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Benintendi traded to KC in 3-way deal w/ NYM
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 11, 2021 18:20:05 GMT -5
PTBNL deadline is always 6 months. The understanding here is the Sox had a list and would spend a month or two scouting them. Is there any language about performance? Right now Benintendi is hitting .200/.259/.200 so I'm curious if there was anything in the trade that downgraded the return if they started benching him or if he wasn't very good in general or what?
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 11, 2021 18:32:19 GMT -5
PTBNL deadline is always 6 months. The understanding here is the Sox had a list and would spend a month or two scouting them. Ok good! A while ago I asked the question whether Beni's performance would impact the basket of possible PBTBNL selections. So Chris your understanding is "No"....that the group originally posited remains the same notwithstanding what happens for Beni.
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Post by jkfer98 on Apr 11, 2021 18:34:21 GMT -5
PTBNL deadline is always 6 months. The understanding here is the Sox had a list and would spend a month or two scouting them. Is there any language about performance? Right now Benintendi is hitting .200/.259/.200 so I'm curious if there was anything in the trade that downgraded the return if they started benching him or if he wasn't very good in general or what? If there is a list of players that the Red Sox can choose from (which, to my understanding, is the case) then Benny's performance doesn't matter. Kansas City wouldn't even have any say in who the Red Sox pick from that list.
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Post by patford on Apr 11, 2021 19:53:42 GMT -5
Is there any language about performance? Right now Benintendi is hitting .200/.259/.200 so I'm curious if there was anything in the trade that downgraded the return if they started benching him or if he wasn't very good in general or what? If there is a list of players that the Red Sox can choose from (which, to my understanding, is the case) then Benny's performance doesn't matter. Kansas City wouldn't even have any say in who the Red Sox pick from that list. That's my understanding. The Sox got a list of players and have up to six months to decide which one they want.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 12, 2021 7:59:27 GMT -5
I have no independent understanding of the trade beyond what Bloom said at the time, which was that they got extra time to evaluate the players. He said nothing about Benintendi's performance.
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Post by manfred on Apr 12, 2021 9:12:13 GMT -5
I have no independent understanding of the trade beyond what Bloom said at the time, which was that they got extra time to evaluate the players. He said nothing about Benintendi's performance. I can’t imagine a trade that let a guy play then gave the return based on how he did. Is that allowed? Feels like you take your chance when you trade for a guy.
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Post by kman22 on Apr 12, 2021 9:52:21 GMT -5
I have no independent understanding of the trade beyond what Bloom said at the time, which was that they got extra time to evaluate the players. He said nothing about Benintendi's performance. I can’t imagine a trade that let a guy play then gave the return based on how he did. Is that allowed? Feels like you take your chance when you trade for a guy. I know other sports can have conditional pieces to a trade, but can't recall that happening in baseball?
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 12, 2021 10:28:45 GMT -5
If there is a list of players that the Red Sox can choose from (which, to my understanding, is the case) then Benny's performance doesn't matter. Kansas City wouldn't even have any say in who the Red Sox pick from that list. That's my understanding. The Sox got a list of players and have up to six months to decide which one they want. A list of players that can not be changed is the ONLY way someone with intelligence would operate! Unlike “significant compensation” for Theo going to the Cubs!!! If that was Cherington then I understand....(considering Hanley in the OF, Sandoval, Rusney,...). Looking at Bloom’s acquisitions I am sure he will get value back in that trade. Cordero vs RHP and Winckowski look like a decent return, so I think we all will be interested to see the rest of the deal. Young players fresh from the draft may have more upside, but taking players like Cordero or Pivetta with their underperformances may give a better idea of what is fixable and thus what kind of a return the RS will receive. Obviously getting young upside, and change of scenery players are both necessary.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 12, 2021 11:00:56 GMT -5
I have no independent understanding of the trade beyond what Bloom said at the time, which was that they got extra time to evaluate the players. He said nothing about Benintendi's performance. I can’t imagine a trade that let a guy play then gave the return based on how he did. Is that allowed? Feels like you take your chance when you trade for a guy. I should probably look it up sometime but I always wondered if something like that happened in 1975 when the Sox acquired Denny Doyle to fill the 2b hole and he played much, much better than expected. The PTBNL wound up being their 1975 closer Dick Drago. I mean how many teams include their closer as a PTBNL in a trade for a 2b? I always wondered if Doyle's unexpected performance upped the value the Sox had to give the Angels to complete that trade.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Apr 12, 2021 11:17:58 GMT -5
I can’t imagine a trade that let a guy play then gave the return based on how he did. Is that allowed? Feels like you take your chance when you trade for a guy. I should probably look it up sometime but I always wondered if something like that happened in 1975 when the Sox acquired Denny Doyle to fill the 2b hole and he played much, much better than expected. The PTBNL wound up being their 1975 closer Dick Drago. I mean how many teams include their closer as a PTBNL in a trade for a 2b? I always wondered if Doyle's unexpected performance upped the value the Sox had to give the Angels to complete that trade. Dick Drago....Complete Games from 1969 - 1974. 10, 7, 15, 11, 10, 8. That is a lot of CGs. His career Innings pitched 1875.0, and his strikeouts 987. Drago’s career ERA 3.62, so he was no slug. Wow, how times have changed.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Apr 12, 2021 11:32:42 GMT -5
It is rare but certainly possible for teams to agree that the PTNBL will be better if the traded player winds up playing more. From Wikipedia:
“While a member of the Minnesota Twins, Winfield was traded on August 31, 1994 to the Cleveland Indians for a PTBNL. Under the terms and conditions of the trade, if Winfield appeared in 16 or more games with the Indians, the Twins would receive a Class AA-level PTBNL, but if he played between one and 15 games the PTBNL would be Class A-level.”
There is zero indication that this is the case for Benintendi
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Post by vermontsox1 on Apr 12, 2021 11:48:33 GMT -5
I also don't think there are any conditions on the trade, but even if there were, that would only affect the prospects coming back from the Royals. Remember that the Mets part of the deal was just Khalil Lee for Wink and a PTBNL. Benintendi's performance wouldn't have anything to do with the Mets-Red Sox part. Dayton Moore even said he had no idea about the negotiations between the Mets and Red Sox.
Anyway, I think the list of names are already agreed to and now the Red Sox will do their due diligence. We'll probably hear about it sometime in the late June - mid July window.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Apr 12, 2021 12:47:09 GMT -5
I also don't think there are any conditions on the trade, but even if there were, that would only affect the prospects coming back from the Royals. Remember that the Mets part of the deal was just Khalil Lee for Wink and a PTBNL. Benintendi's performance wouldn't have anything to do with the Mets-Red Sox part. Dayton Moore even said he had no idea about the negotiations between the Mets and Red Sox. Anyway, I think the list of names are already agreed to and now the Red Sox will do their due diligence. We'll probably hear about it sometime in the late June - mid July window.
I am guessing that they want to take a good 2 months of minor league season scouting these players before they make their decision on the PTBNL.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 12, 2021 13:19:59 GMT -5
I have to admit. Cordero intrigues me. He didn’t before, but his tools seem they could click and he could be a starting level outfielder for Sox by next year. Would anyone be surprised if he outplays verdugo even? Then you add in the other 3 unnamed players and you could have a true steal type trade.
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Post by Addam603 on Apr 12, 2021 13:23:20 GMT -5
I have to admit. Cordero intrigues me. He didn’t before, but his tools seem they could click and he could be a starting level outfielder for Sox by next year. Would anyone be surprised if he outplays verdugo even? Then you add in the other 3 unnamed players and you could have a true steal type trade. It would be very surprising if Cordero outplays Verdugo. Little to no chance of that happening. Cordero has shown some improvements in small sample size but it’s also only been 21 ABs. He’s still striking out too much (8 Ks in 21 ABs) and his .538 BABIP is also going to come down. I like what I’ve seen from Cordero, but let’s give him more than a week of games before we get too excited.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 12, 2021 14:04:43 GMT -5
I have to admit. Cordero intrigues me. He didn’t before, but his tools seem they could click and he could be a starting level outfielder for Sox by next year. Would anyone be surprised if he outplays verdugo even? Then you add in the other 3 unnamed players and you could have a true steal type trade. It would be very surprising if Cordero outplays Verdugo. Little to no chance of that happening. Cordero has shown some improvements in small sample size but it’s also only been 21 ABs. He’s still striking out too much (8 Ks in 21 ABs) and his .538 BABIP is also going to come down. I like what I’ve seen from Cordero, but let’s give him more than a week of games before we get too excited. Although I agree with what you say, I’m not judging this on his 1 weeks stats. I’m judging it based on his moonshots and tools. And his tools far surpass verdugos. ( no knock on verdugo). Also verdugo is or has been more injury prone. Again I’m not saying hey he’s going to be, I’m simply saying he definitely could be better than verdugo. Or heck even if he’s equal to him we win the trade. I do think he has louder tools than verdugo and could put produce benetendi.
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kevfc89
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Post by kevfc89 on Apr 12, 2021 14:13:27 GMT -5
It would be very surprising if Cordero outplays Verdugo. Little to no chance of that happening. Cordero has shown some improvements in small sample size but it’s also only been 21 ABs. He’s still striking out too much (8 Ks in 21 ABs) and his .538 BABIP is also going to come down. I like what I’ve seen from Cordero, but let’s give him more than a week of games before we get too excited. Although I agree with what you say, I’m not judging this on his 1 weeks stats. I’m judging it based on his moonshots and tools. And his tools far surpass verdugos. ( no knock on verdugo). Also verdugo is or has been more injury prone. Again I’m not saying hey he’s going to be, I’m simply saying he definitely could be better than verdugo. Or heck even if he’s equal to him we win the trade. I do think he has louder tools than verdugo and could put produce benetendi. Benintendi seems like the guy Franchy has a somewhat realistic chance of outplaying than Verdugo. By the way, Benny is starting slow again and has yet to record an extra base hit (so his ISO is .000). He's continuing his trends of striking out more and failing to impact the ball with authority.
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Post by voiceofreason on Apr 13, 2021 7:08:30 GMT -5
IMO Cordero's speed/power combination makes him the rare athlete that with some health could be a huge late bloomer. All the tools are there and he has shown the ability to go opposite field, granted he hasn't shown a lot of power that way yet but that could be coming. He does have to fix the K problem but he has also shown some good bat skills.
Hopefully dyoung is right and the Sox get lucky. The same can be said for Whitlock. It is early but some of these Bloom moves seem to be working out, a couple hr trades would be a great start to his tenor.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 13, 2021 9:43:46 GMT -5
IMO Cordero's speed/power combination makes him the rare athlete that with some health could be a huge late bloomer. All the tools are there and he has shown the ability to go opposite field, granted he hasn't shown a lot of power that way yet but that could be coming. He does have to fix the K problem but he has also shown some good bat skills. Hopefully dyoung is right and the Sox get lucky. The same can be said for Whitlock. It is early but some of these Bloom moves seem to be working out, a couple hr trades would be a great start to his tenor. Yes I think his tools are very special. In a game of failure ( at least for hitters where the best just fail less) if he can fail less with contact his tools I believe rank him as a potential middle order threat. Like Theo did with Ortiz if bloom can hit a grand slam with someone it will make his tenure a lot easier. But I believe that’s what he’s trying to do. Add enough potential homerun acquisitions together and hope a couple of them pay off, while also adding depth to fill the 1 year terms at low cost till a homerun comes along. I believe Cordero ranks in that potential homerun category as compared to a 1 year stop gap
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Post by manfred on Apr 13, 2021 9:50:07 GMT -5
I wonder how different these takes on Franchy are from those a few years ago on SD fan sites or last year on KC sites. Not to say he can’t/won’t turn it around, but, well, tantalizing talents tantalize.
Baseball history is littered with guys who are Greek gods and can’t get it together. In a very short sample, they will give you signs of greatness... the question is, can they sustain it.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 13, 2021 10:17:58 GMT -5
I wonder how different these takes on Franchy are from those a few years ago on SD fan sites or last year on KC sites. Not to say he can’t/won’t turn it around, but, well, tantalizing talents tantalize. Baseball history is littered with guys who are Greek gods and can’t get it together. In a very short sample, they will give you signs of greatness... the question is, can they sustain it. But in Franchy's case the problem seems to be his ability to stay on the field more than his performance. Since the beginning of 2018 he's hit .249/.321/.437, a 106 wRC+. Considering those are his age 23-25 seasons, plus the start of his age 26 season in which he's looked even better, that's more than tantalizing; it's the performance of an already decent player who has room to grow.
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Post by manfred on Apr 13, 2021 10:22:21 GMT -5
I wonder how different these takes on Franchy are from those a few years ago on SD fan sites or last year on KC sites. Not to say he can’t/won’t turn it around, but, well, tantalizing talents tantalize. Baseball history is littered with guys who are Greek gods and can’t get it together. In a very short sample, they will give you signs of greatness... the question is, can they sustain it. But in Franchy's case the problem seems to be his ability to stay on the field more than his performance. Since the beginning of 2018 he's hit .249/.321/.437, a 106 wRC+. Considering those are his age 23-25 seasons, plus the start of his age 26 season in which he's looked even better, that's more than tantalizing; it's the performance of an already decent player who has room to grow. I am not arguing against that, but there are a lot of guys with a lot of “buts” — heck, the Twins manager was one. We could all probably list off dozens of guys who were like elite sports cars... so perfect that they always seemed to be in the shop. I’m not actually making predictions. I am just saying, well, Franchy seems especially unpredictable, and no two week stretch gives me any greater clarity looking towards the future.
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Post by incandenza on Apr 13, 2021 10:33:54 GMT -5
But in Franchy's case the problem seems to be his ability to stay on the field more than his performance. Since the beginning of 2018 he's hit .249/.321/.437, a 106 wRC+. Considering those are his age 23-25 seasons, plus the start of his age 26 season in which he's looked even better, that's more than tantalizing; it's the performance of an already decent player who has room to grow. I am not arguing against that, but there are a lot of guys with a lot of “buts” — heck, the Twins manager was one. We could all probably list off dozens of guys who were like elite sports cars... so perfect that they always seemed to be in the shop. I’m not actually making predictions. I am just saying, well, Franchy seems especially unpredictable, and no two week stretch gives me any greater clarity looking towards the future. Fair enough. Though, despite it being to early, I am encouraged by his approach; he seems like a smart hitter, willing to go the other way and so forth, and with the track record I'd easily take him over Dalbec, for instance, in a futures market for baseball players. Really, at this moment the Benintendi-for-Franchy swap seems like about an even value trade, even setting aside the payroll savings, the extra year of control, and the 3 prospects.
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 13, 2021 10:35:09 GMT -5
I wonder how different these takes on Franchy are from those a few years ago on SD fan sites or last year on KC sites. Not to say he can’t/won’t turn it around, but, well, tantalizing talents tantalize. Baseball history is littered with guys who are Greek gods and can’t get it together. In a very short sample, they will give you signs of greatness... the question is, can they sustain it. I agree. We are many months away from knowing. And there are plenty ( to many to list) of players with “special tools” who failed at an mlb level even. Let’s hope franchy can become someone like Gregory polanco or starling marte and not a Manuel Margot or less. (
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Post by dyoungteach on Apr 13, 2021 10:38:23 GMT -5
I am not arguing against that, but there are a lot of guys with a lot of “buts” — heck, the Twins manager was one. We could all probably list off dozens of guys who were like elite sports cars... so perfect that they always seemed to be in the shop. I’m not actually making predictions. I am just saying, well, Franchy seems especially unpredictable, and no two week stretch gives me any greater clarity looking towards the future. Fair enough. Though, despite it being to early, I am encouraged by his approach; he seems like a smart hitter, willing to go the other way and so forth, and with the track record I'd easily take him over Dalbec, for instance, in a futures market for baseball players. Really, at this moment the Benintendi-for-Franchy swap seems like about an even value trade, even setting aside the payroll savings, the extra year of control, and the 3 prospects. Yes. THIS has been my argument all along while totally understanding what others are saying about risk. This is another huge win for bloom and his ability to identify talent to sign or trade for. Use to say “in Theo we trust”. Starting to feel like the saying should change to “in bloom we believe”
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