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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 7, 2020 9:45:23 GMT -5
Describe to me his association with the sexual assault. He stood there and watched a drunk girl get beat up by other drunk girls. What a demon. If I were to criticize him for standing there as a drunk teen and watching somebody get beat up I would be a hypocrite. It’s obviously preferable that he would have stopped that but again, He’s a drunk teen. As long as he isn’t doing the assaulting I do not care From what I read on SOSH, he wasn't part of the assault, but if I read it correctly, he was taping what was going on. If I misread it, I apologize profusely, but if I understood it correctly, he was recording it. That's not something to be proud of, to say the least, and it makes me uncomfortable with him being on my team, not that it matters how I feel. Makes it feel like I'm only rooting for laundry in his case, particularly when I contrast that with Mookie sneaking out to feed the homeless. Between that and past immaturity issues, perhaps that's why the Dodgers haven't blinked when putting him on the trade block. I hope his past immaturity issues are in the past and he's learned from his mistakes, but it's not a good look to say the least - if what I interpreted was correct. Only wading into this to clear something up. The issue is folks assuming that the alleged "assault" is the same as the alleged "sexual assault." (And to be clear, I'm not using "alleged" to imply it didn't happen, only as a legal term of art because it was an allegation.) Those were two different things. The account of that evening that's been reported is that Verdugo was in the room when the two girls were physically assaulting the victim because she vomited on the bed in the hotel room. A player recorded it and posted the video on social media. I haven't read if that was Verdugo or not, but it certainly could've been. The account is then that when the victim was alone in the room with Dodgers minor leaguer James Baldwin, he sexually assaulted her, and he stopped once others entered the room (and it doesn't read like the kind of thing that would've been obvious when they returned - it's not that they were both naked or something). It's an incident that it's unfortunate he was involved in, but there's no evidence that Verdugo even knew about the sexual assault that night, never mind participated. I've only seen one article that says that, but the story it links to for support of that assertion doesn't say that at all.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2020 10:02:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure what there is to explain. If you go over the third CBT limit your first pick drops 10 spots. It's pretty simple. The 2018 Red Sox are the only team to ever have done this. Given that this is the last year of the CBA, it's also not worth worrying about because the system may change starting next year. Big deal. If you look at the odds of players making MLB rosters who are picked 24th-30th (where Sox most often pick since new ownership group took over) vs. those picked 34th to 50th it is a negligible difference. We’ve had that discussion over the years. It's about a million dollars of draft pool, which can also be used on 10 different players.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 7, 2020 10:02:44 GMT -5
Describe to me his association with the sexual assault. He stood there and watched a drunk girl get beat up by other drunk girls. What a demon. If I were to criticize him for standing there as a drunk teen and watching somebody get beat up I would be a hypocrite. It’s obviously preferable that he would have stopped that but again, He’s a drunk teen. As long as he isn’t doing the assaulting I do not care From what I read on SOSH, he wasn't part of the assault, but if I read it correctly, he was taping what was going on. If I misread it, I apologize profusely, but if I understood it correctly, he was recording it. That's not something to be proud of, to say the least, and it makes me uncomfortable with him being on my team, not that it matters how I feel. Makes it feel like I'm only rooting for laundry in his case, particularly when I contrast that with Mookie sneaking out to feed the homeless. Between that and past immaturity issues, perhaps that's why the Dodgers haven't blinked when putting him on the trade block. I hope his past immaturity issues are in the past and he's learned from his mistakes, but it's not a good look to say the least - if what I interpreted was correct. Admit know nothing of said fight Verdugo was at/involved with, but let me say... 1) If it was guys involved instead would this be a big deal? 2) I ask mostly former older service members this. Involvement in fisticuffs.. Generally over nothing and often at places not within the US was pretty common anyway where alcohol was both cheap and branches mixed. Seeing 20+ going at it at any one time might have led to minor charges at most often dropped and payment of damages to some establishment if overseas. From what have just seen on posts and HAVE NOT READ on charges.. The kid was no more involved in a drunken brawl and wasn't even a participant. show me a former swabby, jarhead etc. that never was and i'll show u a liar.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Feb 7, 2020 10:09:03 GMT -5
I wonder if Jeffers could be the additional piece. I know that would be a significant addition, but the have Garver and Austudillo locked up for a while and we could use a catcher that will be ready in the next couple of years.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 7, 2020 10:13:34 GMT -5
From what I read on SOSH, he wasn't part of the assault, but if I read it correctly, he was taping what was going on. If I misread it, I apologize profusely, but if I understood it correctly, he was recording it. That's not something to be proud of, to say the least, and it makes me uncomfortable with him being on my team, not that it matters how I feel. Makes it feel like I'm only rooting for laundry in his case, particularly when I contrast that with Mookie sneaking out to feed the homeless. Between that and past immaturity issues, perhaps that's why the Dodgers haven't blinked when putting him on the trade block. I hope his past immaturity issues are in the past and he's learned from his mistakes, but it's not a good look to say the least - if what I interpreted was correct. Admit know nothing of said fight Verdugo was at/involved with, but let me say... 1) If it was guys involved instead would this be a big deal? 2) I ask mostly former older service members this. Involvement in fisticuffs.. Generally over nothing and often at places not within the US was pretty common anyway where alcohol was both cheap and branches mixed. Seeing 20+ going at it at any one time might have led to minor charges at most often dropped and payment of damages to some establishment if overseas. From what have just seen on posts and HAVE NOT READ on charges.. The kid was no more involved in a drunken brawl and wasn't even a participant. show me a former swabby, jarhead etc. that never was and i'll show u a liar. It's really the posting to social media aspect of the thing that raises the judgment/empathy issues, isn't it? But also it's not clear, I think, whether it was him or Urias that did that? And also I certainly think a bad judgment made by a 19-year-old shouldn't define his character forevermore. (There but for the grace of god go... well, most of us at any rate.) I'm glad to see it clarified that he wasn't involved in the sexual assault in any way.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 7, 2020 10:22:31 GMT -5
I wonder if Jeffers could be the additional piece. I know that would be a significant addition, but the have Garver and Austudillo locked up for a while and we could use a catcher that will be ready in the next couple of years. I'd assume it would have to be a starter.
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 10:31:40 GMT -5
From what I read on SOSH, he wasn't part of the assault, but if I read it correctly, he was taping what was going on. If I misread it, I apologize profusely, but if I understood it correctly, he was recording it. That's not something to be proud of, to say the least, and it makes me uncomfortable with him being on my team, not that it matters how I feel. Makes it feel like I'm only rooting for laundry in his case, particularly when I contrast that with Mookie sneaking out to feed the homeless. Between that and past immaturity issues, perhaps that's why the Dodgers haven't blinked when putting him on the trade block. I hope his past immaturity issues are in the past and he's learned from his mistakes, but it's not a good look to say the least - if what I interpreted was correct. Admit know nothing of said fight Verdugo was at/involved with, but let me say... 1) If it was guys involved instead would this be a big deal? 2) I ask mostly former older service members this. Involvement in fisticuffs.. Generally over nothing and often at places not within the US was pretty common anyway where alcohol was both cheap and branches mixed. Seeing 20+ going at it at any one time might have led to minor charges at most often dropped and payment of damages to some establishment if overseas. From what have just seen on posts and HAVE NOT READ on charges.. The kid was no more involved in a drunken brawl and wasn't even a participant. show me a former swabby, jarhead etc. that never was and i'll show u a liar. When your defense is “I didn’t do anything worse than sailors in an overseas bar,” you might be in trouble.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 7, 2020 10:33:28 GMT -5
It looks to me like the Twins were not acting in good faith regarding Graterol's shoulder. The Red Sox caught them and....nobody besides Chaim Bloom cares. If they don't want Graterol anymore, then the Dodgers have prospects that were ranked in the same general ballpark. It can't be that hard to make a deal. Maybe the Red Sox have to throw in some extra money, or a lesser prospect. If they still want Graterol, then maybe they can squeeze a lottery ticket out of the Twins. But the idea that the Twins are just throw in another top 100 guy is absurd. Agreed. I don't think they're getting Jeter Downs, Trevor Larnach, the Twins best pitching prospect (won't even try to spell his name), or Josiah Gray or even Gonsolin. It'll either be that Twins pick or a lottery ticket type. I do expect Chaim will get it wrapped up before Shabbat dinner tonight. I would add that getting the best prospect at this point is all that matters. Whether he can fill in the #5 hole of a rotation belonging to a .500ish club is kind of irrelevant. It sounds like they'll keep Graterol (they don't have any future closers other than Darwinzon whose control doesn't make that a slam dunk) and take a lesser prospect rather than try to get a young starting pitching prospect out of thin air - sounds like the Dodgers won't bend and that the ship has sailed on that.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 7, 2020 10:41:33 GMT -5
Describe to me his association with the sexual assault. He stood there and watched a drunk girl get beat up by other drunk girls. What a demon. If I were to criticize him for standing there as a drunk teen and watching somebody get beat up I would be a hypocrite. It’s obviously preferable that he would have stopped that but again, He’s a drunk teen. As long as he isn’t doing the assaulting I do not care From what I read on SOSH, he wasn't part of the assault, but if I read it correctly, he was taping what was going on. If I misread it, I apologize profusely, but if I understood it correctly, he was recording it. That's not something to be proud of, to say the least, and it makes me uncomfortable with him being on my team, not that it matters how I feel. Makes it feel like I'm only rooting for laundry in his case, particularly when I contrast that with Mookie sneaking out to feed the homeless. Between that and past immaturity issues, perhaps that's why the Dodgers haven't blinked when putting him on the trade block. I hope his past immaturity issues are in the past and he's learned from his mistakes, but it's not a good look to say the least - if what I interpreted was correct. The assault and alleged sexual assault happened at two different times in the hotel room. Verdugo was partying in the hotel room. There is 'speculation' that Verdugo was the one video taping the initial assault for to his known presence and because he wasn't in the video. As far as anyone knows he could have been picking up funyuns at the store. The report centered around another player (who was kicked out of multiple organizations) but moreso on how Kapler, Francona and the Dodgers organization were incompetent in knowing how to handle the situations. But don't take my word for it - go read the report. (This goes for anyone who ever wants to comment on a report of a report - Facebook/Twitter/chat forum aren't the best places to gain in-depth information)
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Post by kman22 on Feb 7, 2020 10:43:11 GMT -5
Didn't Heyman tweet that they are looking for a 2nd top prospect, in addition to Graterol?
He could be way off, like many of our guesses at the original return, but they could be targeting a legit prospect.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2020 10:46:43 GMT -5
Remember that before the medical issue popped up, there were multiple reports that other smaller parts of the deal were not announced yet.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Feb 7, 2020 10:50:12 GMT -5
NYP has an article stating the Twins had plans to use Graterol as a reliever due to his "violent motion" and to protect his arm from a link to another 1/25 article from the Minnesota Star Tribune. Maybe Boston FO thought better and could change his motion and found more damage in the medicals? i am kind of confused here: Minnesota star tribune
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 7, 2020 10:53:42 GMT -5
Again clearing this up.
There are major judgment and apathy issues involved here, for sure. But he didn't sexually assault anyone.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 7, 2020 11:04:29 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what we can get back from the Twins to make this deal go through. I'm actually thinking someone like Dobnak, along with Graterol.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 7, 2020 11:06:42 GMT -5
Dobnak is cool, but he's also the Twins-est player since like Kevin Slowey. I have an irrational soft spot for players who correctly fit their team staying with that team.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 7, 2020 11:11:33 GMT -5
Dobnak is cool, but he's also the Twins-est player since like Kevin Slowey. I have an irrational soft spot for players who correctly fit their team staying with that team. According to ESPN, he is from South Park, United States. Not sure what "South Park" that is, but it make me more intrigued..
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 11:20:29 GMT -5
Again clearing this up. There are major judgment and apathy issues involved here, for sure. But he didn't sexually assault anyone. I don’t know what happened, but is this suggestion that these texts represent a defense? “Other than that, he didn’t sexually assault her” remains an awful look. I’m not saying he should be strung up or even stained for life. Kids grow up and change. I am saying I don’t love going out and trading for him not too long after this stuff. There is a huge difference between cutting him some slack and welcoming him with open arms. Edit: and by the way, the “we weren’t in the room and can’t know” argument also pretty much lets every scumbag athlete off the hook. That is an extraordinary standard. Not saying he is necessarily in that category, but if people take seriously holding athletes accountable, that isn’t going to cut it.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 7, 2020 11:24:17 GMT -5
Even though it's maybe going to net a better return. I'm just mad that Graterol failed his exam and continuing on this seemingly never-ending saga.
I'm also tired of people tearing down Bloom for this deal. He was the VP of the Rays who won 96 games despite the lowest payroll in baseball and was apart of the front office that was able to flip Chris Archer for Tyler Glasnow and Austin Meadows. What's funny about this deal is that while it became a clear rip off after last season, before that, there was a TON of risk. Meadows - decent pop, not very good k/bb, negative WAR and dWAR when called up (SSS), and never quite put together the 5 tools he had after being drafted. His swing wasn't generating much lift consistently. Tyler Glasnow FIP based on years: 2016 - 4.26 2017 - 6.30 2018 - 4.00 (was worse with the Ray than Pittsburg that year) 2019 - 2.26
He was bouncing around between starting and relieving. He looked like a bust after being touted as one of the best pitching prospects in the game. He completely lost his ability to find the plate.
If Bloom made that same exact trade in Boston when it happened, I bet anything this town would be going ballistic (not that I think Chris Archer was anything special and vastly overrated).
Bloom on this Mookie trade: - He was put in a horrendous position by his owner (and JD Martinez) by publicly stating they can't keep Mookie Betts and that they're going under the luxury tax. - Mookie is in the very last year of his contract and the acquiring team will only get a 5th rounder back. - He acquired 2019's (as of January) number 16th and 33rd best prospects in baseball. The equivalent of maybe a slower Andrew Benintendi and a wildcard pitcher who could have been a number 1/2 starter or an elite bullpen arm. As of today, after the medical reports, he looks like a cheap Nathan Eovaldi.
Graterol is risky, much like Glasnow was; however, now that he has failed his physical this changes the quality of this trade.
If Verdugo came into Boston and posted .922 OPS and Graterol had a 3-3.5 ERA in 25 starts I think fans would be elated. I don't see why Verdugo at 24 years old, coming from the pitcher friendly Dodgers stadium, couldn't come here and post those numbers (natural progression plus a more hitter friendly park).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 7, 2020 11:33:36 GMT -5
Big deal. If you look at the odds of players making MLB rosters who are picked 24th-30th (where Sox most often pick since new ownership group took over) vs. those picked 34th to 50th it is a negligible difference. We’ve had that discussion over the years. It's about a million dollars of draft pool, which can also be used on 10 different players. The money matters, but we haven't ever come close to signing 10 guys for an extra $100,000 each. Heck last draft when they got docked they signed more players for bigger money after the 10th round than the other two drafts without that. Yet none of the guys signed were even top 600 guys, that certainly isn't an end all though. The point being they seemed to just sign guys to spend the money, because the guy they wanted went to College. There just isn't a huge difference in $125,000 and $225,000. The money does matter, yet picking the right players matters more. We haven't had very much luck with paying guys more than $125,000 after round ten. Is Beeks the best guy? Are other teams matter at it? Everyone blames DD, yet most of the draft guys were here already. He certainly didn't clear house and bring in his own guys. Not that I hate a bunch of the picks, but we really haven't had any breakout either. Henry wants to save an extra 100 million getting under the line. I think it's about time for the blow up the draft plan. Everyone keeps talking about this being a very good draft.
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 7, 2020 11:36:40 GMT -5
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Post by fenwaydouble on Feb 7, 2020 11:42:30 GMT -5
Again clearing this up. There are major judgment and apathy issues involved here, for sure. But he didn't sexually assault anyone. I don’t know what happened, but is this suggestion that these texts represent a defense? “Other than that, he didn’t sexually assault her” remains an awful look. I’m not saying he should be strung up or even stained for life. Kids grow up and change. I am saying I don’t love going out and trading for him not too long after this stuff. There is a huge difference between cutting him some slack and welcoming him with open arms. Edit: and by the way, the “we weren’t in the room and can’t know” argument also pretty much lets every scumbag athlete off the hook. That is an extraordinary standard. Not saying he is necessarily in that category, but if people take seriously holding athletes accountable, that isn’t going to cut it. Okay, but it's not that WE weren't in the room. It's that HE wasn't in the room. That seems like a pretty important thing to point out.
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 7, 2020 11:42:33 GMT -5
Again clearing this up. There are major judgment and apathy issues involved here, for sure. But he didn't sexually assault anyone. I don’t know what happened, but is this suggestion that these texts represent a defense? “Other than that, he didn’t sexually assault her” remains an awful look. I’m not saying he should be strung up or even stained for life. Kids grow up and change. I am saying I don’t love going out and trading for him not too long after this stuff. There is a huge difference between cutting him some slack and welcoming him with open arms. Edit: and by the way, the “we weren’t in the room and can’t know” argument also pretty much lets every scumbag athlete off the hook. That is an extraordinary standard. Not saying he is necessarily in that category, but if people take seriously holding athletes accountable, that isn’t going to cut it. It happened 5 years ago and doesn't seem to have been treated like a big deal by anyone until the Red Sox traded for him. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the assault itself (which Verdugo did not commit), but what exactly do you want to happen here? With all of that said, the trade still sucks.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 7, 2020 11:43:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure how, but this part of the conversation is the most annoying part of the Mookie deal.
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 7, 2020 11:44:34 GMT -5
Also, how can they know that a player recorded the beating and posted it to social media, but not which one?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 7, 2020 11:48:00 GMT -5
This is what drives me crazy, if Henry won't budge on the getting under part even if it means not getting the best return for Betts. Certain posters keep saying we have no options. Which is crazy. If you're willing to pay down Betts salary you could have 20 plus teams in on him. The return should be your only worry, otherwise you're being stupid.
At the same time Bloom seems to have misread the market from the start. Starting with Bradley, like who really thought he had value given the current times? He then tries to trade Price for months and waits till weeks before spring Training to actually get serious on trading Betts. Yet at that point teams have mostly set rosters, money and his options were very limited. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that was a horrible plan. Sure Henry didn't make it easy, but Bloom hasn't done a very good job either. Look what the Padres gave up for Pham.
People can bash DD all they want, but sometimes an owner needs a GM who will tell him he's being dumb and this needs to be done. Man I would have much rather had DD making this trade. It's what he's good at. He knows talent.
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