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8/10-8/13 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 19:02:03 GMT -5
I wish this team could be compared to 2012, but... yikes. The one dream comparison is we can pull a trade akin to Gonzalez and Beckett with our current veterans and get a restart. But we don’t have a comparable package, except JDM+. That makes no sense. Where's our Carl Crawford ? That type trade is exactly what we don't need.
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Post by juanfatj on Aug 13, 2020 19:02:20 GMT -5
Lin can catch as well, he really can do it all.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 19:05:54 GMT -5
I wish this team could be compared to 2012, but... yikes. The one dream comparison is we can pull a trade akin to Gonzalez and Beckett with our current veterans and get a restart. But we don’t have a comparable package, except JDM+. That makes no sense. Where's our Carl Crawford ? That type trade is exactly what we don't need. Well... this team stinks worse than that team. And there is no clear way forward... or, in the case of Crawford, not even an obvious albatross. So we are not like that team... as I wrote. But I do dream (just a dream) of a big trade that turns the ship quickly. I don’t think that is complicated.
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Post by cheers on Aug 13, 2020 19:09:21 GMT -5
Hey all - I'm not in a spot where I can watch or stream. What happened to Peraza? Judging by the tone of the comments, guessing it may be grizzly. Hope not.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 19:10:34 GMT -5
Hey all - I'm not in a spot where I can watch or stream. What happened to Peraza? Judging by the tone of the comments, guessing it may be grizzly. Hope not. Took a liner off his knee. He looked ok in the dugout. He’ll be very sore for a while.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 19:11:54 GMT -5
At this point, the position play was just for fun. Might as well let the Sox get something out of it. Two catchers in the game and neither is catching. First time ever ?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 13, 2020 19:16:03 GMT -5
As big of a dumpster fire as the Sox are this year at least they're not as infuriating to watch as say the 2012 Sox or last years Celtics.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 19:16:05 GMT -5
Don’t look now, but Chavis is hitting .300.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 19:19:00 GMT -5
Pirates are up in the 9th. We could gain a game on worst record!
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Post by soxjim on Aug 13, 2020 19:19:57 GMT -5
That makes no sense. Where's our Carl Crawford ? That type trade is exactly what we don't need. Well... this team stinks worse than that team. And there is no clear way forward... or, in the case of Crawford, not even an obvious albatross. So we are not like that team... as I wrote. But I do dream (just a dream) of a big trade that turns the ship quickly. I don’t think that is complicated. Trading Devers for prospects. Then trading Vaz or packaging him for prospects. During these two moves you get a catcher to replace Vaz. Additionally, the Sox are going to stink in 2020 so they'll get a top draft pick. These are the building blocks for the future.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 19:27:52 GMT -5
Well... this team stinks worse than that team. And there is no clear way forward... or, in the case of Crawford, not even an obvious albatross. So we are not like that team... as I wrote. But I do dream (just a dream) of a big trade that turns the ship quickly. I don’t think that is complicated. Trading Devers for prospects. Then trading Vaz or packaging him for prospects. During these two moves you get a catcher to replace Vaz. Additionally, the Sox are going to stink in 2020 so they'll get a top draft pick. These are the building blocks for the future. I am for just about anything, but I’d not trade Devers unless I was blown away. Nor Xander. Otherwise... let the yard sale commence.
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Post by juanfatj on Aug 13, 2020 19:29:02 GMT -5
I don't think anyone(X is the exception) should be off the table, for the right price. There is a huge lack of talent. Devers lack of commitment in the off season to get in shape has really soured me. He was my favorite player last season. Eat salary for next season to get better prospects in deals, and hope to land a top draft choice. I really don't see a quick fix for this team. It's depressing.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 19:29:10 GMT -5
For Vaz it would have to be a huge return (which is what the Sox need) and we still have Lucroy. Maybe a 3 teamer involving the Indians.
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Post by cba82 on Aug 13, 2020 19:47:46 GMT -5
I'm not buying the Rays hype. Sox take three of four this week. Sigh.
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Post by wildsox on Aug 13, 2020 20:01:57 GMT -5
Trading Devers for prospects. Then trading Vaz or packaging him for prospects. During these two moves you get a catcher to replace Vaz. Additionally, the Sox are going to stink in 2020 so they'll get a top draft pick. These are the building blocks for the future. I am for just about anything, but I’d not trade Devers unless I was blown away. Nor Xander. Otherwise... let the yard sale commence. I definitely don’t think we need to move Devers. He’s only 23 so not much older than most prospects anyway and he’s proven.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 13, 2020 20:12:27 GMT -5
When does the pool start for this year's number of wins?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 20:16:50 GMT -5
When does the pool start for this year's number of wins? Is 6 taken ?
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 13, 2020 20:21:49 GMT -5
Lin can catch as well, he really can do it all. 9 years in minors, Lin never Caught or Pitched an inning. Why not? Now he's our Emergency guy. Plawecki, Peraza: both pitched twice in '19. Neither pitched once in the minors.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 20:31:31 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind. The Sox are in a position to eat 2020 money for players like JBJ without going over the tax threshold. Given the financial situations of almost every team in baseball, that could be a huge advantage. It's playing the haves and havenots card.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 13, 2020 20:35:56 GMT -5
When does the pool start for this year's number of wins? Is 6 taken ? Damn you! You took my number!
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Post by soxjim on Aug 13, 2020 20:46:50 GMT -5
For Vaz it would have to be a huge return (which is what the Sox need) and we still have Lucroy. Maybe a 3 teamer involving the Indians. If the Sox wait for a huge return for Vaz then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If Sox don't get at least of Sale or ERod back to being very good next year while needing Eovaldi to remain healthy then it's going probably to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a huge return for JDM then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a good return for JBJ then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. There are no possible huge returns coming other than Devers. And the chance of trading him is probably near-nil (though I would aggressively shop it). We're just going to have to hope for our big 3 starters to come back like a force next year in Sale, Eovaldi, and ERod. And hope Bloom can follow it up with some astute moves.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 13, 2020 20:54:52 GMT -5
For Vaz it would have to be a huge return (which is what the Sox need) and we still have Lucroy. Maybe a 3 teamer involving the Indians. If the Sox wait for a huge return for Vaz then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If Sox don't get at least of Sale or ERod back to being very good next year while needing Eovaldi to remain healthy then it's going probably to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a huge return for JDM then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a good return for JBJ then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. There are no possible huge returns coming other than Devers. And the chance of trading him is probably near-nil (though I would aggressively shop it). We're just going to have to hope for our big 3 starters to come back like a force next year in Sale, Eovaldi, and ERod. And hope Bloom can follow it up with some astute moves. Quality catchers on team friendly contracts are maybe the rarest commodity in baseball. Even rarer if the Sox eat his 2020 wages. I think Clevinger and Plesac are doable and that would change the entire future picture. Since both are likely to spend a lot of time on the restricted list to keep everyone happy, teams in that hunt will be limited to teams that have no aspirations for this year. It's pretty clear Cleveland will have to do something. It won't be a giveaway but it will be a serious discount.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 13, 2020 21:39:07 GMT -5
Considering how you reject every argument about how the team can be good in 2021, I'd actually like to hear your plan for how they can be good in 2022 or 2023. The problem, it seems to me, is that they aren't set up to be any better in those years than in 2021. It's not like they have any stars in the waiting in the high minors. And then guys like Sale and E. Rodriguez will only be getting older, and in fact Xander is likely to be a free agent after opting out post-2022. Given your position that every big-dollar free agent signing is likely to end up like the Panda/Hanley fiasco, I assume you won't want to re-sign Xander. So how does the team get better in '22/'23? Good question. Obviously, if it were easy, teams would all be better. But let me take a few quick shots. A couple internal matters: a) a lot depends on Casas and maybe Downs. If those guys pan out, you have a much improved right side in a couple years. So let’s call that our 2022 right side. b) At the same time, I’ll not assume Mata or Groome is starting. They might be, but I don’t want to leap. c) I will assume SOMEONE of the Houck, Ward etc. group makes at least a good Hembree-ish reliever, though the great hope is a closer from our own system. I would (assuming there is a real market this year): a) trade JDM, Workman, Barnes, and for a premium only CVaz. I’d be willing to include Chavis, Dalbec, Benny and a number of other guys I haven’t named above to get back arms of any kind and a power-hitting outfielder. b) I’d focus on extending Devers, ERod, and X. c) I’d look to the 2022 free agent pitching class, which is massive, if old. If the lineup is decent.... which requires Verdugo, Casas, and Downs to be respectable... I invest in a couple warhorses to go with ERod and Sale. If not, I see what the system might yield in younger arms (especially if my trades this year have produced a starter ready in 2 years). If the top 10 in our system doesn’t yield a couple decent parts in the next 2-3 years, everything is going to be exceedingly difficult. Oh, and hope they get a possible elite starter this year in the draft. And maybe next year, too. So the big difference between 2021 and 2022 - the reason to completely tank on the '21 season - is that you're counting on Casas and Downs in '22, and maybe Houck will be as good as Hembree? And you, of the every-free-agent-is-HanleyPanda conviction, want to jump into the FA pitching market in a year where the only under-35 options will be Kershaw (34), Kikuchi (31), Cobb (34), Carlos Martinez (30), and a few other randos - and no guarantee that any of them won't sign extensions before then? I just don't get that at all. If you are convinced that this team can't be good in 2021 then I truly can't see how they'd be good in 2022. I think you'd have to hold out for 3-4 years at least before we'd have enough turnover to make the team good. And if that's the case, you should definitely want to trade Bogaerts, and maybe Devers.
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Post by manfred on Aug 13, 2020 22:02:40 GMT -5
Good question. Obviously, if it were easy, teams would all be better. But let me take a few quick shots. A couple internal matters: a) a lot depends on Casas and maybe Downs. If those guys pan out, you have a much improved right side in a couple years. So let’s call that our 2022 right side. b) At the same time, I’ll not assume Mata or Groome is starting. They might be, but I don’t want to leap. c) I will assume SOMEONE of the Houck, Ward etc. group makes at least a good Hembree-ish reliever, though the great hope is a closer from our own system. I would (assuming there is a real market this year): a) trade JDM, Workman, Barnes, and for a premium only CVaz. I’d be willing to include Chavis, Dalbec, Benny and a number of other guys I haven’t named above to get back arms of any kind and a power-hitting outfielder. b) I’d focus on extending Devers, ERod, and X. c) I’d look to the 2022 free agent pitching class, which is massive, if old. If the lineup is decent.... which requires Verdugo, Casas, and Downs to be respectable... I invest in a couple warhorses to go with ERod and Sale. If not, I see what the system might yield in younger arms (especially if my trades this year have produced a starter ready in 2 years). If the top 10 in our system doesn’t yield a couple decent parts in the next 2-3 years, everything is going to be exceedingly difficult. Oh, and hope they get a possible elite starter this year in the draft. And maybe next year, too. So the big difference between 2021 and 2022 - the reason to completely tank on the '21 season - is that you're counting on Casas and Downs in '22, and maybe Houck will be as good as Hembree? And you, of the every-free-agent-is-HanleyPanda conviction, want to jump into the FA pitching market in a year where the only under-35 options will be Kershaw (34), Kikuchi (31), Cobb (34), Carlos Martinez (30), and a few other randos - and no guarantee that any of them won't sign extensions before then? I just don't get that at all. If you are convinced that this team can't be good in 2021 then I truly can't see how they'd be good in 2022. I think you'd have to hold out for 3-4 years at least before we'd have enough turnover to make the team good. And if that's the case, you should definitely want to trade Bogaerts, and maybe Devers. Well, I admit I don’t have great answers for the dumpster fire. But do you think the team playing tonight can compete next year. But you are not really summarizing my position. You leave out a) what they’d get for dumping guys this season. b) a high draft pick this season c) potentially a high pick next year. As for the free agents, I’d be far happier getting Scherzer, Verlander, Greinke, or Lester than anything coming this off-season. Again, that is all risky. So maybe 2022/23 is a year or two too early. But if trades work, if they get a starter in the draft this year, and if they sign, say, Scherzer? Take even one small piece: Chris Sake will be on a short lwash next season, but the season after will, hopefully, be full strength. So, Sale, Scherzer, Erod, Eovaldi, and 5th? Could work.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 13, 2020 22:33:28 GMT -5
If the Sox wait for a huge return for Vaz then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If Sox don't get at least of Sale or ERod back to being very good next year while needing Eovaldi to remain healthy then it's going probably to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a huge return for JDM then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. If the Sox wait for a good return for JBJ then it's probably going to continue to remain ugly with little hope for the future. There are no possible huge returns coming other than Devers. And the chance of trading him is probably near-nil (though I would aggressively shop it). We're just going to have to hope for our big 3 starters to come back like a force next year in Sale, Eovaldi, and ERod. And hope Bloom can follow it up with some astute moves. Quality catchers on team friendly contracts are maybe the rarest commodity in baseball. Even rarer if the Sox eat his 2020 wages. I think Clevinger and Plesac are doable and that would change the entire future picture. Devers is a rare talent. And if you are in rebuild you have another option than a team friendly MLB catcher - possibly a better preference is a prospect catcher with a pretty good ceiling. There are only 41 more games left. If you trade Vaz - and next year you are still in rebuild you don't need at star at the catcher spot. Plus our tax will be reset. Who are you giving up for Clevinger and Plesac? And your intent is to win in 2021 or to rebuild?
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