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2021 MLB Draft
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Post by Guidas on Jun 10, 2021 16:02:14 GMT -5
Because it sure would be nicer to get an impact middle of order player. Whoa - who's to say Davis with that bat is not that guy? This is not the strongest draft for the hit tool and a true impact bat - 60+ power 60+ hit tool - is very, very rare. Sox'd be better off buying that or trading for a proven MLB impact bat. But trading would cost all their best prospects and maybe even a good MLB player - which runs counter to the current philosophy. But if you buy it, the player has to be available and young/healthy enough not to go directly to DH or you will be spending a ton for a one-dimensional player for several years (I am not personally against this, btw, if it's the right one-dimensional player or a substandard fielder with pop. Say, if they got Nelson Cruz in 2013 like Papi begged them to). For free agents, you may be able to call Kris Bryant (30 yrs old) or Castellanos (29) that kind of guy, but they're not likely to take a deal for less than 5 years and will prob want at least six. As for younger middle of the order talent in MLB, what GM would trade Vlady, Winker, Devers, Mullins or Acuna Jr?
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Jun 10, 2021 16:04:51 GMT -5
How many truly elite catchers are there in MLB?? Gun shy from being told Matt Wieters would be a thing for a decade, only to see him break down at age 27. by my count, 3 really. Perez, Molina, Realmuto. Everyone else I consider a shade below elite. It actually irks me that MLB still rates Gary Sanchez as one of the top catchers. After that my hall of very good includes: Vasquez Mccann Nola Grandal D'arnaud Smith
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Post by Guidas on Jun 10, 2021 16:15:33 GMT -5
Gun shy from being told Matt Wieters would be a thing for a decade, only to see him break down at age 27. by my count, 3 really. Perez, Molina, Realmuto. Everyone else I consider a shade below elite. It actually irks me that MLB still rates Gary Sanchez as one of the top catchers. After that my hall of very good includes: Vasquez Mccann Nola Grandal D'arnaud Smith There is the theory, held by many, that if you're going to lose OBP/BA with a player (i.e. sub-MLB average), trading it for an excellent defensive catcher is the spot to do it.
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Post by soxaddict on Jun 10, 2021 16:16:28 GMT -5
If If Mayer and Lawler are gone then I'm fine with taking Davis at #4. I'd be torn if Leiter is still available, but still would be satisfied with Davis.
What are the odds of Jayden Hill being available at #40? And could we afford to sign him? Forgive my ignorance about draft slot values.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Jun 10, 2021 16:25:53 GMT -5
by my count, 3 really. Perez, Molina, Realmuto. Everyone else I consider a shade below elite. It actually irks me that MLB still rates Gary Sanchez as one of the top catchers. After that my hall of very good includes: Vasquez Mccann Nola Grandal D'arnaud Smith There is the theory, held by many, that if you're going to lose OBP/BA with a player (i.e. sub-MLB average), trading it for an excellent defensive catcher is the spot to do it. You're talking to the Sandy Leon fan club here, so no arguments from me. We just watched a guy leave in JBJ whose defensive value propped him up his entire career. You think there is any chance JBJ drops that fly in the first last night because he couldn't take charge? It's not always visible to the naked eye, but there is real value to guys who can actually man their position appropriately.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 10, 2021 17:00:04 GMT -5
Literally the 2019 draft had a catcher picked and he looks like a future superstar Also I don’t care about past precedent, I look at the individual. And this individual is inarguably the best college bat on the board. He’s got a great approach, great exit velo’s, athleticism, and a cannon There is nothing not to like other than “uhhh catcher!” and that’s not enough for me given what he brings to the table. Looks like ...... trey ball looked like David price or Clayton kershaw till he wasn’t quite that. Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about
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Post by fisterroboto on Jun 10, 2021 18:12:14 GMT -5
In a draft where SS and SP have a ton of Helium and they go with a Catcher? That would annoy me too. Whose the last catcher that went in the top 10 that became a superstar? I would think the hit rate is much higher with SS or SP. I've been on the Leiter train all year. Pedigree is fantastic as is the stuff. Catcher is a high-value position in MLB. By all indications, Davis can stay behind the plate with a very good arm and has the tools to be an above average MLB offensive player. That makes him an All Star with regards to the position and a valuable asset. My preference at 4 would be Davis, but you could make the case that his profile is closer to Schwarber than any other player on that list posted earlier. Everyone else, that I can remember pre-draft, was a no-doubt catcher. Often with plus or plus-plus defense. That doesn't appear to be the case with Davis. I'm just using McDaniels as a source on this one, but he mentions the 80 arm with not good defense. He also adds that it's a good thing for Davis that we have robo-umps happening soon, because that's part of the reason he'll stick at C. I hadn't seen that was definitely happening, and Kiley would know more than most people, but if it doesn't - Davis could pretty easily end up at a corner somewhere.
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 10, 2021 19:57:00 GMT -5
Looks like ...... trey ball looked like David price or Clayton kershaw till he wasn’t quite that. Huh? That's not even a close comparison. Ball was a very raw & athletic HS pitcher. It was all about projection. Nobody ever compared him to Price or Kershaw. Davis is a much more experienced and refined ballplayer. He's a starter and best player for a top team in a power conference. He's succeeded against many of the top collegiate baseball players in the country. He's the antithesis of Trey Ball. Accept that’s exactly who trey ball was compared to in high school at time of the draft!
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 10, 2021 19:59:50 GMT -5
Because it sure would be nicer to get an impact middle of order player. Whoa - who's to say Davis with that bat is not that guy? This is not the strongest draft for the hit tool and a true impact bat - 60+ power 60+ hit tool - is very, very rare. Sox'd be better off buying that or trading for a proven MLB impact bat. But trading would cost all their best prospects and maybe even a good MLB player - which runs counter to the current philosophy. But if you buy it, the player has to be available and young/healthy enough not to go directly to DH or you will be spending a ton for a one-dimensional player for several years (I am not personally against this, btw, if it's the right one-dimensional player or a substandard fielder with pop. Say, if they got Nelson Cruz in 2013 like Papi begged them to). For free agents, you may be able to call Kris Bryant (30 yrs old) or Castellanos (29) that kind of guy, but they're not likely to take a deal for less than 5 years and will prob want at least six. As for younger middle of the order talent in MLB, what GM would trade Vlady, Winker, Devers, Mullins or Acuna Jr? [br Let’s be clear. Davis isn’t acuna, vlad, devers and has never played outfielder even. And he doesn’t play a middle of order position be it shortstop. 2b. Or cf.
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Post by kman22 on Jun 10, 2021 20:06:03 GMT -5
Whoa - who's to say Davis with that bat is not that guy? This is not the strongest draft for the hit tool and a true impact bat - 60+ power 60+ hit tool - is very, very rare. Sox'd be better off buying that or trading for a proven MLB impact bat. But trading would cost all their best prospects and maybe even a good MLB player - which runs counter to the current philosophy. But if you buy it, the player has to be available and young/healthy enough not to go directly to DH or you will be spending a ton for a one-dimensional player for several years (I am not personally against this, btw, if it's the right one-dimensional player or a substandard fielder with pop. Say, if they got Nelson Cruz in 2013 like Papi begged them to). For free agents, you may be able to call Kris Bryant (30 yrs old) or Castellanos (29) that kind of guy, but they're not likely to take a deal for less than 5 years and will prob want at least six. As for younger middle of the order talent in MLB, what GM would trade Vlady, Winker, Devers, Mullins or Acuna Jr? [br Let’s be clear. Davis isn’t acuna, vlad, devers and has never played outfielder even. And he doesn’t play a middle of order position be it shortstop. 2b. Or cf. Think middle of the order means batting 3-4-5. Building up the middle is players at C, SS, 2B, and CF, if I'm not mistaken.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jun 10, 2021 20:11:30 GMT -5
[br Let’s be clear. Davis isn’t acuna, vlad, devers and has never played outfielder even. And he doesn’t play a middle of order position be it shortstop. 2b. Or cf. Think middle of the order means batting 3-4-5. Building up the middle is players at C, SS, 2B, and CF, if I'm not mistaken. DYoungTeach: You know, it's possible, when you have quickly written a draft of a post, to look over it before you click "create post," and consider whether you have completely misunderstood something or gotten some facts wrong, so that your good, smart, thoughtful posts are not outweighed in people's minds by your hasty, faulty, confused ones.
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 10, 2021 20:33:09 GMT -5
Looks like ...... trey ball looked like David price or Clayton kershaw till he wasn’t quite that. Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link....
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 10, 2021 20:38:31 GMT -5
[br Let’s be clear. Davis isn’t acuna, vlad, devers and has never played outfielder even. And he doesn’t play a middle of order position be it shortstop. 2b. Or cf. Think middle of the order means batting 3-4-5. Building up the middle is players at C, SS, 2B, and CF, if I'm not mistaken. Yes corrected. Fast typing. Many hitters are middle of order hitters. But teams are built up middle. Vasquez proves you don’t need to take a catcher at 4. And we have Wong and Hernandez.
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 10, 2021 20:51:50 GMT -5
I truly believe bloom could be a really good poker player. I thought I had read he values catchers in the system. And we all know value of pitching.
We will miss on someone I’m sure. And hopefully not blow the pick. I don’t understand picking catcher or pitcher here when your franchise shortstop could be here. ( lawyer, Watson etc). But I do trust this group to load us up with plenty of intriguing prospects to keep us in contention for years. And I trust the ownership to apply pressure to get a knockout blow when the time comes. ( Ie trading some of these drafted players away).
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 10, 2021 20:58:59 GMT -5
Davis is the best hitter in this draft, and if you don’t believe in his glove he has plenty of arm for 3B/OF. He could be in the middle of the your order in a few years. If Lawlar or Mayer had that type of projection they’d have separated themselves as the #1 pick. You hope those guys develop that type of offensive potential. And I like Lawlar/Mayer, I’d be very excited to have one of those two in our system. But Davis is exciting too, he might even go #1 for all we know. His name has been floated there.
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Post by jayhawk on Jun 10, 2021 21:03:25 GMT -5
Think middle of the order means batting 3-4-5. Building up the middle is players at C, SS, 2B, and CF, if I'm not mistaken. Yes corrected. Fast typing. Many hitters are middle of order hitters. But teams are built up middle. Vasquez proves you don’t need to take a catcher at 4. And we have Wong and Hernandez. I'm not following... how does Vazquez prove you don't need to take a catcher at 4? He has accumulated 4.6 bWAR over 7 seasons. Are you saying Catcher is the only position where you can find replacement-level players later in the draft?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 10, 2021 21:19:12 GMT -5
For those who don't like Davis, I'm not saying you have to like him, but... have you all even read the scouting reports? He's a 50 or 55 hit, 55 power college bat who has a 70 arm at catcher and probably sticks, especially with robo umps. Keith Law, definitely his biggest backer: "Louisville catcher Henry Davis has an incredible eye at the plate, rarely swinging and missing, making hard contact with power, and showing a plus arm with good hands on defense."
He's one of the best college hitters available, and happens to play catcher. People are talking about him like they'd be taking Tim Federowicz at 1-4. Like I said, not wanting Davis is fine but like, he's probably the best college hitter, full stop. There's a legit chance the team taking him decides to move him off catcher to maximize his bat. Saying you don't want them to take him because you want someone who's a better hitter doesn't make a ton of sense. Like Lawlar and Mayer have higher offensive ceilings, for sure, but they also have the uncertainty and risk of HS players. I'm seeing arguments against Davis that are literally making the point to draft him!
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 10, 2021 21:26:02 GMT -5
Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link.... I mean a prep school cold weather pitcher who is all projection is not a comparable to Adley Rutschmann, the #2 overall prospect in baseball who was an elite college player and bat. Henry Davis is also now where near what Ball was as a prospect So yeah...preposterous
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 10, 2021 21:48:19 GMT -5
Go up and down the draft board for the first round every year. All these guys are being compared to all star players. The fact that a guy like Trey Ball, was given an absurd comparison was no less absurd every other time it’s done.
Marcelo Mayer is Corey Seager and Brandon Crawford. Jordan Lawlar is Xander Bogaerts Jack Leiter is Sony Grey
They give you something to dream on, it’s a cheap way to write up a guys ceiling, but that’s the thing about prospects. They all won’t get that high.
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Post by adamgregory on Jun 10, 2021 22:48:15 GMT -5
Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link.... I think you mean “except, it’s not”? I might also suggest distinguishing comparisons. That is, maybe Trey Ball was a lot like high school Chris Sale because he was left handed, athletic, had an awkward throwing motion, pitched in a cold weather state, etc. (I don’t actually remember, I do remember seeing him with that great Salem team back in 17. He sat next to my wife and I. He was taking notes from behind the seats behind home plate and my wife struck up a conversation. He was very kind and gregarious but also clearly defeated, he had that kind of desperation a thing exudes when it is willing to do anything and everything to get what it wants, but has just recognized that even giving its anything and everything is (probably) just not enough.) but “he looks like Chris sale” “he throws like Chris sale” “ he has a similar frame to Chris sale” “he projects to be Chris Sale” and “based on his numbers over the first three years of his minor league career, he looks like he will be an all star” are obviously very different comparison. a Pudu is like a moose. It walks on 4 legs, has antlers and fur, and lives in the woods, but a Pudu is not a moose.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 10, 2021 23:12:12 GMT -5
People are just traumatized by the Trey Ball pick. It’s really as simple as that. Especially since Meadows was available and that’s who they thought we’d get and he has been kick ass.
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Post by homerdante on Jun 10, 2021 23:14:16 GMT -5
People are just traumatized by the Trey Ball pick. It’s really as simple as that. Especially since Meadows was available and that’s who they thought we’d get and he has been kick ass. I think you mean devastated.
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Post by tyler3 on Jun 10, 2021 23:24:24 GMT -5
For those who don't like Davis, I'm not saying you have to like him, but... have you all even read the scouting reports? He's a 50 or 55 hit, 55 power college bat who has a 70 arm at catcher and probably sticks, especially with robo umps. Keith Law, definitely his biggest backer: "Louisville catcher Henry Davis has an incredible eye at the plate, rarely swinging and missing, making hard contact with power, and showing a plus arm with good hands on defense." He's one of the best college hitters available, and happens to play catcher. People are talking about him like they'd be taking Tim Federowicz at 1-4. Like I said, not wanting Davis is fine but like, he's probably the best college hitter, full stop. There's a legit chance the team taking him decides to move him off catcher to maximize his bat. Saying you don't want them to take him because you want someone who's a better hitter doesn't make a ton of sense. Like Lawlar and Mayer have higher offensive ceilings, for sure, but they also have the uncertainty and risk of HS players. I'm seeing arguments against Davis that are literally making the point to draft him! There are guys who spout off like me, and a couple that do some real research, not me. The whole robot umpire thing has been covered here, but I thought I read that somewhere in the minors they were trying a new rule that really made it hard to pick off runners thus enhancing the stealing game. A post said it’s like a track meet down there. I’ve had a long day and a few IPAs, I’m not gonna look it up. But would one of the more fact driven threadsters check this out and report on the validity on the theory that soon stealing in the majors is going to be much more of a thing thus a catcher with a rocket arm could potentially be much more valuable soon as the trend of low steal attempts may be in for a huge reverse? Thanks..as I crack open a fresh one.
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Post by tyler3 on Jun 10, 2021 23:28:06 GMT -5
Also wanted to report that Watson had his first strikeout of the season 2 days ago so he’s now dead to me.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 10, 2021 23:53:33 GMT -5
People are just traumatized by the Trey Ball pick. It’s really as simple as that. Especially since Meadows was available and that’s who they thought we’d get and he has been kick ass. I think you mean devastated. ...both, and we could add many more (pained, upset, disturbed,...) welcome to the board.
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