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Mookie Betts traded as part of a three-team deal
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Post by soxfan06 on Feb 9, 2020 20:21:42 GMT -5
Nah, we're negative about it because our franchise is idiotic for traded a 27 year old MVP. The best homegrown player we've developed in half a century. All in the name of saving our billionaire owner money. Such a joke. Dumbest decision this franchise has made since selling Babe Ruth. Well, when Babe Ruth played, he wouldn't have been allowed to leave via Free Agency the next year - or any year. Nobody loves trading Mookie, but he made it clear he wanted to test free agency. And the Mookie part had less to do with money than getting nothing in return when the farm is so weak there's nobody there to step up. Price was about the money. If you cannot see this was best for the long term health of the team, albeit a step back in 2020, then I'm sorry. But feel free to pick another favorite team. I mean, they'll disappoint you, too, eventually. No reason to stay here and keep whining about the Sox, though. Nah, I'll stay right here and call the owners of the team out when they make idiotic decisions all in the name of saving money. Thanks for the offer though.
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Post by chr31ter on Feb 9, 2020 20:24:08 GMT -5
Well, when Babe Ruth played, he wouldn't have been allowed to leave via Free Agency the next year - or any year. Nobody loves trading Mookie, but he made it clear he wanted to test free agency. And the Mookie part had less to do with money than getting nothing in return when the farm is so weak there's nobody there to step up. Price was about the money. If you cannot see this was best for the long term health of the team, albeit a step back in 2020, then I'm sorry. But feel free to pick another favorite team. I mean, they'll disappoint you, too, eventually. No reason to stay here and keep whining about the Sox, though. Nah, I'll stay right here and call the owners of the team out when they make idiotic decisions all in the name of saving money. Thanks for the offer though. Can you at least acknowledge that if they had missed the playoffs with Mookie and then lost him as a free agent, that would have been disasterous? It seems like the Red Sox thought this was a realistic scenario, and they didn't want to take the risk.
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 20:25:42 GMT -5
First off, it was Mookie AND Price (and half his pay). I think the latter has real value. So you trade away your #2 starter and best player. Fine. Defensible, but clearly that is a huge hit. In return, you have a RF who may be ok, but is obviously nowhere near Mookie. You get a 20-year-old 2B prospect in his 3rd organization with power and a lot of strikeouts. And a catcher who might not even project to make the majors. So the question is... when will real benefits come from this? Well... Downs is a bit away, so figure that still means both guys for Verdugo for about 2 years. The freed money better go to a big FA signing... and if that happens, maybe the team is back in business. But without spending that money well, the team is worse for this trade. You're looking at them purely for their downside and not their upside which I guess shouldn't be surprising but is ultimately illogical. Also, it's such a reach to use Downs being in his third organization is somehow a bad thing. That just means that teams covet him. Also, are you saying we only have Verdugo for 2 years? Because that's just not true. I get you're trying to spin this to look as bad as possible but you aren't doing a great job of it. I meant only Verdugo would be a factor for two years. I am not looking only at downside, but I am cautious about minor leaguers. There is a reason there are a gazillion of them. And even looking at each team’s top-10, the overall too-100, what have you... it is a crapshoot. Verdugo is likely close to being what he is, which is.... fine. Someone compared him to Nick Markakis. That would be wonderful if it happens, but also not the inner-core of a champion. I am a bit nervous about the lack of power in a long-term outfield with him and Beni at the corners. That puts huge pressure to get more out of CF abd 1B... and, if you are looking a few years away, likely DH. I hope Downs mashes. We’ll see.
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Post by jmanny24 on Feb 9, 2020 20:26:13 GMT -5
Well, when Babe Ruth played, he wouldn't have been allowed to leave via Free Agency the next year - or any year. Nobody loves trading Mookie, but he made it clear he wanted to test free agency. And the Mookie part had less to do with money than getting nothing in return when the farm is so weak there's nobody there to step up. Price was about the money. If you cannot see this was best for the long term health of the team, albeit a step back in 2020, then I'm sorry. But feel free to pick another favorite team. I mean, they'll disappoint you, too, eventually. No reason to stay here and keep whining about the Sox, though. Nah, I'll stay right here and call the owners of the team out when they make idiotic decisions all in the name of saving money [/b]. Thanks for the offer though.[/quote] You keep saying the 2nd bolded part even though multiple people have pointed out how untrue it is. So you would be ok with a 4th rd pick and even stiffer penalties that would hamstring the team organizationally? edit: Clearly I messed up the bolding, I am referring to it's all about the money.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,735
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Post by cdj on Feb 9, 2020 20:26:41 GMT -5
Imagine complaining that John Henry doesn’t spend enough money
Couldn’t be me. Then again, I’m a rational human being.
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 9, 2020 20:31:16 GMT -5
But it looks like the dodgers will still find a way to trade those guys.
So in a year they're really going for it by getting Mookie, they'll still trade off other useful parts in order to sneak under the luxury tax. Doubt they'll get the same criticism the Sox are getting.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,856
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Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 9, 2020 20:34:21 GMT -5
A few things to like and a few things not to like, IMO.
Bad: 1. Didn't get a SP prospect and we don't have anyone in our system who profiles as a top half of the rotation starter. I'm hoping we hold onto the 17th pick in this year's draft and CB is able to ID a college SP he likes. I trust his judgment.
2. I'm not thrilled about getting the 28th best prospect (Wong) in another organization's system. There's probably at least a 50-50 chance he'll never get more than a cup of coffee in The Show. But again, I trust CB. There's nothing in the reporting to indicate that other teams were clamoring to give up multiple top 10 guys for one year of Mookie.
3. The loss of Price is underrated. How do we stitch together 162 starts this year? I see 30 from E-Rod and then? There's nothing in Sale's history with the RS to indicate he'll make it to the finish line. Eo hasn't made 27 starts in five years. He's also not very good: career ERA-plus of 94 - though FIP and xFIP are a bit kinder to him. He has a 3.97 and 4.10 respectively, comppared to a career ERA of 4.30.
4. Verdugo's back. I also worry the press will crush the kid. It's not hard to see Shank going into all-out sanctimony mode and trying to wreck the kid's RS career.
Good: 1. Jetes sounds like a decent prospect who can slide into the 2B job in 2021.
2. Verdugo, if healthy, has upside as a LHH in Fenway and sounds like a guy who can handle RF, which is no small thing. A 114 OPS-plus and better-than-average defense is a decent player.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 9, 2020 20:35:36 GMT -5
The Dodgers arent selling low like we did with Price.
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 9, 2020 20:38:13 GMT -5
The Dodgers arent selling low like we did with Price. Price is 34 years old with a bloated contact, injury concerns, and his last three season fWAR totals have been 1.5, 2.4, and 2.3. Not sure there ever would have been an upcoming opportunity to sell high on him.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Feb 9, 2020 20:42:57 GMT -5
Mentioned this a couple times, but Betts' career OPS away from Fenway is .858 and Verdugo had a higher dWAR than Betts last year. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the Sox got the best player in this deal on top of everything else. I'd give it until May or June to see how everyone adapts to their new environments before grading this trade. lol no. That's literally the worst take in the history of this website. Dmaineah might have something to say about that.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 9, 2020 20:47:13 GMT -5
Maybe we can trade for Stripling now to start for us.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 9, 2020 20:48:10 GMT -5
A few things to like and a few things not to like, IMO. Bad:1. Didn't get a SP prospect and we don't have anyone in our system who profiles as a top half of the rotation starter. I'm hoping we hold onto the 17th pick in this year's draft and CB is able to ID a college SP he likes. I trust his judgment. 2. I'm not thrilled about getting the 28th best prospect (Wong) in another organization's system. There's probably at least a 50-50 chance he'll never get more than a cup of coffee in The Show. But again, I trust CB. There's nothing in the reporting to indicate that other teams were clamoring to give up multiple top 10 guys for one year of Mookie. 3. The loss of Price is underrated. How do we stitch together 162 starts this year? I see 30 from E-Rod and then? There's nothing in Sale's history with the RS to indicate he'll make it to the finish line. Eo hasn't made 27 starts in five years. He's also not very good: career ERA-plus of 94 - though FIP and xFIP are a bit kinder to him. He has a 3.97 and 4.10 respectively, comppared to a career ERA of 4.30. 4. Verdugo's back. I also worry the press will crush the kid. It's not hard to see Shank going into all-out sanctimony mode and trying to wreck the kid's RS career. Good:1. Jetes sounds like a decent prospect who can slide into the 2B job in 2021. 2. Verdugo, if healthy, has upside as a LHH in Fenway and sounds like a guy who can handle RF, which is no small thing. A 114 OPS-plus and better-than-average defense is a decent player. Wong is almost certainly not going to be their 28th best prospect on re-ranking. He should be higher than that.
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Post by mainesox on Feb 9, 2020 20:51:32 GMT -5
You're looking at them purely for their downside and not their upside which I guess shouldn't be surprising but is ultimately illogical. Also, it's such a reach to use Downs being in his third organization is somehow a bad thing. That just means that teams covet him. Also, are you saying we only have Verdugo for 2 years? Because that's just not true. I get you're trying to spin this to look as bad as possible but you aren't doing a great job of it. I meant only Verdugo would be a factor for two years. I am not looking only at downside, but I am cautious about minor leaguers. There is a reason there are a gazillion of them. And even looking at each team’s top-10, the overall too-100, what have you... it is a crapshoot. Verdugo is likely close to being what he is, which is.... fine. Someone compared him to Nick Markakis. That would be wonderful if it happens, but also not the inner-core of a champion. I am a bit nervous about the lack of power in a long-term outfield with him and Beni at the corners. That puts huge pressure to get more out of CF abd 1B... and, if you are looking a few years away, likely DH. I hope Downs mashes. We’ll see. Either I'm confused about what you're trying to say, or you're still wrong. Verdugo is under control through 2025.
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Post by nonothing on Feb 9, 2020 20:52:38 GMT -5
Haven’t checked yet — but how many guys on Dodgers 40 man with Sox and Twins deals happening, but Stripling trade failing to go through? I think they have to trade with somebody or have to DFA form the bottom of their roster.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Feb 9, 2020 20:55:47 GMT -5
Well, when Babe Ruth played, he wouldn't have been allowed to leave via Free Agency the next year - or any year. Nobody loves trading Mookie, but he made it clear he wanted to test free agency. And the Mookie part had less to do with money than getting nothing in return when the farm is so weak there's nobody there to step up. Price was about the money. If you cannot see this was best for the long term health of the team, albeit a step back in 2020, then I'm sorry. But feel free to pick another favorite team. I mean, they'll disappoint you, too, eventually. No reason to stay here and keep whining about the Sox, though. Nah, I'll stay right here and call the owners of the team out when they make idiotic decisions all in the name of saving money. Thanks for the offer though. Feel free to rebut the points.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,735
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Post by cdj on Feb 9, 2020 20:56:19 GMT -5
I meant only Verdugo would be a factor for two years. I am not looking only at downside, but I am cautious about minor leaguers. There is a reason there are a gazillion of them. And even looking at each team’s top-10, the overall too-100, what have you... it is a crapshoot. Verdugo is likely close to being what he is, which is.... fine. Someone compared him to Nick Markakis. That would be wonderful if it happens, but also not the inner-core of a champion. I am a bit nervous about the lack of power in a long-term outfield with him and Beni at the corners. That puts huge pressure to get more out of CF abd 1B... and, if you are looking a few years away, likely DH. I hope Downs mashes. We’ll see. Either I'm confused about what you're trying to say, or you're still wrong. Verdugo is under control through 2025. I think he’s saying the guy who was a 3 WAR starter on a contender in 380 at bats won’t make an impact for 3 years, is this correct?
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Feb 9, 2020 20:58:49 GMT -5
Haven’t checked yet — but how many guys on Dodgers 40 man with Sox and Twins deals happening, but Stripling trade failing to go through? I think they have to trade with somebody or have to DFA form the bottom of their roster. Good catch. I think after the trades go through that would put them at 42.
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 21:02:44 GMT -5
I meant only Verdugo would be a factor for two years. I am not looking only at downside, but I am cautious about minor leaguers. There is a reason there are a gazillion of them. And even looking at each team’s top-10, the overall too-100, what have you... it is a crapshoot. Verdugo is likely close to being what he is, which is.... fine. Someone compared him to Nick Markakis. That would be wonderful if it happens, but also not the inner-core of a champion. I am a bit nervous about the lack of power in a long-term outfield with him and Beni at the corners. That puts huge pressure to get more out of CF abd 1B... and, if you are looking a few years away, likely DH. I hope Downs mashes. We’ll see. Either I'm confused about what you're trying to say, or you're still wrong. Verdugo is under control through 2025. You are confused. Verdugo will start next year. Downs will be in AA. Year after: Verdugo will start. Downs will likely start in the minors. Maaaaybbbee he comes up and starts as that season progresses. But until then, the only player we get who is a factor for the Red Sox is Verdugo. Nothing about how long he is a factor. We traded our #2starter and starting right fielder, got back a lesser rf for the foreseeable future. In two years, maybe that is RF and 2B.
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 21:03:26 GMT -5
Either I'm confused about what you're trying to say, or you're still wrong. Verdugo is under control through 2025. I think he’s saying the guy who was a 3 WAR starter on a contender in 380 at bats won’t make an impact for 3 years, is this correct? Not even close to what I was saying. Edit: to be as clear as possible: Verdugo might play 20 years. Next Dwight Evans. Until Downs makes the bigs, which could be 2 years from now, he is the only tangible return. So this trade makes the team worse for that span, with a TBD on Downs’s contribution.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Feb 9, 2020 21:04:02 GMT -5
Cough cough emergency podcast cough cough. : )
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Post by dmaineah on Feb 9, 2020 21:06:16 GMT -5
I love that we got Downs! I know most think he might be the next 2B but I think he might be the next CF
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 9, 2020 21:08:50 GMT -5
I love that we got Downs! I know most think he might be the next 2B but I think he might be the next CF Of course you do.
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Post by mainesox on Feb 9, 2020 21:08:54 GMT -5
Either I'm confused about what you're trying to say, or you're still wrong. Verdugo is under control through 2025. You are confused. Verdugo will start next year. Downs will be in AA. Year after: Verdugo will start. Downs will likely start in the minors. Maaaaybbbee he comes up and starts as that season progresses. But until then, the only player we get who is a factor for the Red Sox is Verdugo. Nothing about how long he is a factor. We traded our #2starter and starting right fielder, got back a lesser rf for the foreseeable future. In two years, maybe that is RF and 2B. Okay, I get what you're saying now. I still think you're probably wrong, but it makes sense at least. Downs was in AA to end last season, and is sure to start this season in AA as well. If he does reasonably well he'll likely be moved up to AAA at some point and probably get a call up in September (again, assuming he has a reasonably successful season).
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 9, 2020 21:25:27 GMT -5
This is all good stuff on Downs
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Post by nonothing on Feb 9, 2020 21:25:45 GMT -5
You are confused. Verdugo will start next year. Downs will be in AA. Year after: Verdugo will start. Downs will likely start in the minors. Maaaaybbbee he comes up and starts as that season progresses. But until then, the only player we get who is a factor for the Red Sox is Verdugo. Nothing about how long he is a factor. We traded our #2starter and starting right fielder, got back a lesser rf for the foreseeable future. In two years, maybe that is RF and 2B. Okay, I get what you're saying now. I still think you're probably wrong, but it makes sense at least. Downs was in AA to end last season, and is sure to start this season in AA as well. If he does reasonably well he'll likely be moved up to AAA at some point and probably get a call up in September (again, assuming he has a reasonably successful season). Wong and Downs both likely start in AA and end in AAA if they do well. Wong will be Rule 5 draft eligible in 2020, so would probably get called up in September. But Downs would not be Rule 5 eligible until 2021 I think (please correct me if I am wrong). Assuming this is correct, they may want to use the Roster spot another way in September and through the next offseason, so he might not get a callup in Sept, even if his playing appears to have “earned it.”
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