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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 11, 2021 15:27:23 GMT -5
Like somebody else said, why would you use Bleacher Report as your source? That guy isn't a scout and it's a ridiculous comp. I don't know of anything scouting based that had Chris Sale as a legit comp. I don't remember anybody here being thrilled that the Sox drafted the next Chris Sale. At that point it was being debated whether he'd be better off as an outfielder than a raw pitcher. If he had flunked as an outfielder rather than a pitcher, would we no longer be subjected to your "You can't ever draft a pitcher that high" nonsense? Now I really wished the Sox had converted him to outfield off the bat. Then we could hear you tell us never draft an outfielder with a pick that high. You asked for a source. Ie proof he was comped there. I’m sorry you don’t like the source. I really wish you didn’t know you knew everything and only your thought process or opinion could be correct. He WAS comp to him. Black and white. I hated the pick too. But it’s not preposterous that I mention he was compared to him because guess what. He was. Right there. That’s only reason I showed this was to say hey he was. Don’t like it... take it up with them. I didn’t right it. I simply said he was! Every pick is compared to someone and someone will give justification or thoughts on the guy. ( draft is all about upside and many fail). Before you go attacking someone for thoughts and saying oh it’s preposterous maybe do your research or you get proven wrong. You want to draft player xyz great. I don’t like catcher or said pitcher hey ok. Who’s right? Shoot we will know 5 years from now. Want to prove to me he WASNT compared to Chris sale by anyone? You can’t. Thank you for allowing me to have my opinion. Cause I sure don’t say you don’t have a clue and that your opinion is preposterous. I might cringe and say gosh I hope not. You have same credentials in this business as I do. We are fans. And probably passionate ones. Who have followed prospects. And Red Sox for years!! Through ups and downs. State your opinion and I’ll state mine Now let’s talk news.... should be a fun few weeks We are all entitled to our opinions. No problem there. But this is akin to if we're debating a subject and I said, "Prospect X is comparable to Mike Trout" so down the road you insist that somebody (by citing me) comped Prospect X to Mike Trout when the prospect is really comped to Mike Trout by nobody with any real credentials. I mean the guy you're "sourcing" is no source at all. He's no more an expert than you or I are. If it was Jonathan Mayo or Jim Callis or some of the other guys mentioned I wouldn't blink at all, and I'd agree with you. But when Joe Blow is making crap up that he's no expert on, well excuse all of us, if we think the opinion is stupid and not representative of what the industry really thought at the time of the draft (and no, not even Keith Law got on his soapbox to pronounce Ball comparable to Sale). Nobody of consequence thought Chris Sale was a valid comp for Trey Ball. As it was Chris Sale was barely getting established himself. And as fans, I can't think of anybody who saw Trey Ball as a possibility who said, "Hey, we're drafting the next Chris Sale!". Instead the reaction here was, "Why not Meadows?! Damn I really hate that we missed out on Frazier. Should Ball be an outfielder or a pitcher? Man, he's raw. What a gamble with a seventh pick." That was the reaction. Not the "Chris Sale is a comp, so we should be excited." I guarantee you if Sale had been a legit comp as mentioned by draft experts a lot of us fans would have been a lot more excited about the pick. As it was a lot of us questioned it and it didn't ultimately work out. But that doesn't make us say, "Never draft a pitcher that high up....because Trey Ball failed." That's why you get a lot of push back even though you are entitled to your opinion, as repetitive as it can be at times.
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Post by jmanny24 on Jun 11, 2021 15:28:51 GMT -5
dyoungteach, the guy who wrote the article's most recent posts for Bleacher Report include articles about the NBA, NFL, Lamar Odom's boxing match, a Chinese diplomat, and WWE. Bleacher Report is a content farm, and was even moreso in 2013. Bleacher Report is a reliable source on literally nothing. You might as well cite Fansided. Not for nothing,but I work for Fansided. Not everything is sports talk radio clickbait. Some of us try to provide thought-provoking, opinionated content that people will enjoy reading.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 11, 2021 15:29:58 GMT -5
For all this not talking about Kumar at 4, I wouldn’t hate Kumar at 4.
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Post by kingstephanos on Jun 11, 2021 15:36:14 GMT -5
Eric Longenhagen Chat blogs.fangraphs.com/eric-longenhagen-chat-6-11-21/ 12:12 Mike: Any draft rumors for the top 5 picks (Red Sox rumors specifically would be appreciated)? 12:14 Eric A Longenhagen: We’ll have our first mock early next week. Think PIT’s desire to cut at 1 means we won’t know who they’re on until the mixes behind them really solidify. Think Watson has a chance to be in the mix at two in addition to the obvious names. Boston I think would just take Leiter if there. Teams have BAL wanting to cut, too, prob w/ prep bat. It’s super early still
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jimoh
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Posts: 4,123
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Post by jimoh on Jun 11, 2021 16:47:38 GMT -5
Just FYI and apropos of nothing: you can personally block a poster so that you don’t see his posts, but you have to be logged in for the block to work, and you will see the posts if someone else quotes him or her.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2021 16:50:53 GMT -5
dyoungteach, the guy who wrote the article's most recent posts for Bleacher Report include articles about the NBA, NFL, Lamar Odom's boxing match, a Chinese diplomat, and WWE. Bleacher Report is a content farm, and was even moreso in 2013. Bleacher Report is a reliable source on literally nothing. You might as well cite Fansided. Not for nothing,but I work for Fansided. Not everything is sports talk radio clickbait. Some of us try to provide thought-provoking, opinionated content that people will enjoy reading. OK, foot-in-mouth moment there. Didn't mean for that to be the implication, but rather that the content isn't necessarily provided by an expert and must be evaluated for what it is. Didn't mean to talk down to it regarding the quality.
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Post by orion09 on Jun 11, 2021 17:03:49 GMT -5
For all this not talking about Kumar at 4, I wouldn’t hate Kumar at 4. My concern with Rocker is that the fastball command is spotty, leading to an over-reliance on the slider as an out pitch. That makes me think reliever risk. So it was encouraging to see him mix in some high fastballs swinging and knee-high fastballs looking. Also just noticing that he has two breaking balls by velocity band, a more vertical one at 79-80 and a tighter, slider/cutter-like one at 85-87.
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Post by lennsakata on Jun 11, 2021 17:26:12 GMT -5
Just curious did anybody actually see Kumar pitch today? For as much grief as I give the guy he had a great line but I couldn’t watch the game. I watched a couple of the late innings. Lots of sliders, despite being labeled a two pitch guy, the way he changes the depth and speed on the slider almost makes it two pitches. Fastball was as low as 92, saw some 95s as well and this was 6th/7th/8th innings. He was throwing 3-4 sliders in a row at a couple different points. Gavin Williams was really impressive as well. Threw his breaking pitches in 3-1, 3-2 counts and it was pretty filthy. Competitive presence on the mound. His fastball was 95-96 late but it seemed a little straight without too much life…worked well today as he commanded it but could see guys squaring it up at the next level despite the velocity
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cdj
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Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Jun 11, 2021 17:37:20 GMT -5
I saw a couple of innings from Rocker and I was pleasantly surprised by a change he threw a lefty. Don’t know how many he threw or the quality of them but the one I saw was a 50 imo. Decent separation from the fastball with a little fade. It was 85 mph iirc
He was generally between 92/93-96 mph when I watched
I like him more than Williams but I wouldn’t cry if they got either of them into the system. Both look like good starting pitching prospects to me
Leiter is my preference if they go pitcher though
Honestly Rocker strikes me as a mid-rotation workhorse, I could see him stringing together 200 inning seasons of above average pitching. I don’t know if I see him being an elite guy but he should have a long career provided the arm stays healthy.
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Post by tyler3 on Jun 11, 2021 17:51:13 GMT -5
The issue for me with Jack and Kumar is each one has one elite pitch. Jack has the fastball but he’s 6’ 1” (maybe) and his secondaries were just today described by fangraphs, Prospectslive(last week) and perfect games USA as average and how’s he gonna get left handed hitters out? Kumar has the slider but his fastball command and velocity fluctuates….. it’s not like max mayer who at the time of the draft had a plus plus fastball and slider and went third overall. So if you pick either guy fourth, you have to have the confidence of a) improving either his fastball and/secondary AND developing a change or something comparable… I’m not above taking a college pitcher at 4 but that’s still seems like a lot of projection/ hoping for good health involved. Neither is a command junky either. That’s why to me… I’d love a HS SS or Davis at 4.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jun 11, 2021 18:26:31 GMT -5
Is that his way of saying Leiter is their top choice?
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Post by tyler3 on Jun 11, 2021 18:34:41 GMT -5
Seems like they take Leiter if he’s there. I also asked him in the same chat if he thought Henry Davis was a top 4 draft prospect and his answer was “Hell yes”
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Post by tyler3 on Jun 11, 2021 18:36:58 GMT -5
If Eric and Keith are enamored with Davis then that makes me think. Fangraphs comes out with their first mock and updated board next week! My guess is vermontsox will beat me to it by about 2 minutes:)
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jun 11, 2021 19:08:35 GMT -5
Question: How does Davis as a prospect going into the draft compare to how highly Adley Rutschman was considered going into the 2019 draft?
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cdj
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Posts: 15,659
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Post by cdj on Jun 11, 2021 19:18:17 GMT -5
Question: How does Davis as a prospect going into the draft compare to how highly Adley Rutschman was considered going into the 2019 draft? Not as highly regarded from what I’ve seen
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 11, 2021 19:48:31 GMT -5
Question: How does Davis as a prospect going into the draft compare to how highly Adley Rutschman was considered going into the 2019 draft? Adley was immediately a top 10 prospect. Nobody from this draft will rank that highly upon being drafted.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jun 11, 2021 20:41:44 GMT -5
Question: How does Davis as a prospect going into the draft compare to how highly Adley Rutschman was considered going into the 2019 draft? Adley Rutschman hit .408/.505/.628 as sophomore and was pretty much locked in as the #1 in his class then proceded to IMPROVE his numbers as a junior hitting .411/.575/.751 so he was basically coast to coast number one. Davis has moved steadily up the ranking pretty much having the best season of draft elegible hitters but Rutschman is on another level.
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Post by wOBA Fett on Jun 11, 2021 20:43:16 GMT -5
Question: How does Davis as a prospect going into the draft compare to how highly Adley Rutschman was considered going into the 2019 draft? Adley was immediately a top 10 prospect. Nobody from this draft will rank that highly upon being drafted. Jack Leiter will be the highest ranked prospect immediately after the draft
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 11, 2021 21:30:16 GMT -5
By top 10, he means top 10 in all of baseball.
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Post by dyoungteach on Jun 11, 2021 22:08:31 GMT -5
You asked for a source. Ie proof he was comped there. I’m sorry you don’t like the source. I really wish you didn’t know you knew everything and only your thought process or opinion could be correct. He WAS comp to him. Black and white. I hated the pick too. But it’s not preposterous that I mention he was compared to him because guess what. He was. Right there. That’s only reason I showed this was to say hey he was. Don’t like it... take it up with them. I didn’t right it. I simply said he was! Every pick is compared to someone and someone will give justification or thoughts on the guy. ( draft is all about upside and many fail). Before you go attacking someone for thoughts and saying oh it’s preposterous maybe do your research or you get proven wrong. You want to draft player xyz great. I don’t like catcher or said pitcher hey ok. Who’s right? Shoot we will know 5 years from now. Want to prove to me he WASNT compared to Chris sale by anyone? You can’t. Thank you for allowing me to have my opinion. Cause I sure don’t say you don’t have a clue and that your opinion is preposterous. I might cringe and say gosh I hope not. You have same credentials in this business as I do. We are fans. And probably passionate ones. Who have followed prospects. And Red Sox for years!! Through ups and downs. State your opinion and I’ll state mine Now let’s talk news.... should be a fun few weeks We are all entitled to our opinions. No problem there. But this is akin to if we're debating a subject and I said, "Prospect X is comparable to Mike Trout" so down the road you insist that somebody (by citing me) comped Prospect X to Mike Trout when the prospect is really comped to Mike Trout by nobody with any real credentials. I mean the guy you're "sourcing" is no source at all. He's no more an expert than you or I are. If it was Jonathan Mayo or Jim Callis or some of the other guys mentioned I wouldn't blink at all, and I'd agree with you. But when Joe Blow is making crap up that he's no expert on, well excuse all of us, if we think the opinion is stupid and not representative of what the industry really thought at the time of the draft (and no, not even Keith Law got on his soapbox to pronounce Ball comparable to Sale). Nobody of consequence thought Chris Sale was a valid comp for Trey Ball. As it was Chris Sale was barely getting established himself. And as fans, I can't think of anybody who saw Trey Ball as a possibility who said, "Hey, we're drafting the next Chris Sale!". Instead the reaction here was, "Why not Meadows?! Damn I really hate that we missed out on Frazier. Should Ball be an outfielder or a pitcher? Man, he's raw. What a gamble with a seventh pick." That was the reaction. Not the "Chris Sale is a comp, so we should be excited." I guarantee you if Sale had been a legit comp as mentioned by draft experts a lot of us fans would have been a lot more excited about the pick. As it was a lot of us questioned it and it didn't ultimately work out. But that doesn't make us say, "Never draft a pitcher that high up....because Trey Ball failed." That's why you get a lot of push back even though you are entitled to your opinion, as repetitive as it can be at times. Dude I’m not the one keeping the conversation going. I said drop it. A source is a source. Nature of our time to denigh things when they are right there but in articles around the draft at that time he was compared to a pretty good pitcher. If you think he was compared elsewhere find a source that states that before? Because the only source shown so far is one making the comparison it did. That’s not opinion. That’s FACT! All you’ve blubbered is opinions with zero facts to back them up. I get it. Again sign of the times for some. But I simply stated a fact. Sorry you don’t like that fact. Regardless of where it came from. A fact. If you want to have more “discussion” fee free to message me to keep it out of here. But have some FACTS to back up your opinions or when upset about my facts I stated.
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Post by jmei on Jun 11, 2021 22:15:22 GMT -5
For the third time now, let’s move on from the Trey Ball/Chris Sale topic. Will start deleting posts (or worse) from now on. Thanks.
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Post by chr31ter on Jun 11, 2021 23:47:59 GMT -5
The thing for me about Rocker is that he's just so inconsistent.
Does it surprise me that he was dominant today? No.
Would it surprise me if in his next start, a 170-pound 2nd baseman hitting out of the eighth spot turns on a 91 mph fastball and puts it 13 rows up in right field seats? Also no.
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Post by nuttyredsox on Jun 12, 2021 0:06:35 GMT -5
Regarding the draft is a craps shot, but I believe the Chaim Bloom and is team, not only have a plan but they know what they are looking for, something that most of us are just guessing. This will not be a key pick going forward, the overall draft and the development of the new talent is the key, something that's been our biggest problem. We haven't developed pitchers and it's costing us a lot. Hopefully we build, again a strong farm system and we can maintain our winning tradition.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jun 12, 2021 9:15:05 GMT -5
Regarding the draft is a craps shot, but I believe the Chaim Bloom and is team, not only have a plan but they know what they are looking for, something that most of us are just guessing. This will not be a key pick going forward, the overall draft and the development of the new talent is the key, something that's been our biggest problem. We haven't developed pitchers and it's costing us a lot. Hopefully we build, again a strong farm system and we can maintain our winning tradition. The #4 pick will absolutely be a key pick. It will 1000% be a key pick
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Post by voiceofreason on Jun 12, 2021 9:57:16 GMT -5
LOL.... I remember when Bleacher Report first starting showing up and advertising for contributors, they just wanted something/anything to get clicks. Pretty sure I could be writing for them as an expert on all Boston sports and that is laughable even if I have spent 50 years glued to all things related to Boston sports.
Anyways, although I have been on the Davis bandwagon I have to say I will be excited for whomever they grab as it will be someone who could be a franchise player. Rocker and Leiter look like "possible" future aces that have been hyped since day 1, it didn't seem like either would drop to the Sox a few months back and now they will certainly have a shot at one of them. I am sure that 5 years down the road their will be someone who shines pretty bright that we will look back on and say "what if", maybe the Sox are the ones who get that guy but either way they should get a difference maker and that is all that matters.
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