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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by taftreign on Feb 9, 2020 9:15:38 GMT -5
Here is a scenario that may be driving the holdup. Boston notices a medical red flag bringing hesitation to the original trade and a request for additional renumeration. At this time the holdup is reported and other teams call expressing interest in Betts and/or Price. Said teams layout the package they would be willing to part with which is greater than Verdugo/Graterol. Enough greater that a lesser prospect or more salary relief doesn’t compare.
Boston now uses this info as a baseline for what they would like in addition to the existing deal which causes both LA and Minnesota to waiver because it is a significant enough increase over the previous deal. Bloom can draw a hard line for their asking price knowing they have a fall back deal ready to go if this falls through. I think this would seem logical. Teams such as St Louis, Philadelphia, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington could potentially have a need for a one year superstar to push for a World Series and have enough payroll to carry added salary for one season and/or consider a long term deal next offseason. And of course San Diego still lingers.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 9, 2020 9:18:10 GMT -5
This whole framing of "they didn't realize he's a reliever" is bizarre. What baseball person even thinks in those terms? Literally every pitching prospect has some significant chance of becoming a reliever attached to them. Seriously? Obviously every front office realizes that a player might be a reliever. However, the Sox saw something in the medicals however, that made them think his arm might not be able to hold up to the innings a starter would have. Huge difference. I was referring back to this: The Twins were planning on using Graterol as a reliever. That makes sense given his delivery motion, history of arm and shoulder problems, and being significantly overweight. He missed two months last season due to injuries. All this information is publicly available. Why would the Red Sox think he could be a starter? Not a good start for Bloom and his scouting staff.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Feb 9, 2020 9:24:40 GMT -5
Here is a scenario that may be driving the holdup. Boston notices a medical red flag bringing hesitation to the original trade and a request for additional renumeration. At this time the holdup is reported and other teams call expressing interest in Betts and/or Price. Said teams layout the package they would be willing to part with which is greater than Verdugo/Graterol. Enough greater that a lesser prospect or more salary relief doesn’t compare. Boston now uses this info as a baseline for what they would like in addition to the existing deal which causes both LA and Minnesota to waiver because it is a significant enough increase over the previous deal. Bloom can draw a hard line for their asking price knowing they have a fall back deal ready to go if this falls through. I think this would seem logical. Teams such as St Louis, Philadelphia, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington could potentially have a need for a one year superstar to push for a World Series and have enough payroll to carry added salary for one season and/or consider a long term deal next offseason. And of course San Diego still lingers. Betts has been available all winter. If there was going to be a bidding war, why would it start now?
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Post by sarasoxer on Feb 9, 2020 9:32:43 GMT -5
Here is a scenario that may be driving the holdup. Boston notices a medical red flag bringing hesitation to the original trade and a request for additional renumeration. At this time the holdup is reported and other teams call expressing interest in Betts and/or Price. Said teams layout the package they would be willing to part with which is greater than Verdugo/Graterol. Enough greater that a lesser prospect or more salary relief doesn’t compare. Boston now uses this info as a baseline for what they would like in addition to the existing deal which causes both LA and Minnesota to waiver because it is a significant enough increase over the previous deal. Bloom can draw a hard line for their asking price knowing they have a fall back deal ready to go if this falls through. I think this would seem logical. Teams such as St Louis, Philadelphia, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington could potentially have a need for a one year superstar to push for a World Series and have enough payroll to carry added salary for one season and/or consider a long term deal next offseason. And of course San Diego still lingers. Betts has been available all winter. If there was going to be a bidding war, why would it start now? Different situation maybe, but that may not auger well for Betts in free agency either....could be a wake-up.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 9, 2020 9:40:18 GMT -5
With all the press about Bloom’s success with the Rays, a lot was expected of Him when he signed here. True, he faced a huge challenge in reducing payroll, but the way he has performed is something short of a disaster. His handling of the Betts saga is an embarrassment for the administration. And failing to name a manager with ST opening this week is inexcusable.
Henry/Werner’s failure to do due diligence on their President of baseball operations is as bad as their choice’s subsequent failures after his hire.
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Post by taftreign on Feb 9, 2020 9:42:13 GMT -5
Here is a scenario that may be driving the holdup. Boston notices a medical red flag bringing hesitation to the original trade and a request for additional renumeration. At this time the holdup is reported and other teams call expressing interest in Betts and/or Price. Said teams layout the package they would be willing to part with which is greater than Verdugo/Graterol. Enough greater that a lesser prospect or more salary relief doesn’t compare. Boston now uses this info as a baseline for what they would like in addition to the existing deal which causes both LA and Minnesota to waiver because it is a significant enough increase over the previous deal. Bloom can draw a hard line for their asking price knowing they have a fall back deal ready to go if this falls through. I think this would seem logical. Teams such as St Louis, Philadelphia, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington could potentially have a need for a one year superstar to push for a World Series and have enough payroll to carry added salary for one season and/or consider a long term deal next offseason. And of course San Diego still lingers. Betts has been available all winter. If there was going to be a bidding war, why would it start now? I would have to guess it is either a realization that what it would take to get Betts is less than they originally thought. That only makes sense if a team inexplicably didn’t check in with Boston during the process to ascertain his trade value. Or a regret for missing out on Betts either driven by an owner who now has unlocked more payroll for his GM to get Betts and keep him from LA or by a team with open payroll that just saw the Dodgers get better and become greater favorites to win the NL pennant and World Series desiring to level the playing field. It does seem odd that other teams are contacting Boston after the snag was reported to check in on Betts. Didn’t seem to be much reported outside of LA and San Diego initially.
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Post by tomhouse on Feb 9, 2020 9:49:39 GMT -5
With all the press about Bloom’s success with the Rays, a lot was expected of Him when he signed here. True, he faced a huge challenge in reducing payroll, but the way he has performed is something short of a disaster. His handling of the Betts saga is an embarrassment for the administration. And failing to name a manager with ST opening this week is inexcusable. Henry/Werner’s failure to do due diligence on their President of baseball operations is as bad as their choice’s subsequent failures after his hire. Let’s see how the Betts trade turns out before we crucify Bloom. I’d also like to see how he drafts, who else is acquired, how his acquisitions perform and so on. I think it is only fair to give the guy a chance before we bury him. They’re waiting to name a manager until the MLB determines what disciplinary action will be taken. I suppose that’s to make a clean break with the issue and to re-focus on the future.
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Post by iakovos11 on Feb 9, 2020 9:53:11 GMT -5
With all the press about Bloom’s success with the Rays, a lot was expected of Him when he signed here. True, he faced a huge challenge in reducing payroll, but the way he has performed is something short of a disaster. His handling of the Betts saga is an embarrassment for the administration. And failing to name a manager with ST opening this week is inexcusable. Henry/Werner’s failure to do due diligence on their President of baseball operations is as bad as their choice’s subsequent failures after his hire. You're joking, right?
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Post by chud on Feb 9, 2020 9:53:32 GMT -5
Here is a scenario that may be driving the holdup. Boston notices a medical red flag bringing hesitation to the original trade and a request for additional renumeration. At this time the holdup is reported and other teams call expressing interest in Betts and/or Price. Said teams layout the package they would be willing to part with which is greater than Verdugo/Graterol. Enough greater that a lesser prospect or more salary relief doesn’t compare. Boston now uses this info as a baseline for what they would like in addition to the existing deal which causes both LA and Minnesota to waiver because it is a significant enough increase over the previous deal. Bloom can draw a hard line for their asking price knowing they have a fall back deal ready to go if this falls through. I think this would seem logical. Teams such as St Louis, Philadelphia, NY Mets, Atlanta, Washington could potentially have a need for a one year superstar to push for a World Series and have enough payroll to carry added salary for one season and/or consider a long term deal next offseason. And of course San Diego still lingers. Betts has been available all winter. If there was going to be a bidding war, why would it start now? Totally agree...I can't believe I'm about to say this, as I think this guy is a stooge, but I think Heyman had a a pretty good take a day or two ago...I think the blowback on the trade in the media has give the Sox some hesitancy in the trade they were going to make and, at least in part, are using the Graterol medicals to up their ROI. This is not a knock against the ownership team as Henry et. al. have been unbelievable and have guided the org to 4 WS titles...in 2003 I think it's safe to say we would have given up a family member for that type of return and now it's reality...But, in the "no one is perfect but we demand perfection from our sports teams/ownership perspective, I never sensed the conviction in what I've read for the Sox to have a totally financially driven end goal for this year...And I think that the perception of the return being light because more emphasis was about shaving payroll to get under the LT was not a message ownership was comfortable with at all, because in fairness they've never driven the team that way and am sure they don't want part of the legacy of this ownership group to be that they traded away one of the most talented players they've ever developed for monetary reasons. The reality is the part that stinks. A 27yr old superstar with the ability/desire to test the FA market unless given a $400M contract is not the asset that everyone sees when they look at Betts...They only see what they want and that's the 27yr old superstar part. Enter Price as the problem...The link to Price with this trade screams $$ and rightly so. I'd be curious to see what a Betts Only trade w/ the Dodgers would look like. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wouldn't look a ton different in ROI and although it might remove some of the $$ stigma attached to Price, most fans would still think we're getting fleeced. So then this comes down to the fact that if the Sox knew they couldn't sign Betts last year, they should have shopped him...But we also know that wouldn't have happened as they were thinking they had a team that could repeat as champs. If that had worked out, then this is less of an issue but because it didn't we're left with a bit of a mess. No way this trade return ends up being anything most fans are going to appreciate because they don't look at Betts as a one year rental, which is what most of the MLB trade partners do look at him as.
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 10:13:26 GMT -5
How about this as compromise between those of us who didn’t like Graterol even before his meds, and those who did: even if he could end up a starter under certain circumstances, the fact that for even excellent pitching prospects the bullpen is often the likelier route makes one OF downgrade and a single fingers- crossed pitcher who has barely pitched above A ball (cup of coffee not withstanding) a pretty disappointing haul.
I think back on getting Webster and de la Rosa for AGon and Beckett. Two power arms with good secondaries. That looked like a strong haul with more advanced pitchers with awesome power stuff and... nada. Well, a year of Wade Miley.
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Post by azblue on Feb 9, 2020 10:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 9, 2020 10:26:56 GMT -5
I'd like to see the Sox either get Gonsolin and a lottery ticket type or deal for Gray and Downs. One or the other to try to recoup the value of the potential top of the rotation type they thought that Graterol could be if he his arm was up to it.
I think anything short of those values above and they're settling for less than they were seeking. If that's the case, then pull the plug on the deal. I think that's better than settling.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 9, 2020 10:30:21 GMT -5
Heyman is reporting that talks between the Sox and Dodgers are progressing.
I think we'll see the trade completed today, pending medicals for the new piece(s) of the deal.
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Post by dmaineah on Feb 9, 2020 10:34:38 GMT -5
Good, now let’s get Downs!
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Post by chr31ter on Feb 9, 2020 10:44:44 GMT -5
As an aside... the idea that since the Red Sox should have known that Graterol carried an unknown, but elevated level of risk that the team is somehow not allowed to reevaluate once they receive more information regarding the level of risk is absurd.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 9, 2020 10:55:02 GMT -5
As an aside... the idea that since the Red Sox should have known that Graterol carried an unknown, but elevated level of risk that the team is somehow not allowed to reevaluate once they receive more information regarding the level of risk is absurd. The people playing pretend team doctor by guessing are definitely being absurd. For all we know, it's written in the medical records that the shoulder issue was caused by throwing too many pitches in a short period of time. IOW, starting games. And that it's likely to happen again.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Feb 9, 2020 10:58:42 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal As @jonheyman reported, progress today in three-team Betts blockbuster - and yes, #MNTwins still involved, source says. 11:49 AM · Feb 9, 2020·Tweetbot for iΟS
The plot thickens.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 9, 2020 11:07:20 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal As @jonheyman reported, progress today in three-team Betts blockbuster - and yes, #MNTwins still involved, source says. 11:49 AM · Feb 9, 2020·Tweetbot for iΟS The plot thickens. Are you posting from the future?
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 11:07:29 GMT -5
As an aside... the idea that since the Red Sox should have known that Graterol carried an unknown, but elevated level of risk that the team is somehow not allowed to reevaluate once they receive more information regarding the level of risk is absurd. The people playing pretend team doctor by guessing are definitely being absurd. For all we know, it's written in the medical records that the shoulder issue was caused by throwing too many pitches in a short period of time. IOW, starting games. And that it's likely to happen again. That’s fine, and it is true people couldn’t know the medical issues, but that did not seem to be the issue for many of us who hated the deal before the pause even took effect. That there is a medical issue, though, is one of the things I hate about getting a single raw pitching prospect for your #2 starter and best player. Look at the ER and/or career graveyard of pitching prospects that have come and gone just with the Sox in recent years: Webster, de la Rosa, Espinosa, Kopech.... I might even be forgetting some. Kopech looks to be ok in the long run, but still. Basically, Graterol has to a) stay healthy, b) develop another pitch , and c) end up no less than a #3 starter for this to be a good haul. I don’t think it is ridiculous for many of us to hate the odds on all three of those things. All the way back to the Pomeranz trade I have been in favor of trading raw pitchers for MLB talent because of the risks involved. Let other teams take the risks, invest in field talent in the minors, get pitchers later. Worked with Pedro, Schilling, Sale, etc.
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Post by mainesox on Feb 9, 2020 11:08:33 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal As @jonheyman reported, progress today in three-team Betts blockbuster - and yes, #MNTwins still involved, source says. 11:49 AM · Feb 9, 2020·Tweetbot for iΟS The plot thickens. Can't figure out how to embed tweets, but he also tweeted: In current talks, #MNTwins are working hard to satisfy #Dodgers and the Dodgers are working hard to satisfy #RedSox, sources say. Two separate deals are possible (for example, Graterol-plus for Maeda and Verdugo and others for Betts/Price). But all three teams involved in talks.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,139
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Post by jimoh on Feb 9, 2020 11:09:38 GMT -5
I'd like to see the Sox either get Gonsolin and a lottery ticket type or deal for Gray and Downs.. Similarly, I’d like to have dinner tonight with Gillian Anderson.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 9, 2020 11:10:01 GMT -5
The people playing pretend team doctor by guessing are definitely being absurd. For all we know, it's written in the medical records that the shoulder issue was caused by throwing too many pitches in a short period of time. IOW, starting games. And that it's likely to happen again. That’s fine, and it is true people couldn’t know the medical issues, but that did not seem to be the issue for many of us who hated the deal before the pause even took effect. That there is a medical issue, though, is one of the things I hate about getting a single raw pitching prospect for your #2 starter and best player. Look at the ER and/or career graveyard of pitching prospects that gave come and go just with the Sox in recent years: Webster, de la Rosa, Espinosa, Kopech.... I might even be forgetting some. Kopech looks to be ok in the long run, but still. Basically, Graterol has to a) stay healthy, b) develop another pitch , and c) end up no less than a #3 starter for this to be a good haul. I don’t think it is ridiculous for many of us to hate the odds on all three of those things. All the way back to the Pomeranz trade I have been in favor of trading raw pitchers for MLB talent because of the risks involved. Let other teams take the risks, invest in field talent in the minors, get pitchers later. Worked with Pedro, Schilling, Sale, etc. People should stick to the logical arguments then, instead of lashing out in ridiculous childish ways. BTW, ERod worked out.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 9, 2020 11:14:00 GMT -5
Ken Rosenthal @ken_Rosenthal As @jonheyman reported, progress today in three-team Betts blockbuster - and yes, #MNTwins still involved, source says. 11:49 AM · Feb 9, 2020·Tweetbot for iΟS The plot thickens. Can't figure out how to embed tweets, but he also tweeted: In current talks, #MNTwins are working hard to satisfy #Dodgers and the Dodgers are working hard to satisfy #RedSox, sources say. Two separate deals are possible (for example, Graterol-plus for Maeda and Verdugo and others for Betts/Price). But all three teams involved in talks. FYI, just posting a tweet link should embed them automatically. And it's been a really long time mainesox, welcome back!
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Post by chr31ter on Feb 9, 2020 11:15:49 GMT -5
Alex Speier also reporting that there is "increased confidence" that the deal will be completed as two separate deals (LAD-MIN and LAD-BOS) rather than a true three-way trade.
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Post by Legion of Bloom on Feb 9, 2020 11:15:53 GMT -5
I hope that Bloom gets it right this time.
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