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7/27-7/30 Red Sox vs. Mets Series Thread
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Post by incandenza on Jul 30, 2020 12:55:06 GMT -5
Well it was incredibly sad. But a starting position player as the headliner was at least a reasonable return. A starting pitcher would have been a reasonable return (and Graterol would have been a reasonable return if he could have been a starter). But if the headliner was someone we knew in advance would have been a bullpen arm? There would have been rioting in the streets of Soxprospects forum. Thus far a platoon player in return. Are you actually trying to argue Graterol would have been just as good as Verdugo, knowing that he'd be a reliever? Or are you just sort of luxuriating in your sadness about trading Mookie? If it's the former I think that's nuts. If it's the latter then knock yourself out I guess.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 30, 2020 13:14:55 GMT -5
Well it was incredibly sad. But a starting position player as the headliner was at least a reasonable return. A starting pitcher would have been a reasonable return (and Graterol would have been a reasonable return if he could have been a starter). But if the headliner was someone we knew in advance would have been a bullpen arm? There would have been rioting in the streets of Soxprospects forum. Thus far a platoon player in return. You won't find a single scout who doesn't think he'll be a starter. He's young coming off of an injury, with a crazy short training camp. Hate the Betts trade all you want, just don't take it out on our players!
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Post by manfred on Jul 30, 2020 13:18:08 GMT -5
Thus far a platoon player in return. Are you actually trying to argue Graterol would have been just as good as Verdugo, knowing that he'd be a reliever? Or are you just sort of luxuriating in your sadness about trading Mookie? If it's the former I think that's nuts. If it's the latter then knock yourself out I guess. Third option: if we have to trade Betts, I’d want a better return. Or... don’t trade your best homegrown player since Jim Rice.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Jul 30, 2020 13:44:31 GMT -5
Half serious question, are people forgetting we also got Jeter Downs in the trade? He’s the number two prospect in the system. The return for what has turned out to be 60 games of Mookie is fantastic.
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Post by manfred on Jul 30, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -5
Half serious question, are people forgetting we also got Jeter Downs in the trade? He’s the number two prospect in the system. The return for what has turned out to be 60 games of Mookie is fantastic. Nope. Have not forgotten.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Jul 30, 2020 14:00:01 GMT -5
Are you actually trying to argue Graterol would have been just as good as Verdugo, knowing that he'd be a reliever? Or are you just sort of luxuriating in your sadness about trading Mookie? If it's the former I think that's nuts. If it's the latter then knock yourself out I guess. Third option: if we have to trade Betts, I’d want a better return. Or... don’t trade your best homegrown player since Jim Rice. Best homegrown player since Jim Rice? Boggs, Clemens, and Betts were all clearly better than Rice. Pedroia and Nomar arguably were too, if you're inclined to give them a pass for their injuries. None of this really changes the Mookie trade, obviously, but what a bizarre place to draw the line. If you're still throwing a temper tantrum six months after the trade, you might as well go all the way and say they traded their best player since Ted Williams.
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Post by ajs1994 on Jul 30, 2020 14:08:56 GMT -5
I assume with a lefty starting tonight, Pillar gets a start in. I wonder how long he can maintain a 100% contact rate.
JBJ has been going to the opposite field a lot, and the results have been good. Very interested to see how it goes going forward. He seems to be so consciously trying to go the other way it's leading to some soft grounders (66% groundball rate), and seems susceptible to being challenged inside. It kind of reminds me of Xander in 2015, when he adjusted to go the other way more but it cost some of his ability to pull the ball with authority. If JBJ can hit like Xander did in 2015, I don't think anyone will complain.
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Post by manfred on Jul 30, 2020 14:13:47 GMT -5
Third option: if we have to trade Betts, I’d want a better return. Or... don’t trade your best homegrown player since Jim Rice. Best homegrown player since Jim Rice? Boggs, Clemens, and Betts were all clearly better than Rice. Pedroia and Nomar arguably were too, if you're inclined to give them a pass for their injuries. None of this really changes the Mookie trade, obviously, but what a bizarre place to draw the line. If you're still throwing a temper tantrum six months after the trade, you might as well go all the way and say they traded their best player since Ted Williams. Clemens not a player. He was a pitcher. No way Boggs was better. And maybe Betts is better. All the more painful. No way Pedey better. Nomar had short greatness. Mo Vaughn had great years, too. But sort of irrelevant. The point is, one of a handful of guys historically. Oh, and I am grumbling because a) the subject got raised by another poster; and b) the Sox suck and appear to be in a few year of suck mode, so it makes losing a great player and not getting as much as one would hope in return that much more painful.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 30, 2020 14:18:39 GMT -5
If you were a huge Jim Rice guy wouldn't that make you hate the Betts contract? That's a perfect example of why you don't sign Betts. His best years were his mid twenties and he was worth zero bwar after age 33. Betts has six years left at that point.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 30, 2020 14:25:53 GMT -5
Best homegrown player since Jim Rice? Boggs, Clemens, and Betts were all clearly better than Rice. Pedroia and Nomar arguably were too, if you're inclined to give them a pass for their injuries. None of this really changes the Mookie trade, obviously, but what a bizarre place to draw the line. If you're still throwing a temper tantrum six months after the trade, you might as well go all the way and say they traded their best player since Ted Williams. Clemens not a player. He was a pitcher. No way Boggs was better. And maybe Betts is better. All the more painful. No way Pedey better. Nomar had short greatness. Mo Vaughn had great years, too. But sort of irrelevant. The point is, one of a handful of guys historically. Boggs was definitely way better than Rice. Better in his prime. Better across his whole career. Better by any reasonable measure.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jul 30, 2020 14:31:22 GMT -5
I think Pedey and Nomar were clearly better players that just had injuries that cut their careers short. No offense to Betts, yet no player I enjoyed watching more than Nomar.
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Post by kjkramer on Jul 30, 2020 14:31:39 GMT -5
After reading this thread..... I am fairly convinced I am maybe the ONLY person on the site that is glad we traded Mookie? Look.... I LOVE the players that WANT to be here and it shows.... guys like X and Moreland and Eovaldi and Pedroia. You can clearly tell what guys love to be here and it shows and they often say it. Mookie never appeared to me to be a guy that preferred to stay here. I took his comments about how much he loves to be in LA and everything about there as a jab... he lost a LOT of likability for me and I personally follow him daily to root against him. I want him to be average at best.... and that leads me to the 2nd reason I want him gone.. .. I see his best seasons already have been played.... I see him as "good player" going forward but never "great again". I see him as worth more of 8/150 at most. Besides... even if he was great, NO PLAYER should get that kind of money... it NEVER works out well. Cano, Miggy, Davis, Fielder, Howard, Ellsbury, Harper, Pujols, Machado, etc.... Only the first Arod contract and probably the Trout contract will be good. Most are abysmal and destroy a team and even if they end up being a good contract, they severely handicap a team trying to fill out the rest if the roster. I would never ever offer a big contract as an owner. Bue Bye Betts.... I am sick of hearing about him. If HE wanted to be here he would be here for insane money that 5 generations could not spend.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 30, 2020 14:47:46 GMT -5
Best homegrown player since Jim Rice? Boggs, Clemens, and Betts were all clearly better than Rice. Pedroia and Nomar arguably were too, if you're inclined to give them a pass for their injuries. None of this really changes the Mookie trade, obviously, but what a bizarre place to draw the line. If you're still throwing a temper tantrum six months after the trade, you might as well go all the way and say they traded their best player since Ted Williams. Clemens not a player. He was a pitcher. No way Boggs was better. And maybe Betts is better. All the more painful. No way Pedey better. Nomar had short greatness. Mo Vaughn had great years, too. But sort of irrelevant. The point is, one of a handful of guys historically. Oh, and I am grumbling because a) the subject got raised by another poster; and b) the Sox suck and appear to be in a few year of suck mode, so it makes losing a great player and not getting as much as one would hope in return that much more painful. Well I think that, being in the unenviable, weakened, public position of not being able to sign Betts, we did pretty damn well. And we will hopefully have money to spend on additions next year that we would not have otherwise. We made IMO the best that we reasonably could. We got 3 players who will likely contribute and the largess to add others. We also aren't potentially hamstrung by a 12 year albatross contract. Well done Mr. Bloom.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 30, 2020 15:10:34 GMT -5
Good thing the Red Sox won their game in which their one functional pitcher started. Good to see what Vazquez is doing is showing that last year wasn't a fluke. Workman sooner or later will lose that lucky horseshoe he has. Thought it would have been last night. I was kind of hoping that the Sox would have included Workman (and maybe somebody else) in the Betts/Price deal in order to have kept Brusdar Graterol (and still be able to get Downs), who is exactly the kind of arm the Sox could have used. I know Bloom was looking for an impact starter, but closer will soon be an issue and Graterol could have solved that issue for a number of years. Getting a reliever as the main piece in a Betts trade would have been so incredibly sad. Um, no. That's not what my post was saying at all. I was saying that I was hoping that if the Sox were going to do the Betts/Price deal that they'd expand it to include Workman (and perhaps somebody else) as a way to keep Graterol included in the deal in addition to Verdugo, Downs, and Wong. That wouldn't make Graterol the main piece at all, more like a tertiary piece, but still a building block nonetheless. I mean, this is a deal the Twins will regret for a long time. Maeda is an ok pitcher, but he's older and just a guy. Graterol will be anchoring the Dodgers bullpen for awhile to come as I suspect that Jansen is nearing the end of his run as an effective closer.
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Post by incandenza on Jul 30, 2020 15:21:58 GMT -5
Getting a reliever as the main piece in a Betts trade would have been so incredibly sad. Um, no. That's not what my post was saying at all. I was saying that I was hoping that if the Sox were going to do the Betts/Price deal that they'd expand it to include Workman (and perhaps somebody else) as a way to keep Graterol included in the deal in addition to Verdugo, Downs, and Wong. That wouldn't make Graterol the main piece at all, more like a tertiary piece, but still a building block nonetheless. I mean, this is a deal the Twins will regret for a long time. Maeda is an ok pitcher, but he's older and just a guy. Graterol will be anchoring the Dodgers bullpen for awhile to come as I suspect that Jansen is nearing the end of his run as an effective closer. Ah, okay. Gotcha.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Jul 30, 2020 16:21:25 GMT -5
Best homegrown player since Jim Rice? Boggs, Clemens, and Betts were all clearly better than Rice. Pedroia and Nomar arguably were too, if you're inclined to give them a pass for their injuries. None of this really changes the Mookie trade, obviously, but what a bizarre place to draw the line. If you're still throwing a temper tantrum six months after the trade, you might as well go all the way and say they traded their best player since Ted Williams. Clemens not a player. He was a pitcher. No way Boggs was better. And maybe Betts is better. All the more painful. No way Pedey better. Nomar had short greatness. Mo Vaughn had great years, too. But sort of irrelevant. The point is, one of a handful of guys historically. Oh, and I am grumbling because a) the subject got raised by another poster; and b) the Sox suck and appear to be in a few year of suck mode, so it makes losing a great player and not getting as much as one would hope in return that much more painful. .......what.......?
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jul 30, 2020 18:11:46 GMT -5
Where is the game?
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Post by jkfer98 on Jul 30, 2020 18:14:22 GMT -5
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jul 30, 2020 18:15:36 GMT -5
Thanks
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jul 30, 2020 18:20:26 GMT -5
Boggs vs. Rice is a mismatch of epic proportions. Boggs put up 91.4 B-Ref WAR. Rice had 47.7. Checkmate.
They were nearly identical in career OPS-plus - Boggs at 129, Rice at 128. So anyone who says Rice was better has to make the case that he was a better LF than Boggs was a 3B. I'm dying to hear the statistacal or eye-test rationale for that argument.
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Post by Addam603 on Jul 30, 2020 18:20:47 GMT -5
I’m streaming the game through the MLB At Bat app and the broadcasting is ABYSMAL.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 30, 2020 18:20:59 GMT -5
I think Pedey and Nomar were clearly better players that just had injuries that cut their careers short. No offense to Betts, yet no player I enjoyed watching more than Nomar. And by all rights should have been a Sox all of his career. Yet another player ridden hard for not being perfect in the eyes of both the Sox fans and the ever so perfect media that resides there, especially the Globe as remember, which always found something wrong with the way he played his game and his personal life.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Jul 30, 2020 18:25:47 GMT -5
Cy Perez? There ya go Martin! Give us more of that. Lots more. A little infield dribbler for a hit doesn’t hurt a bit. Nice inning.
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Post by kevfc89 on Jul 30, 2020 18:29:55 GMT -5
Vazquez yet again
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Post by jkfer98 on Jul 30, 2020 18:30:00 GMT -5
Very happy to have the best catcher in the AL East!
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