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Let’s Go Shopping - 2020-21 FAs
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Post by benzinger on Mar 4, 2021 10:39:15 GMT -5
I’ve never seen so much love for a sub-league average player. We all know he was huge during the 2018 postseason run, but this site is ridiculous. He was a lousy hitter and maddening to watch. Maddening to watch if you close your eyes for half of each game. In the other half he was majestic.
But I actually enjoyed watching his at bats too, as frustrating as it could be at times. I realized recently that he sort of brainwormed me in the same way slot machines do for some people. I.e., slot machines pay out just often enough for you to stay hopeful for the next big payout coming just around the corner. Since I always knew it was just a matter of time until his next hot streak I was glued to those ABs, thinking "Maybe this is the one!"
And of course when he was actually on his hot streaks it was just pure joy.
No doubt his glove was outstanding. But he would hit for a couple weeks and then disappear for months after that. Sometimes it seemed like all he did was strike out. I’m thinking whatever they get out of CF this year will be an upgrade over JBJ. They’ll lose a bit with the glove, but will get much more offensive production. Happy to turn the page.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 4, 2021 10:41:43 GMT -5
Maddening to watch if you close your eyes for half of each game. In the other half he was majestic.
But I actually enjoyed watching his at bats too, as frustrating as it could be at times. I realized recently that he sort of brainwormed me in the same way slot machines do for some people. I.e., slot machines pay out just often enough for you to stay hopeful for the next big payout coming just around the corner. Since I always knew it was just a matter of time until his next hot streak I was glued to those ABs, thinking "Maybe this is the one!"
And of course when he was actually on his hot streaks it was just pure joy.
No doubt his glove was outstanding. But he would hit for a couple weeks and then disappear for months after that. Sometimes it seemed like all he did was strike out. I’m thinking whatever they get out of CF this year will be an upgrade over JBJ. They’ll lose a bit with the glove, but will get much more offensive production. Happy to turn the page. It's impressive that you're able to hold this opinion, and the opinion that Boras did not go a great job in getting this contract, in your head at the same time.
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Post by manfred on Mar 4, 2021 10:59:21 GMT -5
I’m happy for JBJ. He might have wanted more, but this is a good chunk of change. And I get that it is too rich for the Sox at this moment. Still a bummer.
I’m glad he didn’t sign with a team I root against, too.
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Post by benzinger on Mar 4, 2021 11:10:38 GMT -5
No doubt his glove was outstanding. But he would hit for a couple weeks and then disappear for months after that. Sometimes it seemed like all he did was strike out. I’m thinking whatever they get out of CF this year will be an upgrade over JBJ. They’ll lose a bit with the glove, but will get much more offensive production. Happy to turn the page. It's impressive that you're able to hold this opinion, and the opinion that Boras did not go a great job in getting this contract, in your head at the same time. Boras set the expectation that JBJ was going to get 4-5 years in the $15-16m/year range. He missed both marks by a wide margin. I’m guessing that he could have gotten 2/$24m back in December. Trying to wait out the market accomplished nothing.
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Post by manfred on Mar 4, 2021 11:25:17 GMT -5
It's impressive that you're able to hold this opinion, and the opinion that Boras did not go a great job in getting this contract, in your head at the same time. Boras set the expectation that JBJ was going to get 4-5 years in the $15-16m/year range. He missed both marks by a wide margin. I’m guessing that he could have gotten 2/$24m back in December. Trying to wait out the market accomplished nothing. We can’t possibly know that. Anyway, what difference does it make? He lost time buying stuff in Brewer colors?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 4, 2021 11:32:55 GMT -5
I'm a lot more annoyed at this point that Bloom didn't trade JBJ last summer than I am that JBJ is actually gone. Watching him get something for nothing in deals for Springs/Mazza and Osich, getting two legit prospects for a month of Mitch Moreland, and getting 5 players for Benintendi, and fleecing Philly in the Workman/Hembree trade, I can only imagine what Bloom could have gotten for JBJ. Bloom had to have known that JBJ wasn't coming back for peanuts and that they weren't going to have the money to sign him and fill as many needs as they had, I can only surmise that he held onto JBJ for reasons that might not have been baseball related - I'm speculating here because I don't think I'll ever find out the true answer to that. I can only imagine what caliber of prospects he could have secured with his penchant for grabbing young talent.
As you can tell, I'm not upset by JBJ leaving.
But don't get me wrong. JBJ is the best defensive CF I've seen on the Red Sox and for a couple of years Crisp was ridiculously great, but JBJ is the best.
That said, it was time to move on. He's on the wrong side of 30. I don't see his defense improving in the coming years, although he will eventually make a really good RF in a few years, but will he hit enough?
He hit well last year, but I get the sense that he hit a hot streak and the season ended before he could balance it out with one of his mega-cold streaks.
Except for 2016 when he really had a torrid streak (still can't believe he had a 29 game hitting streak), he always left you wanting for more offensively. I'm glad that he saved his best for the 2018 post-season.
So I'll always be a JBJ fan. And I will always applaud heartily for him when he returns to Fenway as an opponent or when they eventually put him in the Red Sox HOF and have reunions of the 2018 team.
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner.
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Post by greenmonster on Mar 4, 2021 12:32:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the Memories Boys!!....It was fun while it lasted.
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Post by tdenehy01 on Mar 4, 2021 12:54:33 GMT -5
I was a JBJ fan and always rooted for him, but i think we overrate him way too much. I see a lot of 2018 postseason talk....he still batted 200....had 3 huge hits ill give him that but he wasnt a monster or anything.
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Post by Jimmy on Mar 4, 2021 13:13:47 GMT -5
I sure would like to have JBJ back. I’ve never seen so much love for a sub-league average player. We all know he was huge during the 2018 postseason run, but this site is ridiculous. He was a lousy hitter and maddening to watch. This is an absurd take - JBJ is certainly better than a “sub league average” player. Far from it.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Mar 4, 2021 13:19:19 GMT -5
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Mar 4, 2021 13:21:53 GMT -5
I'm a lot more annoyed at this point that Bloom didn't trade JBJ last summer than I am that JBJ is actually gone. Watching him get something for nothing in deals for Springs/Mazza and Osich, getting two legit prospects for a month of Mitch Moreland, and getting 5 players for Benintendi, and fleecing Philly in the Workman/Hembree trade, I can only imagine what Bloom could have gotten for JBJ. Bloom had to have known that JBJ wasn't coming back for peanuts and that they weren't going to have the money to sign him and fill as many needs as they had, I can only surmise that he held onto JBJ for reasons that might not have been baseball related - I'm speculating here because I don't think I'll ever find out the true answer to that. I can only imagine what caliber of prospects he could have secured with his penchant for grabbing young talent. As you can tell, I'm not upset by JBJ leaving. But don't get me wrong. JBJ is the best defensive CF I've seen on the Red Sox and for a couple of years Crisp was ridiculously great, but JBJ is the best. That said, it was time to move on. He's on the wrong side of 30. I don't see his defense improving in the coming years, although he will eventually make a really good RF in a few years, but will he hit enough? He hit well last year, but I get the sense that he hit a hot streak and the season ended before he could balance it out with one of his mega-cold streaks. Except for 2016 when he really had a torrid streak (still can't believe he had a 29 game hitting streak), he always left you wanting for more offensively. I'm glad that he saved his best for the 2018 post-season. So I'll always be a JBJ fan. And I will always applaud heartily for him when he returns to Fenway as an opponent or when they eventually put him in the Red Sox HOF and have reunions of the 2018 team. That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. Best defensive CF since early Lynn and better than Rick Miller, who was probably the next best before Crisp came along and he could throw some. Only reason to think of why they didn't move him was some kind of signals from Bradley that he wanted to return, but being a Boras guy, I always say trade them regardless if they do not flat out come out and instruct him to do something regarding a contract extension. There is no such thing as goodwill/brownie points with Boras, only cold cash counts and imagine even an overpaid Bradley last season (11m over 162G schedule) was worth a fair prospect or 2. What could have happened is Bloom was another GM who fell under the spell of bradley being much better than he actually is and thinking all along he'd try to resign him this offseason, if at all possible and the price not too high.. Trading him away could make it more difficult. Kind of funny they hung onto him until time to walk, yet moved Betts and Benny isn't it? Kept the lowest upside, yet 2 guys who either could/can hit they cut ties with and both younger?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 4, 2021 13:26:33 GMT -5
Nobody is holding you hostage, friend.
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Post by incandenza on Mar 4, 2021 13:33:29 GMT -5
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it. Yeah. I guess the thing you could say is that Duran has a higher ceiling than JBJ, simplly because JBJ is 30 years old; he is what he is. And who knows what Duran will be? But we will be extremely fortunate if he ends up providing as much value to the organization as JBJ did.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Mar 4, 2021 13:40:03 GMT -5
I'm a lot more annoyed at this point that Bloom didn't trade JBJ last summer than I am that JBJ is actually gone. Watching him get something for nothing in deals for Springs/Mazza and Osich, getting two legit prospects for a month of Mitch Moreland, and getting 5 players for Benintendi, and fleecing Philly in the Workman/Hembree trade, I can only imagine what Bloom could have gotten for JBJ. Bloom had to have known that JBJ wasn't coming back for peanuts and that they weren't going to have the money to sign him and fill as many needs as they had, I can only surmise that he held onto JBJ for reasons that might not have been baseball related - I'm speculating here because I don't think I'll ever find out the true answer to that. I can only imagine what caliber of prospects he could have secured with his penchant for grabbing young talent. As you can tell, I'm not upset by JBJ leaving. But don't get me wrong. JBJ is the best defensive CF I've seen on the Red Sox and for a couple of years Crisp was ridiculously great, but JBJ is the best. That said, it was time to move on. He's on the wrong side of 30. I don't see his defense improving in the coming years, although he will eventually make a really good RF in a few years, but will he hit enough? He hit well last year, but I get the sense that he hit a hot streak and the season ended before he could balance it out with one of his mega-cold streaks. Except for 2016 when he really had a torrid streak (still can't believe he had a 29 game hitting streak), he always left you wanting for more offensively. I'm glad that he saved his best for the 2018 post-season. So I'll always be a JBJ fan. And I will always applaud heartily for him when he returns to Fenway as an opponent or when they eventually put him in the Red Sox HOF and have reunions of the 2018 team. That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. You said everything I have been thinking! JBJ has been a thrill to watch in CF, and the 29 games streak in 2016 set his expectations way too high (like Buchholz no hitter in his 2nd big league start in 2007). The reality is that JBJ’s hot streaks do NOT make up for his cold streaks, and it would not take a great CFer’s offense to outweigh JBJ’s defense. JBJ is on the wrong side of 30 and will continue to ‘lose a step’ as he ages. It is time to move on with a $560,000 prospect (Duran at some point this year) and save the $24 million for pitching or where ever Bloom can put it to good use.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Mar 4, 2021 13:44:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the Memories Boys!!....It was fun while it lasted. It is fun, so savor it. It was fun watching Fred Lynn and Jim Rice.....Garciaparra and Johnny Damon....Pedroia and Ortiz...., but time matches on and the ball players we love do not play forever. That is why Bloom came to town....to restock for #5 in this century. Savor and remember....
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Mar 4, 2021 13:53:12 GMT -5
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it. The changes Duran made last summer in Pawtucket have drastically increased his power and performance. JBJ did not carry his minor league hitting success to the mlb, so your point is moot. What matters most is how players adjust. Look at Chavis first 100 ABs vs what he has done since. JBJ’s contract of $24 million is great for him. I liked his defense and him personally. He was humble, and I liked his team spirit, but I am glad some else is paying the $24 million.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,984
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Post by jimoh on Mar 4, 2021 14:02:42 GMT -5
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it. "Jackie at the same age" looked like he was going to be a much better offensive hitter than he turned out to be. I was in Durham for his last PawSox game before his first callup, and I think he had a home run, triple, and single (I might be remembering with rose-colored glasses). There was little reason to think he was not going to be a consistently terrific offensive player. Then he was lost in the wilderness at ages 23 and 24, with one year where he was good in AAA and very bad in Boston, another year where he was terrible in both.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Mar 4, 2021 14:05:26 GMT -5
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Post by kevfc89 on Mar 4, 2021 14:13:16 GMT -5
Congrats to JBJ...always appreciated him here and what he brought every day. Now, it's time to look to the future outfield, as Duran is showing out again today and making it a little easier to picture a bright future.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,345
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Post by radiohix on Mar 4, 2021 14:19:41 GMT -5
It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it. The changes Duran made last summer in Pawtucket have drastically increased his power and performance. JBJ did not carry his minor league hitting success to the mlb, so your point is moot. What matters most is how players adjust. Look at Chavis first 100 ABs vs what he has done since. JBJ’s contract of $24 million is great for him. I liked his defense and him personally. He was humble, and I liked his team spirit, but I am glad some else is paying the $24 million. It was at the Alternate Site not the real AAA competition there's a big difference between the two and yes I won't label the spring training especially at its early stage when pitchers are still working on getting their arm strength/command back as competition too (Ask ST batting virtuoso Sam Travis or ironically JBJ) ...As I said above, until he proves that his gains are real vs some real competition in Worcester I won't bank on those gains. I'm not hating of course and I sincerely wish he'll go nuclear over there and force a promotion to the show...until then, I'm cautious.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 4, 2021 14:25:46 GMT -5
JBJ was a great Sox. Wished the bat was more consistent, but he has a place in Sox lore. Best of luck JBJ, being as long as that luck don't come around against our guys. Thanks for the efforts !!!!!
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 4, 2021 14:41:40 GMT -5
That said, I've been more than ready for quite awhile to turn the page. I really think that Jarren Duran will be a much better player than the #4 projection that was hung on him. I think he has the power to hit 20 HRs. I think he could be a .275 type hitter. And he has blazing speed. I'm hoping he'll be adequate if not better as a CF. I would think in time that Jimenez winds up in CF bumping Duran over to a corner. It's not directed to you champ but why there's a consus among the fan base that Duran will be a better hitter than JBJ? Here's a look at their respective numbers at the same age facing the same level of competition (years of stats scouting convinced that the only numbers that count are k% and ,to a lesser degree, IsoP) At age 22 vs Advanced A pitchers: JBJ: 13.2% K rate & .167 IsoP Duran: 19.5% K rate & .156 IsoP At Age 22 vs AA pitchers: JBJ: 18.1% K rate & .166 IsoP Duran: 23.9% K rate & .075(!!!!) IsoP Jackie at the same age was less strikeout prone while making harder contact while facing the same level of competition. I get that "swing change rhetoric" but until he proves it facing real competition (Not Alt site, Caribbean league, ST "competition") I'm not sold on the fact Duran projects to be a better hitter than Jackie was, his last OFFICIAL stats don't prove it. Part of it is because JBJ was never the hitter some of us thought he could be. I remember him hitting .340 something in the minors. I thought there was a .280 hitter there somewhere, but he got less out of his hit tool than expected. I mean guys hitting as well as JBJ did in the minors could probably be projected to be better hitters than .235 than JBJ was. If Duran gets as much or more than expected out of it, especially with his changed swing, which so far looks kind of good, then yeah, I am more bullish on Duran's offense. Even if it's not this year where it all comes together for Duran, but then again, I wouldn't rule it out that he hits fairly well. I admit to being biased here - I just think that Duran will be better than what has been expected of him thus far. I think he'll come up in May, struggle around .250 for awhile, but will provide a lot of speed and a glimpse of power, and with more experience perhaps he can really break out in 2022 or 2023. I think he has that kind of ability. The guy is built like a Navy Seal. I just hope he stays healthy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 4, 2021 14:57:00 GMT -5
The Santana signing is interesting.
He fits what the Red Sox are doing and he's a switch-hitter who has played the most in CF and SS and has handled all other positions other than catcher and pitcher.
So looking at the lineup:
C: Vazquez 1B: Dalbec 2b: Gonzalez SS: Bogaerts 3B: Devers LF: Cordero CF: Hernandez RF: Verdugo DH: Martinez
3 man bench: C: Plawecki OF: Renfroe (or he starts in RF, Kiké goes to 2b, Verdugo goes to CF, and Gonzalez is the bench guy) UT: Arroyo
But I think Santana could make it a four man bench or be the first guy up, ahead of Munoz perhaps, if there's an injury?
At some point, I'd think the Sox have to revert to 13 pitchers instead of 14, especially if Duran forces his way up.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 4, 2021 15:56:50 GMT -5
JBJ has to be one of the most hated/loved players I've seen in a Red Sox uniform ever. Glad he got some money, yet I was certainly ready for a change.
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Post by benzinger on Mar 4, 2021 16:04:55 GMT -5
I’ve never seen so much love for a sub-league average player. We all know he was huge during the 2018 postseason run, but this site is ridiculous. He was a lousy hitter and maddening to watch. This is an absurd take - JBJ is certainly better than a “sub league average” player. Far from it. Actually, his career OPS+ of 94 is the literal definition of him being sub-replacement level. Your apology is accepted.
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