely not light Greinke has been an elite pitcher logging 200+ innings each of the last 3 years. But yeah he’s the same as Price, very comparable lol
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 0:30:48 GMT -5
Mookie Betts is an unrestricted free agent at the end of the season. You are just as likely to sign him if he's there or here. This was already a very mediocre team going into this season. David Price is old and injury prone. You got back a young power hitter who you control for 5 years and a power arm. There's a real chance the kid they just got provides more value than Price in 2 years. Again, the Sox accomplished their goals here and acquired REAL young talent. If you want to blame anyone for losing Betts then blame Dombrowski. If not for Eovaldi and Sale, you'd have the money for Betts. I'm actually glad they're shedding pieces and positioning themselves to get younger and maybe a decent draft pick. Well, they accomplished their goal of dropping under the luxury tax limit. So yeah, there's that. I don't even really disagree about your assessment of a Mookie-led Red Sox team in 2020. I probably would have taken my chances that they compete and kept Betts if the return wasn't overwhelming, but it's not hard to see a scenario where the bullpen is mediocre, the rotation is disappointing if Sale is either hurt or not at the top of his game and if Eovaldi contributes very little. There was no money to improve the team and realistically they were nowhere near as good as the Yankees and with teams like Chicago, the Angels, and TB upgrading, and Oakland and even Cleveland still hanging around, the Wild Card was hardly a guarantee. So I get that. What concerns me is that it seems to me the Red Sox really wanted that starting pitching prospects. They were rebuffed for May. They couldn't come to any agreement on any of the young Dodgers pitchers? And they couldn't get another prospect? Their inability to get Downs was disappointing to me and not even getting a catcher in a catcher-rich system like the Dodgers was also disappointing. I mean, the Dodgers gave up so very little, to get so very much. I would think they'd have to give up somebody of May, Gonsolin, Ruiz, Gray, or Downs, and they gave up nobody. If Gammons was right and Caleb Ferguson was a guy the Dodgers wanted the Sox to take and they passed because they thought he wouldn't be a starter, it makes sense to me why they'd turn to Minnesota and get Maeda to give to Minny for Graterol. But the issue is Graterol, despite his electric arm, is probably more likely to be the closer than a #2 or #3 starter, so is that better than taking Downs, a catcher perhaps, and a lesser arm like Ferguson? I'm speculating on who would have been in another Dodgers package and it'll be interesting to find out about it. But it seems to me this whole trade hinges on Graterol being a viable top to mid rotation starter. Verdugo looks like a guy who has some power - I wouldn't call him a power hitter, can hit and play defense - a bit like a young Shane Victorino without his speed. But he also has back issues and has had some questionable attitude issues as well. I think had the Sox gotten more from LA like Downs the deal would have sat better with me, but just getting those two and having to throw in Price at half his salary - the return feels light. But I guess I had it right when I said be prepared to be disappointed with the return. I can only hope that now that the luxury tax is no longer an issue, the Sox are prepared to offer Mookie a Godfather offer in the next offseason and get him back because we will NEVER see a player of that caliber on the Sox again - a player who excelled at EVERY aspect of baseball, on and off the field. But like it was wishful thinking that we'd see the Sox get more for Mookie and Price, it's probably wishful thinking the Sox do everything in their power to bring Mookie back -as there would be no luxury tax premium to pay. Unfortunately I think Mookie has already played the last game he'll ever play for the Red Sox. Frankly, 12 year deals are ridiculous, but I would offer him 10 years $360 million and two incentive based option years to get him to his 12 years $420 million and see if he goes for it. But of course now I think LA will do everything it takes to re-sign him at the end of the year. I hate this mobile page... just lost a long reply because I was looking up JD Martinez contract status. /end rant. Long story short, the Red Sox are vastly under for 2021. They have Pedroia off the books after 2021. JD Martinez can opt out after next season or else he'll be off the books after 2022. Price's remaining 16 million and Eovaldi will also be off after 2022 (I want to confirm this but I'm afraid of losing this again). Brusdar Graterol has arm issues. Verdugo has back issues. This is the only reason why they were ever made available to you. You weren't going to get high end talent without risk. Mookie Betts can leave after this year. Verdugo is a good contact hitter and is young in which I believe the power will start to come. Graterol could be a closer, but still hoping he's an electric 2. He could be more valuable than David Price in year 2 because Price is old, injury prone and has diminishing stuff. There's always a possibility his special elbow pops and he finally gets TJ. In fact, I don't see how Price is anymore risky than Graterol except Graterol has less experience, but better stuff at this point. I really hope they use the reset penalties and extra space to re-sign Betts instead of passing off George Springer as the guy. I do wish they could have preyed just one catcher from them, they could even pick. I don't care. I do like having more bodies just from an attrition standpoint. Somebody is bound to succeed.
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Post by hammerhead on Feb 5, 2020 0:31:03 GMT -5
I'm really bummed out, not so much because of the return (I actually think Graterol could be the next Sabathia type), but because Mookie means more to me than getting under the luxury tax or even high ceiling prospects. To think we're only going to see that smile, that lip curl and that swing in highlight reels... kills me.
I know he may have walked after the season, but one more season of watching him meant things were right in the world, if only for another year. This trade sends one big message... There's no more: "We're the Boston freaking Red Sox, we'll fight tooth and nail to keep our homegrown stars, we'll do whatever it takes to keep the guys who play the game right, we'll take advantage of every year where we can possibly win."
I never was one of those guys striving to be the Tampa Bay Rays... I guess ownership went a different way though.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 0:31:12 GMT -5
Last thought, but I don't know why a guy like Pollock couldn't be included in this deal instead of dead money. At least you can do something with AJ Pollock. LA could have just kept Nov Pederson after the deal and platooned him.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:32:19 GMT -5
Btw, Verdugo was the best fit for the Sox of all players discussed, so that part is great. But Downs or another player needed to come over with Verdugo and Graterol (who is a fine sub for Gray or Gonsolin), and that would have left us with Price. Half his salary could easily have been dumped by trading 100% of the remaining contract value later this year for more prospects.
Trading these two guys should have added 5 players at the absolute minimum.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 5, 2020 0:35:29 GMT -5
I hope ownership knows they won't have next year's first round pick taken, as there's obviously a decent chance it'll be quite high. Olney recently suggested the investigation is very much active and the league thinks they have something, so I don't know how they could be so confident. Having a 73 win season while watching the first round pick get taken is some added nightmare fuel.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 0:35:30 GMT -5
Why would you not wait until the trade deadline to deal Price? His value would almost certainly be higher and you could likely get several teams involved in a bidding war. What if he's hurt or sucks?
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Post by manfred on Feb 5, 2020 0:35:58 GMT -5
I’ll say it: if the Sox are going to be hopeless, I would rather they traded everyone but Mookie and sign him to a crazy deal than suck with charisma blackholes. Either way, they are hopeless short and long run, and they lose the best homegrown player since Yaz. 12/$420 million? Done. Clear Sale, Price, X, CVaz, Eovaldi... add Devers if you gave to. Just a question of which way you want yo be bad.
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Post by chr31ter on Feb 5, 2020 0:37:17 GMT -5
They could have had a year of all star performance and got a top pick when Mookie left potentially. I mean... one year of Mookie and a 4th/5th round compensation pick, or five years of Alex Verdugo? If you don't view yourself as a serious World Series contender in 2020, I don't think this is a difficult choice.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:38:40 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s). Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline. Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here. One year of Betts alone for those two is absolutely not light Greinke has been an elite pitcher logging 200+ innings each of the last 3 years. But yeah he’s the same as Price, very comparable lol You had two division rivals bidding. You came out with two high ceiling guys with injury histories. That makes the return light. David Price delivered a Championship in 2018, but you can’t remember that. Teams wanting to get the final piece to push them over the line in June would remember it though.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:40:53 GMT -5
Why would you not wait until the trade deadline to deal Price? His value would almost certainly be higher and you could likely get several teams involved in a bidding war. What if he's hurt or sucks? You might get nothing then. But you got negative value now, so...
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Post by malynn19 on Feb 5, 2020 0:44:39 GMT -5
He's been very good since he got his changeup working again in the 2018 postseason and I'm sure the Dodgers know it. Really don't understand the hate for David Price, it's not like he had a Eovaldi year. I hope he picks up another ring with the Dodgers, man I miss being a fan of the team that actually wanted to win above all else. Lol, clown.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,697
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:44:57 GMT -5
One year of Betts alone for those two is absolutely not light Greinke has been an elite pitcher logging 200+ innings each of the last 3 years. But yeah he’s the same as Price, very comparable lol You had two division rivals bidding. You came out with two high ceiling guys with injury histories. That makes the return light. David Price delivered a Championship in 2018, but you can’t remember that. Teams wanting to get the final piece to push them over the line in June would remember it though. Lol I literally already said in this thread that I appreciate Price and think the hate he gets is dumb I also remember that he’s thrown 2000+ innings and can’t stay on the field 2 of the last 3 years. Now do you think that will be more of an issue or less of an issue as he gets older?
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,697
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 0:45:43 GMT -5
What if he's hurt or sucks? You might get nothing then. But you got negative value now, so... You’re right, graterol and Verdugo are worse than nothing Lol this place can be hilarious
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Post by orion09 on Feb 5, 2020 0:47:50 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s). Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline. Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here. Exactly how I feel. Not totally against trading Mookie or Price. I understand the calculus. It's just that the return is so underwhelming. The trade that Gammons discussed for Mookie (Verdugo and Downs plus a pitcher) was in the right ballpark. Instead, we threw in Price (a true #2 starter), SUBSIDIZED HIS SALARY, and got back LESS then the initial report. I sure hope the Sox picked correctly with Graterol.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 5, 2020 0:53:00 GMT -5
Loved watching Mookie but I'm not overly disappointed here relative to the long run.
A. we got under the tax which means improved draft and IFA position in a strong draft year. B. We got considerably younger. C. If the Dodgers had to trade Maeda to the Twins to get Graterol then the Sox must value Graterol over any the Dodgers had to offer including Maeta. D. We've traded 1 year of Mookie (if the Sox don't go under this year and reset, they had no shot at signing him next year) and 3 years of a declining Price for 5 years of 22 year old Verdugo and 6 years of 20 year old Graterol who is MLB's #83 prospect (2019 rank) and has pitched in the playoffs.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:53:06 GMT -5
You might get nothing then. But you got negative value now, so... You’re right, graterol and Verdugo are worse than nothing Lol this place can be hilarious The post of mine you quoted is about Price, not Betts. The question was what if Price was hurt or sucked at the deadline. I responded you might get nothing for Price then — but argued you got nothing for Price now. Most people thought Betts alone would get Verdugo, Downs and a pitcher. So it appears they got less than that return while including Price and maybe $15MM per yr so he could play for another team.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 0:53:38 GMT -5
Again, I think the fact that: A. Price didn't opt out. B. The Red Sox felt compelled to take on half his contract
Should tell you all you need to know about how MLB felt about David Price.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 5, 2020 0:54:19 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s). Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline. Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here. Exactly how I feel. Not totally against trading Mookie or Price. I understand the calculus. It's just that the return is so underwhelming. The trade that Gammons discussed for Mookie (Verdugo and Downs plus a pitcher) was in the right ballpark. Instead, we threw in Price (a true #2 starter), SUBSIDIZED HIS SALARY, and got back LESS then the initial report. I sure hope the Sox picked correctly with Graterol. So two of us wrote the same thing at the same time. Maybe not entirely laughable.
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Post by hammerhead on Feb 5, 2020 0:54:23 GMT -5
Graterol sounds like a cross between Gatorade and Geritol.
"Graterol, the thirst quencher for the golden generation.... Now available in Mountain Mist Prune, the new flavor that keeps you regular."
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Post by wildsox on Feb 5, 2020 0:55:02 GMT -5
It's obviously a sad day as Sox fan.
I prepared myself for the fact we wouldn't get a massive return for Mookie with him in the last year of his deal and taking on Price's contract.
With that being said, I'm excited to watch Verdugo and Devers bash together for the next few years. The new cornerstones
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Post by orion09 on Feb 5, 2020 0:57:20 GMT -5
God, between Cora and this, what an absolute horseshit offseason.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Feb 5, 2020 0:57:50 GMT -5
The absolute worst trade I can remember. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb trade. They could have held onto both and maybe contended this year. They got 2 guys who may not even be significant players at all. How many guys with shoulder problems go on to great pitching careers? I would think not many statistically. They could have had a year of all star performance and got a top pick when Mookie left potentially. Even Price could have been of some value. Dumb trade. They might as well go full Florida Marlins now after this. Didn't even get full money from the Dodgers? Just awful. I'm serious. Go full Florida Marlins in epic Loria mode. But first fire the GM and get someone with a brain. May not even be significant players at all? Verdugo was a 3 WAR player in less than a full season and was a top-30 prospect and Graterol is ranked 60th by BA. I mean there's always a possibility they bust but there's also a chance they're both very good. And if you think they're bad, then you would hate whoever they draft with the 70-whatever-th pick they'd get when Mookie walks. Stop being overdramatic, Bloom isn't the one without a brain here.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 5, 2020 0:59:09 GMT -5
This is the return you get for going for it at the deadline last year instead of punting on the season. Mookie would have netted more with a year and a half left.
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