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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by soxcentral on Feb 7, 2020 11:48:28 GMT -5
I'm not sure how, but this part of the conversation is the most annoying part of the Mookie deal. And that was a high bar to clear, too!
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 11:51:09 GMT -5
I don’t know what happened, but is this suggestion that these texts represent a defense? “Other than that, he didn’t sexually assault her” remains an awful look. I’m not saying he should be strung up or even stained for life. Kids grow up and change. I am saying I don’t love going out and trading for him not too long after this stuff. There is a huge difference between cutting him some slack and welcoming him with open arms. Edit: and by the way, the “we weren’t in the room and can’t know” argument also pretty much lets every scumbag athlete off the hook. That is an extraordinary standard. Not saying he is necessarily in that category, but if people take seriously holding athletes accountable, that isn’t going to cut it. It happened 5 years ago and doesn't seem to have been treated like a big deal by anyone until the Red Sox traded for him. I'm in no way trying to downplay the seriousness of the assault itself (which Verdugo did not commit), but what exactly do you want to happen here? With all of that said, the trade still sucks. I suspect itwas treated as a big deal by the girl who was beaten and sexually assaulted. If no one else took it seriously, that is part of the problem, not part of the defense.
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Post by jayhawk on Feb 7, 2020 11:52:35 GMT -5
I don't want to speculate too much on this as there's a lot we don't know but I'm having a hard time coming to terms with the idea of keeping Graterol in the deal.
Presumably, getting back a top tier starting pitching prospect was a 'must' for the Sox, leading to the addition of a 3rd team able to part with one. Graterol, even as a reliever, clearly still has some amount of value so it would stand to reason that keeping him in the deal would mean getting a lesser starting pitching prospect back.
If starting pitching is that important to the Sox then I would hope they don't change/lower their demands simply because a prospect failed a physical but I can't shake the feeling that's where this is headed.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 7, 2020 12:01:51 GMT -5
You know, I rarely think this, but it actually seems to me that the general view of this trade has swung too far in the direction of "the player is blameless and it's entirely the fault of the greedy owners." Mookie of course has every right to seek his fortune and blah blah blah, but by insisting on going to free agency he put the team in a position where it really made the most baseball sense to trade him.
If you think they shouldn't have traded him, I don't blame you. In fact I probably agree with you! But that judgment is based on Mookie being awesome rather than a sound analysis of what will produce the most wins for the team over the course of the next several seasons. How much blame does the team deserve for acting on that analysis?
And the Red Sox tried to keep him by offering, at the very least, a 10/300 extension. If Betts had been willing to negotiate it seems almost certain that he would have ended up with at least, say, 11/350 or something, which still would have been the second-largest contract in MLB history after Mike Trout. And you know exactly what kind of contract Mookie deserves? The second-largest contract in MLB history after Mike Trout.
Mookie put money above all else. The Red Sox acted in a way that maximizes the long-term strength of the team. It's a little odd that people put this entirely on the greedy owners.
And to be clear: this is NOT a reason to criticize Mookie Betts. It's just a reason to be a little less critical of the Red Sox.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 7, 2020 12:03:26 GMT -5
If I'm 19 and drunk, I'm probably watching a fight and laughing. At 32, I'm not.
It's reality. Kids do stupid crap.
If he was aware that someone was fondling the girl inappropriately and didn't say anything, that'd be one thing. No report suggests that's what happened.
Beyond that, he over slept once and missed the bus.
This is annoying.
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Post by Guidas on Feb 7, 2020 12:08:21 GMT -5
Big deal. If you look at the odds of players making MLB rosters who are picked 24th-30th (where Sox most often pick since new ownership group took over) vs. those picked 34th to 50th it is a negligible difference. We’ve had that discussion over the years. It's about a million dollars of draft pool, which can also be used on 10 different players. I understand this, and would likely agree if it was more than one year, but for one year, I’m still not very concerned, as most if not all of those guys won’t make an MLB rooster, either. I mean, if they really want a guy who they believe will slip and want to pay him overslot, then draft him with their first pick and overpay him there, or pay most of the other guys at slot, then grab your guy and fill in the blanks with a few more slot guys and guys after the 10th pick, undrafted guys, minor league FAs later or whatever. I don’t think the ROI or lost opportunity in breaking up this core one year before there IS a lot of opportunity to clear salary - and one year before the new CBA negotiations - is worth the return. Just my opinion on this one.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 7, 2020 12:08:52 GMT -5
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cdj
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Posts: 15,688
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 12:10:48 GMT -5
Ah yes, a 19 YO cannot mature because Gabe Kapler is an idiot. Great take
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 7, 2020 12:11:50 GMT -5
That's unfortunate to hear about from Kapler. That's a grown man who didn't act in the best interest of the victim and had time to think and make the right decision. I loved Kapler, but that's disappointing to read.
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:13:24 GMT -5
If I'm 19 and drunk, I'm probably watching a fight and laughing. At 32, I'm not. It's reality. Kids do stupid crap. If he was aware that someone was fondling the girl inappropriately and didn't say anything, that'd be one thing. No report suggests that's what happened. Beyond that, he over slept once and missed the bus. This is annoying. I don’t know... I was an athlete and a frat guy, but if an underage runaway was being beaten by two older women, my first reaction would not be to film it and post it to social media. There was a limit to what I found funny, even at 19. Her face was apparently pretty messed up. This is all aside from the sexual assault. People can find this “annoying,” but personally, as I said before, I hope he has grown up, learned whatever lesson Kapler thought he’d learn at the proposed dinner, and becomes a good player and is a good person — but my preference is not to trade the face of the franchise for him. I am not interested in rooting for him next season.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,688
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 12:21:25 GMT -5
If I'm 19 and drunk, I'm probably watching a fight and laughing. At 32, I'm not. It's reality. Kids do stupid crap. If he was aware that someone was fondling the girl inappropriately and didn't say anything, that'd be one thing. No report suggests that's what happened. Beyond that, he over slept once and missed the bus. This is annoying. I don’t know... I was an athlete and a frat guy, but if an underage runaway was being beaten by two older women, my first reaction would not be to film it and post it to social media. There was a limit to what I found funny, even at 19. Her face was apparently pretty messed up. This is all aside from the sexual assault. People can find this “annoying,” but personally, as I said before, I hope he has grown up, learned whatever lesson Kapler thought he’d learn at the proposed dinner, and becomes a good player and is a good person — but my preference is not to trade the face of the franchise for him. I am not interested in rooting for him next season. I mean older is technically true but weren’t the girls also under age teenagers? It’s not like he sat there and watched two adults beat up a child. He saw two of his presumed friends beating up a peer Who puked on their bed. The filming it and posting it to social media is dumb if that was him, but other than that I can’t really say I would’ve done anything different
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:31:39 GMT -5
I don’t know... I was an athlete and a frat guy, but if an underage runaway was being beaten by two older women, my first reaction would not be to film it and post it to social media. There was a limit to what I found funny, even at 19. Her face was apparently pretty messed up. This is all aside from the sexual assault. People can find this “annoying,” but personally, as I said before, I hope he has grown up, learned whatever lesson Kapler thought he’d learn at the proposed dinner, and becomes a good player and is a good person — but my preference is not to trade the face of the franchise for him. I am not interested in rooting for him next season. I mean older is technically true but weren’t the girls also under age teenagers? It’s not like he sat there and watched two adults beat up a child. He saw two of his presumed friends beating up a peer Who puked on their bed. The filming it and posting it to social media is dumb if that was him, but other than that I can’t really say I would’ve done anything different An underage runaway drinks half a bottle of vodka in your room and pukes. At that point, I am deeply concerned about her health. Then, two people beat her. Two on one is already unacceptable, but if this girl is puking, it is safe to assume she is defenseless. So... you watch a defenseless girl get beaten by two people and, what, laugh? Stand there wringing your hands? Three 200+ pound athletes don’t think they might perhaps stop that? No way. Disgusting by any standard. And to film it and post it? By the way... under many laws, this can make you an accomplice. You are effectively a part of a group assault. Given that violence against women is a staggering problem in America — a woman is beaten every 9 seconds in America — shrugging off making sport of it is frankly demented.
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:35:16 GMT -5
By the way, this event happened in 2017, right? Can anyone forward the clippings of Verdugo expressing remorse? Working at a battered woman’s shelter? Donating to Planed Parenthood? Time + shut the *bleep* up doesn’t equal let’s let it go.
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Post by trajanacc on Feb 7, 2020 12:37:35 GMT -5
Mods can we please move this topic to a different thread? I don’t come here to read this crap.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 7, 2020 12:37:56 GMT -5
If I'm 19 and drunk, I'm probably watching a fight and laughing. At 32, I'm not. It's reality. Kids do stupid crap. If he was aware that someone was fondling the girl inappropriately and didn't say anything, that'd be one thing. No report suggests that's what happened. Beyond that, he over slept once and missed the bus. This is annoying. I don’t know... I was an athlete and a frat guy, but if an underage runaway was being beaten by two older women, my first reaction would not be to film it and post it to social media. There was a limit to what I found funny, even at 19. Her face was apparently pretty messed up. This is all aside from the sexual assault. People can find this “annoying,” but personally, as I said before, I hope he has grown up, learned whatever lesson Kapler thought he’d learn at the proposed dinner, and becomes a good player and is a good person — but my preference is not to trade the face of the franchise for him. I am not interested in rooting for him next season. Verdugo supposedly didn't know her back story. Just that she was a girl who puked on the hotel bed after getting wasted. Also, there's no indication he was the one who filmed it. He could of, but speculation. That part is a bit over the top and I'd like to think after a while I'd pull them apart. I just don't know how drunk 19 year old would have done in that situation. Some people just lack an entire mortality compass until life catches up with them. I'd like to think that played out here as there's no more reports of him being a scumbag.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,688
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Post by cdj on Feb 7, 2020 12:39:43 GMT -5
By the way, this event happened in 2017, right? Can anyone forward the clippings of Verdugo expressing remorse? Working at a battered woman’s shelter? Donating to Planed Parenthood? Time + shut the *bleep* up doesn’t equal let’s let it go. Happened in 2015, and plz show me the laws where he would be an accomplice because according to you I’ve been an accomplice on a thousand assaults It’s funny to me that the only people who actually make a big deal out of this were the people crying about the trade A drunk kid watched two drunk kids beat up 1 drunk kid. That is literally what happened. And if you’re going to have such strong takes it would behoove you to be factually accurate
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Post by redsox3in10 on Feb 7, 2020 12:41:01 GMT -5
I really wish this thread was just for trade info. This discussion is valid, but right now I'm just looking for new info on this trade and keep walking back into this topic instead.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 7, 2020 12:41:42 GMT -5
OK enough of the merits discussion. The facts are there. Let's move along from this part.
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:41:43 GMT -5
By the way, this event happened in 2017, right? Can anyone forward the clippings of Verdugo expressing remorse? Working at a battered woman’s shelter? Donating to Planed Parenthood? Time + shut the *bleep* up doesn’t equal let’s let it go. Happened in 2015, and plz show me the laws where he would be an accomplice because according to you I’ve been an accomplice on a thousand assaults It’s funny to me that the only people who actually make a big deal out of this were the people crying about the trade I didn’t know about it before the trade because it was not widely covered... again part of the issue. Just read the SI article on Nick Francona. Kapler seems like a sweetheart.
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Post by southernredsoxality on Feb 7, 2020 12:42:48 GMT -5
I mean older is technically true but weren’t the girls also under age teenagers? It’s not like he sat there and watched two adults beat up a child. He saw two of his presumed friends beating up a peer Who puked on their bed. The filming it and posting it to social media is dumb if that was him, but other than that I can’t really say I would’ve done anything different An underage runaway drinks half a bottle of vodka in your room and pukes. At that point, I am deeply concerned about her health. Then, two people beat her. Two on one is already unacceptable, but if this girl is puking, it is safe to assume she is defenseless. So... you watch a defenseless girl get beaten by two people and, what, laugh? Stand there wringing your hands? Three 200+ pound athletes don’t think they might perhaps stop that? No way. Disgusting by any standard. And to film it and post it? By the way... under many laws, this can make you an accomplice. You are effectively a part of a group assault. Given that violence against women is a staggering problem in America — a woman is beaten every 9 seconds in America — shrugging off making sport of it is frankly demented. Stop equating drunk girls fighting amongst themselves to domestic violence, that’s insane. Besides, didn’t we get a warning about staying on topic a few pages back from one of the mods? I check this thread for updates and thoughts on the trade, not people’s opinions on social issues.
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 7, 2020 12:45:33 GMT -5
edit: nvm
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 11,508
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Post by nomar on Feb 7, 2020 12:46:34 GMT -5
For the love of god stop responding to each other about this off field stuff
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:48:57 GMT -5
Ok, big picture... from the start this has been about direction of the Sox. Part of that is win/loss and part is what character should the team have. There is a good argument for trading Mookie for the former reason. Taken strictly as a w/l trade, this does not please me. You get an OF who does not look close to being a replacement — even 4 years from now — for an elite player. He might be a good secondary piece in a solid lineup, but it leaves the Sox needing more. And a pitcher I simply don’t have faith in... injury history + reliever profile.
Now, add in the what-kind-of-team do I wanna root for? Personally, I’d like to stick with homegrown superstars to the end, even if what you get is a compensation pick over the above package. I value that ethos. This is not to mention the stuff I’ve already been clear on.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 7, 2020 12:50:37 GMT -5
They saved enough by dumping Price that they ought to be doing another deal after this to use the room to trade with San Diego for Myers and a pile of talent for our farm. Maybe just wishful thinking, but the Sox could then even cut Myers loose like SF dumped Cozart, or keep him this year to try to rebuild value instead of jettisoning him immediately from the 40-man to get out of luxury tax implications forward from that point, but they could do that in any event later if they wanted to I believe to avoid his counting against cap for us.
SF got a solid SS prospect for taking on 12.7MM of salary to dump. The Sox have money, and I don’t see any of this being about the Sox being cheap. SD doesn’t have a lot of money period. We have a lot of money in cash, but spending that counts against the luxury tax over the cap is our specific problem. The rules make it impossible to sign new players when you have been over the cap for a third year. The 10 draft spots are not a big penalty, the intl signing money matters more, but the killer nobody is talking about is that every contract $ signed costs $1.50 and worse if you are well over the cap, esp $40MM+ over. Signing a guy for $30MM a year over $208MM costs you $45MM per year — for every player you sign. So it is common sense that teams have to reset under the tax line every 3rd yr if they get there, or signing any player means a dramatic overpay.
But if we can spend money on somebody’s not so highly cap punitive player to help also add a new bunch of farm assets from a team deep with them, we would do well to add guys like Campusano, Olivares, Arias, Munoz, Baez or Cantillo, even if we can’t get Patino. Naylor and Quantrill are not what we need if we trade with the Pads. The Dodgers have the MLB ready talent of value. But the Padres have the kids, and that is the other element we need to fix, and we could add depth to our farm immediately if we reinvest the Price savings this way. I hope there is another leg to this deal when the ink dries on the Betts/Price move because doing something like this for a bunch of players after would give people something to be excited about for now and the future.
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Post by manfred on Feb 7, 2020 12:51:44 GMT -5
Now... on a strictly different topic, this trade revision is fascinating... who wants it most and has to blink? And how big a concern is the medical report (meaning, how big a revision need there be)?
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