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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 5, 2020 1:11:49 GMT -5
There have to be other players coming to the Sox or this is a terrible deal. Betts alone for Verdugo and Graterol is light by player or two depending on the the level of the remaining player(s). Price for 3 yrs at $96MM is comparable to Greinke, and we got negative value for him and ate a bunch of money for negative value? That’s insane. Hazen got 3 players of value and ate no money trading Greinke at the deadline. Something is missing in the reports, or this was a bad, bad deal. And I believe trading Betts was absolutely the right thing to do. But something feels missing here. Exactly how I feel. Not totally against trading Mookie or Price. I understand the calculus. It's just that the return is so underwhelming. The trade that Gammons discussed for Mookie (Verdugo and Downs plus a pitcher) was in the right ballpark. Instead, we threw in Price (a true #2 starter), SUBSIDIZED HIS SALARY, and got back LESS then the initial report. I sure hope the Sox picked correctly with Graterol. Sox FO might have viewed Graterol as the potential front end SP that LA wasn't going to move and this was the only way to get him, as in bringing in another team. I admit some of the pitcher names thrown about were not super impressive from LA who were not followed by "unavailable" in other leaked news, other than perhaps ferguson and really.. Has Boston slacked the last 2-3 decades in developing middle infielders? I'll take a pitcher with that type of magical arm in graterol over jeter. This kid has the (so far) 2 pitches we can dream on and they are off the charts. He improves the change up and it's magical.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 1:12:42 GMT -5
Loved watching Mookie but I'm not overly disappointed here relative to the long run. A. we got under the tax which means improved draft and IFA position in a strong draft year. This is still pending the Sox don't get porked in the MLB investigation against them.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 5, 2020 1:13:47 GMT -5
Well, they accomplished their goal of dropping under the luxury tax limit. So yeah, there's that. I don't even really disagree about your assessment of a Mookie-led Red Sox team in 2020. I probably would have taken my chances that they compete and kept Betts if the return wasn't overwhelming, but it's not hard to see a scenario where the bullpen is mediocre, the rotation is disappointing if Sale is either hurt or not at the top of his game and if Eovaldi contributes very little. There was no money to improve the team and realistically they were nowhere near as good as the Yankees and with teams like Chicago, the Angels, and TB upgrading, and Oakland and even Cleveland still hanging around, the Wild Card was hardly a guarantee. So I get that. What concerns me is that it seems to me the Red Sox really wanted that starting pitching prospects. They were rebuffed for May. They couldn't come to any agreement on any of the young Dodgers pitchers? And they couldn't get another prospect? Their inability to get Downs was disappointing to me and not even getting a catcher in a catcher-rich system like the Dodgers was also disappointing. I mean, the Dodgers gave up so very little, to get so very much. I would think they'd have to give up somebody of May, Gonsolin, Ruiz, Gray, or Downs, and they gave up nobody. If Gammons was right and Caleb Ferguson was a guy the Dodgers wanted the Sox to take and they passed because they thought he wouldn't be a starter, it makes sense to me why they'd turn to Minnesota and get Maeda to give to Minny for Graterol. But the issue is Graterol, despite his electric arm, is probably more likely to be the closer than a #2 or #3 starter, so is that better than taking Downs, a catcher perhaps, and a lesser arm like Ferguson? I'm speculating on who would have been in another Dodgers package and it'll be interesting to find out about it. But it seems to me this whole trade hinges on Graterol being a viable top to mid rotation starter. Verdugo looks like a guy who has some power - I wouldn't call him a power hitter, can hit and play defense - a bit like a young Shane Victorino without his speed. But he also has back issues and has had some questionable attitude issues as well. I think had the Sox gotten more from LA like Downs the deal would have sat better with me, but just getting those two and having to throw in Price at half his salary - the return feels light. But I guess I had it right when I said be prepared to be disappointed with the return. I can only hope that now that the luxury tax is no longer an issue, the Sox are prepared to offer Mookie a Godfather offer in the next offseason and get him back because we will NEVER see a player of that caliber on the Sox again - a player who excelled at EVERY aspect of baseball, on and off the field. But like it was wishful thinking that we'd see the Sox get more for Mookie and Price, it's probably wishful thinking the Sox do everything in their power to bring Mookie back -as there would be no luxury tax premium to pay. Unfortunately I think Mookie has already played the last game he'll ever play for the Red Sox. Frankly, 12 year deals are ridiculous, but I would offer him 10 years $360 million and two incentive based option years to get him to his 12 years $420 million and see if he goes for it. But of course now I think LA will do everything it takes to re-sign him at the end of the year. I hate this mobile page... just lost a long reply because I was looking up JD Martinez contract status. /end rant. Long story short, the Red Sox are vastly under for 2021. They have Pedroia off the books after 2021. JD Martinez can opt out after next season or else he'll be off the books after 2022. Price's remaining 16 million and Eovaldi will also be off after 2022 (I want to confirm this but I'm afraid of losing this again). Brusdar Graterol has arm issues. Verdugo has back issues. This is the only reason why they were ever made available to you. You weren't going to get high end talent without risk. Mookie Betts can leave after this year. Verdugo is a good contact hitter and is young in which I believe the power will start to come. Graterol could be a closer, but still hoping he's an electric 2. He could be more valuable than David Price in year 2 because Price is old, injury prone and has diminishing stuff. There's always a possibility his special elbow pops and he finally gets TJ. In fact, I don't see how Price is anymore risky than Graterol except Graterol has less experience, but better stuff at this point. I really hope they use the reset penalties and extra space to re-sign Betts instead of passing off George Springer as the guy. I do wish they could have preyed just one catcher from them, they could even pick. I don't care. I do like having more bodies just from an attrition standpoint. Somebody is bound to succeed. I'm still trying to figure out how they couldn't even get Andy Pages - check out his A ball stats, yet the Dodgers sent him along with Joc Pedersen to the Angels for a prospect who looks more like a utility player for them. A lottery ticket like Pages would have been nice to get, if not Jeter Downs.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Feb 5, 2020 1:21:22 GMT -5
Now what did we all learn about putting stock into gammons reports these days?
Still a baseball legend but damn
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 5, 2020 1:52:16 GMT -5
Now what did we all learn about putting stock into gammons reports these days? Still a baseball legend but damn I don't think it was bad information. It was heavily reported Verdugo, Downs and a pitcher. I truly believe that was on the table, yet Bloom wanted let's say an elite pitcher or a guy with that upside, Dodgers wouldn't do that. So they did this. Which pisses me off. I would have taken Verdugo, Downs, and Ferguson then dealt Price at the deadline. Pay half of Price's salary at the deadline you could have got some darn good value. I just don't get having to deal Price now, when it looks like it decreased our return. Let's hope our GM is a lot smarter than it looks like. I would have taken the best package even if we didn't get the high upside guy they wanted.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Feb 5, 2020 2:17:11 GMT -5
I am sure glad that we didn't muddy the waters by getting some prospects in return. we all know the Sox are loaded in that dept. this deal smells to high heavens. Verdugo and Graterol and paying more than half of Prices salary? Ya think they could have received a decent prospect from the loaded Dodgers.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 5, 2020 2:30:46 GMT -5
I want to point out that if they re-sign Mookie a year from now, this trade is tremendous. It's five years of Verdugo and six of Gatorade, ah, Grabital, ah, Graterol, for one year without Mookie, plus probably paying for some of the WAR Price will accrue for the Dodgers the next three years -- likely a season's worth, maybe one and a half.
I've argued already that there's no indication that Mookie had any significant desire to play elsewhere. If that is correct, we ought to have the inside track on re-signing him. I don't think I need to run down the reasons.
There's a hidden upside in that they now have room to sign Devers (or anyone else) to an extension without going over the limit. Someone wished for that that pages ago!
This is a very reasonable trade. It's not the super-steal we were led to believe might be brewing, but it doesn't suck. We're a lot less competitive than I expected we'd be, when it was JBJ rather than Mookie leaving the OF, but getting Alex Verdugo and celebrity chef Busboy Gratitude is way more than I expected to get for Price and JBJ.
The key piece here is obviously Toy Story 5 star Buzzcut Gravitron. You have to trust Bloom on him, as they went out of their way to get him.I expect he'll start the year in AAA, since he didn't have much success there as a starter last year. But you could see him in the rotation mid-year, and see him having an impact on our W/C chase.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Feb 5, 2020 2:43:06 GMT -5
Floor of an elite reliever, ceiling of a front line starter at the age of 20 sounds like a great pitching prospect. This is a great get. People often forget how valuable elite relievers are nowadays. Yeah..I am so glad we got an elite reliever for Mookie. Can't wait to buy my tickets now.
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ianrs
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Post by ianrs on Feb 5, 2020 2:57:56 GMT -5
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Post by ianrs on Feb 5, 2020 3:28:22 GMT -5
It’s hilarious because a guy some people are trying to shit on is about to leapfrog Casas as our #1 prospect lol Too bad Mookie Betts is literally the number 2 player in baseball behind Trout and a generational player in his prime lol
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 5, 2020 4:47:27 GMT -5
Roughly speaking, for 1 year of Mookie and 3 years of Price, we just got the tax reset, 5 years of Benny and 6 years of ERod.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 5:17:51 GMT -5
There is a lot to love about Brusdar Graterol. Really high groundball rates. Doesn't walk many batters in his SSS as a pitcher so far. Pretty good K rate. The only thing holding him back is the innings totals. Only 100 innings in 2018. 70 innings in 2019. He needs to build that stamina, but he's built to be a starter with that body. Built the same way Houck is for that matter. An absolute pitcher's frame.
A lot to like about Verdugo too. He has the chance for a lot more power. If he transfers some his raw power into game power, he'll be a great find.
Just wish there was a third piece. I think that's what everyone is hurting about. The players they got are quite good, with a small chance to be great and be all stars a lot of years.
Just shop Workman now while you're punting the season. A lot of teams looking for bullpen help right now. Take advantage of it. This team if nothing else, has a lot of bullpen depth at least.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 5:22:41 GMT -5
Mookie is gone and never coming back however. I think we can give up that pipedream. You couldn't get him to sign when you were the only team negotiating with him, he's not going to take less to come back now. The Dodgers will have more financial flexibility next off-season. They will fall for Mookie, just like we did here.
I'm not sure who Bloom is going to target for RF or CF the next year or years, but it's not going to be Betts. Let's see how creative he really gets.
Just lock up Devers. Don't screw that one up at least.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 5, 2020 5:48:16 GMT -5
There is a lot to love about Brusdar Graterol. Really high groundball rates. Doesn't walk many batters in his SSS as a pitcher so far. Pretty good K rate. The only thing holding him back is the innings totals. Only 100 innings in 2018. 70 innings in 2019. He needs to build that stamina, but he's built to be a starter with that body. Built the same way Houck is for that matter. An absolute pitcher's frame. A lot to like about Verdugo too. He has the chance for a lot more power. If he transfers some his raw power into game power, he'll be a great find. Just wish there was a third piece. I think that's what everyone is hurting about. The players they got are quite good, with a small chance to be great and be all stars a lot of years. Just shop Workman now while you're punting the season. A lot of teams looking for bullpen help right now. Take advantage of it. This team if nothing else, has a lot of bullpen depth at least. There's a lot not to like there too. He's as high of a risk prospect as you can get. If all breaks right he's close to a top of the rotation guy. More than likely he's a 8th inning arm. You can find those on the street. The Red Sox got absolutely smoked talent wise but again this wasn't about the return. This was about dumping David Price. Can't wait for this disaster to blow up in the Sox face.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 5, 2020 5:50:20 GMT -5
Very little to like about this deal. Henry needs to answer for this. But he won't. The only people in Boston who are happy this morning were the ones who wanted Price gone no matter what.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 6:01:47 GMT -5
There is a lot to love about Brusdar Graterol. Really high groundball rates. Doesn't walk many batters in his SSS as a pitcher so far. Pretty good K rate. The only thing holding him back is the innings totals. Only 100 innings in 2018. 70 innings in 2019. He needs to build that stamina, but he's built to be a starter with that body. Built the same way Houck is for that matter. An absolute pitcher's frame. A lot to like about Verdugo too. He has the chance for a lot more power. If he transfers some his raw power into game power, he'll be a great find. Just wish there was a third piece. I think that's what everyone is hurting about. The players they got are quite good, with a small chance to be great and be all stars a lot of years. Just shop Workman now while you're punting the season. A lot of teams looking for bullpen help right now. Take advantage of it. This team if nothing else, has a lot of bullpen depth at least. There's a lot not to like there too. He's as high of a risk prospect as you can get. If all breaks right he's close to a top of the rotation guy. More than likely he's a 8th inning arm. You can find those on the street. The Red Sox got absolutely smoked talent wise but again this wasn't about the return. This was about dumping David Price. Can't wait for this disaster to blow up in the Sox face. Disagree you can find a 8th inning guy anywhere. You can't find a guy with a 80's fastball like Darwinzon and Graterol on the street, no doubt about that one. They don't come around at all actually. Wagner. Chapman. Papelbon. These are the names that come to my mind with this kind of a fastball. He's a safe bet to be a major league pitcher if his arm doesn't explode and he needs a second Tommy John surgery. You can say that about a lot of pitchers though. He's at least a bullpen guy. He has a chance to be a horse for this team for a long time if they build him up. Talking myself into this trade, still think it's lacking, but the Sox made 2 safe bets here imo. Verdugo and Graterol will be here for a very long time and will perform. Couldn't say the same thing about Mookie, unfortunately.
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Post by nhdave on Feb 5, 2020 6:03:17 GMT -5
I’m actually more upset about ownership announcing their intentions regarding the luxury tax. It really put them at a distinct disadvantage in any trade talks. Too much talky talky will kill any negotiation.
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 5, 2020 6:11:22 GMT -5
If nothing else, I'd rather see the Dodgers win the world series than the Yankees. At least the Sox did that much. Now I feel the Yankees at least have a road block to the world series title. I don't see the AL providing much resistance.
Just feels MLB should just fast forward 2020 and put the Yankees and the Dodgers in the World Series and just skip the season. Would save us a lot of free time.
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Post by SALNotes on Feb 5, 2020 6:16:09 GMT -5
FWIW, I wouldn't put Graterol over Casas until he demonstrates the ability to flip a lineup 3 times in Double-A, Triple-A. With at least a 3-1 K/BB.
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Post by nesportfan on Feb 5, 2020 6:23:40 GMT -5
That’s it? Verdugo & a 21 year old, 6’ 1” pitcher approaching 300 pounds with shoulder issues and has already had Tommy John Surgery for Mookie Betts?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 5, 2020 6:24:02 GMT -5
I’m actually more upset about ownership announcing their intentions regarding the luxury tax. It really put them at a distinct disadvantage in any trade talks. Too much talky talky will kill any negotiation. What makes it worse is ownership walked it back a couple weeks ago. This is a cluster all around. But hey at least John Henry doesn't have to write a big check to MLB. He could get Linda a new newspaper company with that money. The one thing im curious about is what the impending Boston Globe hit job on Price ane Betts will look like.
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kevfc89
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 5, 2020 6:30:07 GMT -5
I was thinking of Verdugo as a low power, spray groundballs/line drives around the field type guy; Benintendi was an obvious comp. But after seeing how far some of his bombs land in these clips, I think there's more upside to tap into. He's got a very nice swing and doesn't strikeout; he could be more Yellich than Benintendi if he reaches his full potential. At the very least he should have a high floor if he stays healthy.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 5, 2020 6:35:08 GMT -5
I was thinking of Verdugo as a low power, spray groundballs/line drives around the field type guy; Benintendi was an obvious comp. But after seeing how far some of his bombs land in these clips, I think there's more upside to tap into. He's got a very nice swing and doesn't strikeout; he could be more Yellich than Benintendi if he reaches his full potential. At the very least he should have a high floor if he stays healthy. Benintendi with more power, a much better arm, and more ability to play the huge rf or fill in in cf or move back there if we sign a rf next year.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 5, 2020 6:45:15 GMT -5
Buster Olney @buster_ESPN · 9m Mookie Betts understands his importance to the union and wanted to get to free agency, as Gerrit Cole did, to push the free agent $ ceiling for the union brethren. That is his right. Leaving Red Sox with a choice: deal him, or get almost nothing for him if he walked away.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 5, 2020 6:54:03 GMT -5
Again, I think the fact that: A. Price didn't opt out. B. The Red Sox felt compelled to take on half his contract Should tell you all you need to know about how MLB felt about David Price. C. A very smart team that desperately wants to win the World Series decided that David Price should be a major piece of their rotation.
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