SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
2021 MLB Draft
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 10, 2021 23:56:38 GMT -5
... a Pudu is like a moose. It walks on 4 legs, has antlers and fur, and lives in the woods, but a Pudu is not a moose. I learned a new critter! Welcome to the board.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2021 0:20:06 GMT -5
Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link.... Trey Ball was never comped as either of those guys. We all knew he was a project. You are totoally misremembering. Nobody was like, "Cool we just drafted the next Chris Sale". We were all like, "Why not Meadows?" And "hope this gamble pays off". You've mentioned about 1000 times that you wouldn't draft a pitcher that high up. I get why, with injuries, etc.....but there is nothing more valuable than a young ace. If you think that the guy you're drafting has a legit shot to be one, you do it. Once, in the 1st round, the Sox hit pay dirt on that. They drafted Roger Clemens (albeit later in the first round, true) - but I bet you about 18 other teams wished they had instead of the Red Sox! And no, nobody thought Trey Ball could be the next Clemens either. He was semi-controversial (although not totally unexpected) when he was selected by the Sox as far as I remember what the consensus on this board was at the time.
|
|
|
Post by ocdss on Jun 11, 2021 5:34:35 GMT -5
As I remember it, Clint Frazier was the top target in that draft, and we were bummed that Cleveland took him. Meadows was seen as having solid tools across the board, but nothing spectacular. We may have had a bit of David Murphy trauma on that one…
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,121
|
Post by jimoh on Jun 11, 2021 6:13:11 GMT -5
Lol preposterous comparison Also he’s the best college bat regardless of position. So unless you think there are zero middle of the order hitters then idk what you’re complaining about Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link.... This is preposterous. I will not "accept it's not." Trey Ball and Chris Sale are tall and lanky. That's all they said. Many analysts do body comps. Some are very lazy. When we got Freddy Valdez last week many many people compared Valdez to Franmil Reyes of the Indians because they are both very large. Doesn't mean anyone thinks he's likely to have a Franmil Reyes career. Nobody said "hey we got the next Chris Sale." We were there. Everybody was surprised he was picked so high and knew he was a gamble who might have a chance to pan out. You really don't want people to think you can't tell the difference between a body comp and a claim that someone is the next Chris Sale.
|
|
|
Post by vermontsox1 on Jun 11, 2021 6:35:48 GMT -5
Let's not rehash the Trey Ball pick in this thread please.
Also, one month away....
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on Jun 11, 2021 9:22:48 GMT -5
Yes corrected. Fast typing. Many hitters are middle of order hitters. But teams are built up middle. Vasquez proves you don’t need to take a catcher at 4. And we have Wong and Hernandez. I'm not following... how does Vazquez prove you don't need to take a catcher at 4? He has accumulated 4.6 bWAR over 7 seasons. Are you saying Catcher is the only position where you can find replacement-level players later in the draft? You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers.
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on Jun 11, 2021 9:27:02 GMT -5
Accept it’s not. That’s exactly who trey ball was being talked about like. Or actually I’m sorry. Forgive me. He was comped as Chris sale. Hmmm whoops. And if you think that’s preposterous then sorry I can send the link.... I mean a prep school cold weather pitcher who is all projection is not a comparable to Adley Rutschmann, the #2 overall prospect in baseball who was an elite college player and bat. Henry Davis is also now where near what Ball was as a prospect So yeah...preposterous Sorry. But that’s who trey ball was compared to. Chris sale/kershaw. Sorry that you don’t like it. But it was there. And that pick was a mistake.
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,659
|
Post by cdj on Jun 11, 2021 9:29:19 GMT -5
Yeah not worth my time anymore, just digging yourself in and being willfully obtuse at this point when you have an entire thread explaining why you’re wrong.
Davis is the best college bat. Point blank. Period. That’s all that matters to me. Doesn’t matter what position he is, it’s just a plus that he’s a catcher in my eyes. And there is difference between elite college bats and cold weather high school pitchers.
|
|
|
Post by swingingbunt on Jun 11, 2021 9:46:23 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2021 10:07:05 GMT -5
You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers. Do you have any backup for this versus other positions? Is Mookie Betts proof you can get all-star level outfielders in the 5th round and later? Marcus Semien proof of shortstops? Jacob deGrom proof you can get 80-level pitchers? I'm not saying I do or don't believe your statement, but the only name you keep saying is Vazquez who I would not say is an all-star level catcher, but rather an average regular (a terrific result from a 9th round pick). I'm skeptical that there is a given position that is more prone to leading to successful picks later in the draft, although maybe someone's done the math there. There are two elite catchers in baseball by my estimation, Realmuto and Grandal. One was a third-round pick and the other was a first-round pick. In MLB.com's top catching prospects list, the top 10 are four first-round picks, a seventh-round pick, and five IFAs. Sorry. But that’s who trey ball was compared to. Chris sale/kershaw. Sorry that you don’t like it. But it was there. And that pick was a mistake. You keep saying this but I do not remember it at all. Do you have a link? The following is Baseball America's draft report. No mention of Chris Sale or Clayton Kershaw or anything remotely resembling it. I'm sure you'll say everyone is ganging up on you, but if you're going to throw things like "Trey Ball got compared to Clayton Kershaw and Chris Sale" and "it's proven that you can get all-star catchers later in the draft" out there, you need to be able to actually back those statements up here.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2021 10:13:29 GMT -5
I'm not following... how does Vazquez prove you don't need to take a catcher at 4? He has accumulated 4.6 bWAR over 7 seasons. Are you saying Catcher is the only position where you can find replacement-level players later in the draft? You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers. If he's the best player available you draft him. Period. This "we already have Josh Gibson, Johnny Bench, and Yogi Berra in our system already, so we don't need to draft him" or "It's proven....." stuff is nonsense. You take the best player available. Period. Regardless if he's a catcher, a pitcher, or whatever. It's like you want to type cast what the pick should be as if everything is a hard and fast rule when it's really simple. BPA. The hard part is determining that, which is why the Sox send their scouts out so they can figure that part out, and yes that usually gets determined by the defensive spectrum (a 1b for example would have to be so prolific offensively that he stands out above all others left to draft for example). But everything else is noise.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jun 11, 2021 10:25:46 GMT -5
To be fair, I do remember the Kershaw comparisons, which were based on being a high school pitcher taken #7 overall (so even moree arbitrary than a body type comp). But as others have said, the mere fact that comparisons were made means nothing, and no sane person ever said: "They were both taken #7; ergo, Trey Ball is the next Clayton Kershaw."
In a similar vein, I remember a lot of Logan Allen/Jon Lester comparisons...
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2021 10:29:56 GMT -5
To be fair, I do remember the Kershaw comparisons, which were based on being a high school pitcher taken #7 overall (so even moree arbitrary than a body type comp). But as others have said, the mere fact that comparisons were made means nothing, and no sane person ever said: "They were both taken #7; ergo, Trey Ball is the next Clayton Kershaw." In a similar vein, I remember a lot of Logan Allen/Jon Lester comparisons... So far I think Jon Lester will have had the better career Lester has (below the border) borderline HOF numbers for his career (given that 300 win pitchers are now dinosaurs), but honestly for all the anguish about losing Logan Allen, he doesn't seem like much more than a back-end starter, if that. I guess we'll see.
|
|
jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,121
|
Post by jimoh on Jun 11, 2021 10:43:13 GMT -5
I'm not following... how does Vazquez prove you don't need to take a catcher at 4? He has accumulated 4.6 bWAR over 7 seasons. Are you saying Catcher is the only position where you can find replacement-level players later in the draft? You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers. This is like saying "it's easy to become a millionaire by investing. You just buy stocks before they go way up." It completely overlooks the fact that finding good catchers later is a complete crapshoot. If we draft catchers in the 5th and 6th and 7th rounds, the chances that any of them ever play mlb, much less be good, are far less than the chances that the particular catcher Davis will become very good. That you keep making terrible flawed arguments like this is just astounding. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but you sound like you're 12.
|
|
|
Post by stevedillard on Jun 11, 2021 10:56:01 GMT -5
Hi, my name is Steve, and I make snap judgments on prospects.
I was super worried about Lester after his GCL season.
I'm being serious. And to relate it back to Ball, was super worried after his first starts, and the next year when he wasn't assigned to Greenville at the start of the year.
So Jordan Lawlar better have a good first game in Ft. Myers
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on Jun 11, 2021 11:00:23 GMT -5
You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers. This is like saying "it's easy to become a millionaire by investing. You just buy stocks before they go way up." It completely overlooks the fact that finding good catchers later is a complete crapshoot. If we draft catchers in the 5th and 6th and 7th rounds, the chances that any of them ever play mlb, much less be good, are far less than the chances that the particular catcher Davis will become very good. That you keep making terrible flawed arguments like this is just astounding. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but you sound like you're 12. Not to be a jerk but this isn't the only thread.
|
|
|
Post by jlechan on Jun 11, 2021 11:01:02 GMT -5
I don't want Davis either. But it's not because he's a catcher. I just think he's the "safe" pick - a higher floor, lower ceiling guy - and that's not what I want at #4. The Red Sox (hopefully) will not be picking this high again any time soon. I want Bloom to knock it out of the park with this pick and add a franchise cornerstone. That's why I want a prep SS or a top-of-the-rotation pitcher. I leave it up to Bloom to correctly identify who that will be.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Jun 11, 2021 11:08:10 GMT -5
I've been cool with standout college hitters with a high floor and low ceiling ever since the Red Sox drafted one in the second round and had him win the American League MVP four years later.
|
|
|
Post by jlechan on Jun 11, 2021 11:15:26 GMT -5
I've been cool with standout college hitters with a high floor and low ceiling ever since the Red Sox drafted one in the second round and had him win the American League MVP four years later. I'd be cool with a college hitter with a high floor and lower ceiling in the 2nd round too!
|
|
|
Post by vermontsox1 on Jun 11, 2021 11:21:49 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by chr31ter on Jun 11, 2021 11:32:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on Jun 11, 2021 11:43:23 GMT -5
You don’t need to spend pick 4 on a catcher when we have 2 already and it’s proven catchers are drafted later all the time and obtain all star level catchers. Do you have any backup for this versus other positions? Is Mookie Betts proof you can get all-star level outfielders in the 5th round and later? Marcus Semien proof of shortstops? Jacob deGrom proof you can get 80-level pitchers? I'm not saying I do or don't believe your statement, but the only name you keep saying is Vazquez who I would not say is an all-star level catcher, but rather an average regular (a terrific result from a 9th round pick). I'm skeptical that there is a given position that is more prone to leading to successful picks later in the draft, although maybe someone's done the math there. There are two elite catchers in baseball by my estimation, Realmuto and Grandal. One was a third-round pick and the other was a first-round pick. In MLB.com's top catching prospects list, the top 10 are four first-round picks, a seventh-round pick, and five IFAs. Sorry. But that’s who trey ball was compared to. Chris sale/kershaw. Sorry that you don’t like it. But it was there. And that pick was a mistake. You keep saying this but I do not remember it at all. Do you have a link? The following is Baseball America's draft report. No mention of Chris Sale or Clayton Kershaw or anything remotely resembling it. I'm sure you'll say everyone is ganging up on you, but if you're going to throw things like "Trey Ball got compared to Clayton Kershaw and Chris Sale" and "it's proven that you can get all-star catchers later in the draft" out there, you need to be able to actually back those statements up here. Hmmmm. And that was by a quick search. www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1641645-trey-ball-prospect-profile-full-draft-scouting-report-for-lhpof-prospect.amp.html
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 15,659
|
Post by cdj on Jun 11, 2021 11:45:04 GMT -5
Bleacher Report 2013 is your evidence lol
Also it’s completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and has nothing to do with elite college catchers so I still don’t understand the point in bringing it up
|
|
|
Post by tyler3 on Jun 11, 2021 11:52:06 GMT -5
Tyler 12:45 Would you consider Henry Davis a top 4 draft prospect? Eric A Longenhagen
12:46 On Davis: Hell yes
|
|
|
Post by ramireja on Jun 11, 2021 12:00:42 GMT -5
This convo isn't terribly productive right now and its hurting my brain. lets move on.
Some actual draft content:
|
|
|