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5/14-5/16 Red Sox vs. Angels Series Thread
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 16, 2021 17:28:11 GMT -5
If Ottavino could throw more strikes, Trout and Ohtani don't bat, Barnes probably a clean inning
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Post by Guidas on May 16, 2021 18:01:47 GMT -5
At least the Yankees lost. Toronto and Tampa won.
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Post by patford on May 16, 2021 18:03:29 GMT -5
Can someone help me understand Statcast? Ohtani's HR, 372 feet down the line, is not a 0.160 xBA in my book. Does Statcast not take into effect the location of where the ball was hit? That feels like it was out in almost every ballpark. Maybe would have been foul if the fence was 330' on the RF line?
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Post by orion09 on May 16, 2021 18:33:21 GMT -5
Can someone help me understand Statcast? Ohtani's HR, 372 feet down the line, is not a 0.160 xBA in my book. Does Statcast not take into effect the location of where the ball was hit? That feels like it was out in almost every ballpark. Right, xwOBA only takes into account exit velocity, launch angle, and sprint speed. The current model doesn't use spray angle. I know Eric has made an adjustment for balls hit to center field vs left/right; if I'm summarizing correctly, he found that generating contact to CF was a repeatable skill and that balls hit to CF underperformed their xwOBA in a predictable way. It's possible some or all of the underperformance is because of the lack of adjustment for "short porch" home runs to RF and LF. technology.mlblogs.com/an-introduction-to-expected-weighted-on-base-average-xwoba-29d6070ba52b
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 16, 2021 22:08:33 GMT -5
Aggravating game. One of those games that slip into the loss column that will impact a close race which appears to be what is ahead.
The person I'm least annoyed with is Matt Barnes who has been fantastic this season and DID get 3 outs like he was supposed to do. And I don't know how a ball that stayed up that long could fall between 3 guys somehow. And of course, Ohtani, who is really something. I hate losing like that but if somebody has to hit that HR, he's the guy I'd root for as I really enjoy him.
I'm a lot more annoyed at yet another 8th inning in which Ottavino struggles to get outs, and even more annoyed at a 9th inning in which the closer gifted the Sox two base runners but the bench was so great we had two Pawtucket guys swinging from their heels. I mean was there any doubt that Chavis would strike out. And those fastballs weren't even that elevated or that overwhelmingly fast.
The Sox are great at coming back in games as that 4-0 comeback shows but are bad at coming back when trailing by a run or two in the 9th. For whatever reason they have trouble getting that clutch hit and as a result their lead over Toronto is disappearing. Fortunately for the Sox, the Yankees blew their chance to gain a game.
At this point I'd prefer to see Sawamura get some 8th inning chances, although I'm aware that he's not exactly a sure thing either. I am glad that Valdez found his way into a higher leverage setting. He's earned that chance and who knows? Maybe the 8th inning becomes his. I know I'm just tired of watching Ottavino in that role, and it is too bad, because when his stuff is on, he can be nasty, but he's nibbling too much because I think he's afraid of contact because he thinks or knows that he can't overpower a batter like he used to.
It's frustrating because I do see a team that can win 95 games if they stop tripping over themselves. The Sox could improve their offense hopefully with Santana and Duran down the road. Sale can come back and help them whether it's in the rotation or even the pen if he doesn't have time to ramp up. Hopefully Seabold and Houck get healthy. This team can get better.
But they have to stop losing these winnable games. They need to get the bridge to Barnes squared away so they don't have to make Barnes get a 4 out save and they have to find guys toward the bottom of the lineup who are capable of making contact - Arroyo coming back could help that. And yeah, they need a legit leadoff hitter which they clearly don't have.
If they don't solve these issues then you're looking at a 4th place team around 83-85 wins. If they do, they might have what it takes to win 95 if they stay reasonably healthy. I just hope they can solve some of these issues soon.
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Post by wildsox on May 16, 2021 23:15:25 GMT -5
I would be OK with Chavis in the lower half of the order. I doubt that he will greatly improve on his high ball failures, but he can hit .250 with power. If and when we find better, then he can be gone or be the extra bat and infield support. I also feel the same way about Dalbec although I rate his chances of becoming a big contributor as higher. In the limited time I’ve seen them, I’m left with far greater hope for Dalbec. For one thing, his power is more potent. But he also seems to be capable of adjusting in a way Chavis seems not to be. We’ll see. I agree that Chavis is no lost cause, and he could be ok down order. But it would be awesome to have a guy who slugs .300 but has an OBP of .400. The Sox have a lot of let’r’rip types. The problem I see with Chavis is that sure he’ll hit .250 with his fair share of homers. But it’s more about when he gets his hits and homers. When it’s crunch time I see teams going up the ladder on him every time with pitchers that don’t make many mistakes
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gerry
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Post by gerry on May 17, 2021 5:22:51 GMT -5
Agree with several posters that this loss is not on Chavis, Arauz, Barnes, anyone in particular really. It was a team loss. How soon we forget that it was, specifically, Arauz and Chavis who set up that beautiful HR and the lead. It’s a shame none of these guys are perfect, right?
Amazing how this board is swinging from enjoyable, empathetic, historically well considered analytic discussion of games and players to increasingly bar stool level assassinations of players and each other. Every single day.
So far those alternating between being loved and hated, praised and berated since ST include, alphabetically: Arauz, Barnes, Bogaerts, Bloom, Chavis, Cora, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Eovaldi, Feltman, Gonzalez, Groome, D&M Hernandez, Otto, Perez, Pivetta, Richards, Renfroe, Sawamura, Vasquez, Velasquez, Walden, Weber. Missed a few.
From the beginning, so many on this board expected and projected a sad rebuilding, maybe .500 team, which may yet happen. But these guys have battled to first place past a quarter of the season. The team is leading in all kinds of categories including pitching and offense, despite all the anticipated flaws, which are still there. Still no huzzahs, though. Meanwhile, they haven’t even been impacted yet by depth from Bazardo, Duran, Houck, Munoz, Seabold, Santana, Sale, Santana, Ward.
It’s a team that deserves our support, if not like homers, at least objectively. Objectively, thus far, they have far outperformed most expectations. Yet we get a daily bashing and demeaning of players, struggling or slow to start or even following a rough day. Talking heads do that. Some writers do that. We all know some nasty food and movie critics (who are neither good chefs nor screenwriters themselves) who would rather find fault than sing praise.
Why is this approach gaining traction as a repetitive theme here? When did phrases like Full Franchy become a thing here, as a still young and relatively inexperienced good guy struggles to contribute. It is not objective. It is not analytic. It is not kind.
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Post by soxfansince67 on May 17, 2021 8:17:12 GMT -5
Agree with several posters that this loss is not on Chavis, Arauz, Barnes, anyone in particular really. It was a team loss. How soon we forget that it was, specifically, Arauz and Chavis who set up that beautiful HR and the lead. It’s a shame none of these guys are perfect, right? Amazing how this board is swinging from enjoyable, empathetic, historically well considered analytic discussion of games and players to increasingly bar stool level assassinations of players and each other. Every single day. So far those alternating between being loved and hated, praised and berated since ST include, alphabetically: Arauz, Barnes, Bogaerts, Bloom, Chavis, Cora, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Eovaldi, Feltman, Gonzalez, Groome, D&M Hernandez, Otto, Perez, Pivetta, Richards, Renfroe, Sawamura, Vasquez, Velasquez, Walden, Weber. Missed a few. From the beginning, so many on this board expected and projected a sad rebuilding, maybe .500 team, which may yet happen. But these guys have battled to first place past a quarter of the season. The team is leading in all kinds of categories including pitching and offense, despite all the anticipated flaws, which are still there. Still no huzzahs, though. Meanwhile, they haven’t even been impacted yet by depth from Bazardo, Duran, Houck, Munoz, Seabold, Santana, Sale, Santana, Ward. It’s a team that deserves our support, if not like homers, at least objectively. Objectively, thus far, they have far outperformed most expectations. Yet we get a daily bashing and demeaning of players, struggling or slow to start or even following a rough day. Talking heads do that. Some writers do that. We all know some nasty food and movie critics (who are neither good chefs nor screenwriters themselves) who would rather find fault than sing praise. Why is this approach gaining traction as a repetitive theme here? When did phrases like Full Franchy become a thing here, as a still young and relatively inexperienced good guy struggles to contribute. It is not objective. It is not analytic. It is not kind. Well, to me, it is a gameday thread, meaning it is going to run hot with spot emotions and swing wildly. Looking back at game day threads is always going to be illogical and schizo, and not particularly based on hard facts. It's all OK with me - it is a place to vent, and a place to applaud (each when appropriate). Also - isn't it part of being a Red Sox fan (at least it is to me - as a more than 50 year fan!)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2021 9:06:40 GMT -5
Agree with several posters that this loss is not on Chavis, Arauz, Barnes, anyone in particular really. It was a team loss. How soon we forget that it was, specifically, Arauz and Chavis who set up that beautiful HR and the lead. It’s a shame none of these guys are perfect, right? Amazing how this board is swinging from enjoyable, empathetic, historically well considered analytic discussion of games and players to increasingly bar stool level assassinations of players and each other. Every single day. So far those alternating between being loved and hated, praised and berated since ST include, alphabetically: Arauz, Barnes, Bogaerts, Bloom, Chavis, Cora, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Eovaldi, Feltman, Gonzalez, Groome, D&M Hernandez, Otto, Perez, Pivetta, Richards, Renfroe, Sawamura, Vasquez, Velasquez, Walden, Weber. Missed a few. From the beginning, so many on this board expected and projected a sad rebuilding, maybe .500 team, which may yet happen. But these guys have battled to first place past a quarter of the season. The team is leading in all kinds of categories including pitching and offense, despite all the anticipated flaws, which are still there. Still no huzzahs, though. Meanwhile, they haven’t even been impacted yet by depth from Bazardo, Duran, Houck, Munoz, Seabold, Santana, Sale, Santana, Ward. It’s a team that deserves our support, if not like homers, at least objectively. Objectively, thus far, they have far outperformed most expectations. Yet we get a daily bashing and demeaning of players, struggling or slow to start or even following a rough day. Talking heads do that. Some writers do that. We all know some nasty food and movie critics (who are neither good chefs nor screenwriters themselves) who would rather find fault than sing praise. Why is this approach gaining traction as a repetitive theme here? When did phrases like Full Franchy become a thing here, as a still young and relatively inexperienced good guy struggles to contribute. It is not objective. It is not analytic. It is not kind. These are well paid baseball players so fair critiquing should go with the territory. Character assassination is a different thing. There shouldn't be attacks against a player's personally unless there's a legit reason, which with this team I see no reason for at all. I don't see guys on the police blotter or hear about guys who are highly unlikable, so no, no reason for any personal shots at anybody. But while the Cordero complaints over and over again, especially when the guy's not even playing, can be tough to listen to. That said, his performance does merit criticism. The team has been a pleasant surprise, so I'm enjoying the season as aggravating as they have been at times and yesterday's loss "hurt", which in a way is good because I was kind of numb to feeling anything about the team last year other than hoping they'd lose so they can get a higher draft pick because I knew the team was terrible and not built to even be competitive. So if people are complaining about the team, in a way, that's good because that means people do care. When they stop, that means either the team is irrelevant and people are apathetic to them. I think it's fair game to question if Chavis has figured out how to hit a fastball with zip on it as they climb the ladder on him (or whether he can lay off those pitches). Players get evaluated by Joe fan at home, but they also get evaluated by their managers, coaches, and front office staff as well, so if there's a need to be critical, so be it. Fans usually don't have the patience management has, but even management's patience has its limits.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 12:38:20 GMT -5
Agree with several posters that this loss is not on Chavis, Arauz, Barnes, anyone in particular really. It was a team loss. How soon we forget that it was, specifically, Arauz and Chavis who set up that beautiful HR and the lead. It’s a shame none of these guys are perfect, right? Amazing how this board is swinging from enjoyable, empathetic, historically well considered analytic discussion of games and players to increasingly bar stool level assassinations of players and each other. Every single day. So far those alternating between being loved and hated, praised and berated since ST include, alphabetically: Arauz, Barnes, Bogaerts, Bloom, Chavis, Cora, Cordero, Dalbec, Devers, Eovaldi, Feltman, Gonzalez, Groome, D&M Hernandez, Otto, Perez, Pivetta, Richards, Renfroe, Sawamura, Vasquez, Velasquez, Walden, Weber. Missed a few. From the beginning, so many on this board expected and projected a sad rebuilding, maybe .500 team, which may yet happen. But these guys have battled to first place past a quarter of the season. The team is leading in all kinds of categories including pitching and offense, despite all the anticipated flaws, which are still there. Still no huzzahs, though. Meanwhile, they haven’t even been impacted yet by depth from Bazardo, Duran, Houck, Munoz, Seabold, Santana, Sale, Santana, Ward. It’s a team that deserves our support, if not like homers, at least objectively. Objectively, thus far, they have far outperformed most expectations. Yet we get a daily bashing and demeaning of players, struggling or slow to start or even following a rough day. Talking heads do that. Some writers do that. We all know some nasty food and movie critics (who are neither good chefs nor screenwriters themselves) who would rather find fault than sing praise. Why is this approach gaining traction as a repetitive theme here? When did phrases like Full Franchy become a thing here, as a still young and relatively inexperienced good guy struggles to contribute. It is not objective. It is not analytic. It is not kind. These are well paid baseball players so fair critiquing should go with the territory. Character assassination is a different thing. There shouldn't be attacks against a player's personally unless there's a legit reason, which with this team I see no reason for at all. I don't see guys on the police blotter or hear about guys who are highly unlikable, so no, no reason for any personal shots at anybody. But while the Cordero complaints over and over again, especially when the guy's not even playing, can be tough to listen to. That said, his performance does merit criticism. The team has been a pleasant surprise, so I'm enjoying the season as aggravating as they have been at times and yesterday's loss "hurt", which in a way is good because I was kind of numb to feeling anything about the team last year other than hoping they'd lose so they can get a higher draft pick because I knew the team was terrible and not built to even be competitive. So if people are complaining about the team, in a way, that's good because that means people do care. When they stop, that means either the team is irrelevant and people are apathetic to them. I think it's fair game to question if Chavis has figured out how to hit a fastball with zip on it as they climb the ladder on him (or whether he can lay off those pitches). Players get evaluated by Joe fan at home, but they also get evaluated by their managers, coaches, and front office staff as well, so if there's a need to be critical, so be it. Fans usually don't have the patience management has, but even management's patience has its limits. I hate the "well, they're millionaires so I can say what I want" argument. They're millionaires because we as fans dictate the market that allows them to make that kind of money. And while yeah, they have plenty of money, they're still human beings who are doing a job. If people were tweeting every day about how much you sucked at your job you probably wouldn't feel great, and considering how much time the people that bash Franchy unprompted spend on this board I would imagine they're probably not perfect at their job either. Not saying Franchy's performance doesn't merit criticism. He's been bad. But there's a line that has been crossed multiple times here, and it reflects way more poorly on the posters than it does on Franchy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2021 13:08:01 GMT -5
These are well paid baseball players so fair critiquing should go with the territory. Character assassination is a different thing. There shouldn't be attacks against a player's personally unless there's a legit reason, which with this team I see no reason for at all. I don't see guys on the police blotter or hear about guys who are highly unlikable, so no, no reason for any personal shots at anybody. But while the Cordero complaints over and over again, especially when the guy's not even playing, can be tough to listen to. That said, his performance does merit criticism. The team has been a pleasant surprise, so I'm enjoying the season as aggravating as they have been at times and yesterday's loss "hurt", which in a way is good because I was kind of numb to feeling anything about the team last year other than hoping they'd lose so they can get a higher draft pick because I knew the team was terrible and not built to even be competitive. So if people are complaining about the team, in a way, that's good because that means people do care. When they stop, that means either the team is irrelevant and people are apathetic to them. I think it's fair game to question if Chavis has figured out how to hit a fastball with zip on it as they climb the ladder on him (or whether he can lay off those pitches). Players get evaluated by Joe fan at home, but they also get evaluated by their managers, coaches, and front office staff as well, so if there's a need to be critical, so be it. Fans usually don't have the patience management has, but even management's patience has its limits. I hate the "well, they're millionaires so I can say what I want" argument. They're millionaires because we as fans dictate the market that allows them to make that kind of money. And while yeah, they have plenty of money, they're still human beings who are doing a job. If people were tweeting every day about how much you sucked at your job you probably wouldn't feel great, and considering how much time the people that bash Franchy unprompted spend on this board I would imagine they're probably not perfect at their job either. Not saying Franchy's performance doesn't merit criticism. He's been bad. But there's a line that has been crossed multiple times here, and it reflects way more poorly on the posters than it does on Franchy. They're millionaires because of a marketplace that makes them famous, just like politicians, just like movie/TV stars, musicians, etc. And in those fields it's kind of the same story. The upside is that they make so much freaking money you can tune out and laugh your way to the bank. You don't have to worry about the financial problems most people face, the same ones who are most likely critiquing you, so which would you rather have? The downside is everybody knows your business (again personal shots, not cool, but professional criticism - par for the course). I mean if you told these guys you'd make the average person's wages and be anonymous with just your boss evaluating you, would they make that tradeoff? I don't know. I'd say probably not. That said, I do think some of the Franchy stuff is overblown. Again not the first time a guy with a marginal track record didn't even perform up to it, so the constant criticism, even in games he didn't play in are a bit over the top, although I think the bigger complaint is that like yesterday, Cora didn't feel comfortable rolling him out as a PH against a righty in the 9th - that's NOT Franchy's fault as much as it's a roster construction issue, one in which if they don't feel he is up to that, then he shouldn't even be on the roster. As a personal aside, the one thing I don't like is when fans boo their own players (unless they did something personally disgusting or didn't hustle). I mean toward the end of his career I used to cringe when Bob Stanley would come into a game, but fans in Boston would boo the crap out of him just for being called into the game. Not THAT is ridiculous, but then again fans booed Yaz and Teddy Ballgame, so I guess he was in good company. Still, I don't think that's the right way to be.
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Post by incandenza on May 17, 2021 13:17:54 GMT -5
I will never understand booing players simply for failing to perform. It's very likely that Franchy Cordero and Austin Brice are better at baseball than any of us are at anything. And the fact that they made it to the majors at all is a good indication that they're more hard-working than most of us too. Booing them is expressing anger that they're only in the top 0.02% rather than the top 0.01% of all the baseball players on earth. And if despite that they really shouldn't be on the field, that's on the GM and manager, not the player.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 15:06:50 GMT -5
I hate the "well, they're millionaires so I can say what I want" argument. They're millionaires because we as fans dictate the market that allows them to make that kind of money. And while yeah, they have plenty of money, they're still human beings who are doing a job. If people were tweeting every day about how much you sucked at your job you probably wouldn't feel great, and considering how much time the people that bash Franchy unprompted spend on this board I would imagine they're probably not perfect at their job either. Not saying Franchy's performance doesn't merit criticism. He's been bad. But there's a line that has been crossed multiple times here, and it reflects way more poorly on the posters than it does on Franchy. They're millionaires because of a marketplace that makes them famous, just like politicians, just like movie/TV stars, musicians, etc. And in those fields it's kind of the same story. The upside is that they make so much freaking money you can tune out and laugh your way to the bank. You don't have to worry about the financial problems most people face, the same ones who are most likely critiquing you, so which would you rather have? The downside is everybody knows your business (again personal shots, not cool, but professional criticism - par for the course). I mean if you told these guys you'd make the average person's wages and be anonymous with just your boss evaluating you, would they make that tradeoff? I don't know. I'd say probably not. That said, I do think some of the Franchy stuff is overblown. Again not the first time a guy with a marginal track record didn't even perform up to it, so the constant criticism, even in games he didn't play in are a bit over the top, although I think the bigger complaint is that like yesterday, Cora didn't feel comfortable rolling him out as a PH against a righty in the 9th - that's NOT Franchy's fault as much as it's a roster construction issue, one in which if they don't feel he is up to that, then he shouldn't even be on the roster. As a personal aside, the one thing I don't like is when fans boo their own players (unless they did something personally disgusting or didn't hustle). I mean toward the end of his career I used to cringe when Bob Stanley would come into a game, but fans in Boston would boo the crap out of him just for being called into the game. Not THAT is ridiculous, but then again fans booed Yaz and Teddy Ballgame, so I guess he was in good company. Still, I don't think that's the right way to be. Franchy Cordero is making $800,000 this year. While that's obviously a huge sum of money that all of us here would love to make, that's not enough to be set for life if he washes out of the majors. He's definitely not rich enough to be so high in the clouds that he can just tune everything out and cruise around in a yacht and not worry about things. I'm not going to act like I am an expert on the psychology of every professional athlete but throughout my career I have been fortunate enough to interact with many professional athletes, and they're way closer to normal people than you realize. I know of a good handful of them, even some of the highest profile ones in their sport, who go on Twitter at halftime of their games, maybe not so much looking for stuff about them but definitely at least seeing it. Most of these guys are not infallible, and I'm not so deluded to think that a game is important enough to straight up insult guys for not performing up to the standards I set for others that I could never reach myself. I think it's pretty disgusting at the end of the day.
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Post by manfred on May 17, 2021 15:36:15 GMT -5
I feel bad for Franchy, so though I am critical, my criticism is not *really* of him... it is of Cora and Bloom who put him (then and on-goingly) in a situation where he is failing by all objective measures AND where those failures are magnified by a big stage. But “Franchy” becomes a kind of shorthand for that.
My guess is there is no personal animus towards the guy. He is trying, and he still fields well, hustles etc. There are players, historically, who deserve fan thrashings for lack of effort (*cough* Panda *cough*) or bad attitude/behavior. But then there are guys who get more flack because they come to represent something people can’t necessarily directly boo — last year, people got on the bad pitchers because of frustration at the bad pitchING... I don’t think the Webers of the world personally offended fans.
Brice is a good example. Sure, he’s pretty bad. He is pretty harmless, too, as a mop up guy. But “Brice” as an expletive is not his poor performance so much as roster construction. It is just hard to chant “roster construction sucks!” So you pick on the guy whose place seems least logical (I think this even accounts for some Taylor bashing... the sense that the bullpen is too many... so each game is like Survivor to see who ought to be replaced with a bench player).
I wonder if this is all exacerbated by the tax. I don’t remember as a kid thinking “man, with that $x we could have sign player y instead without a tax hit” or the like. I know that changes how I see guys. If the Sox were just signing guys, the Richards signing would have been a whatever move. But if they only have one $10 million FA slot, if he pitches badly it is that much more irksome. We stayed under the cap for this? one might yell... then think.... wow... did I think that? What am I, their accountant?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2021 16:00:32 GMT -5
They're millionaires because of a marketplace that makes them famous, just like politicians, just like movie/TV stars, musicians, etc. And in those fields it's kind of the same story. The upside is that they make so much freaking money you can tune out and laugh your way to the bank. You don't have to worry about the financial problems most people face, the same ones who are most likely critiquing you, so which would you rather have? The downside is everybody knows your business (again personal shots, not cool, but professional criticism - par for the course). I mean if you told these guys you'd make the average person's wages and be anonymous with just your boss evaluating you, would they make that tradeoff? I don't know. I'd say probably not. That said, I do think some of the Franchy stuff is overblown. Again not the first time a guy with a marginal track record didn't even perform up to it, so the constant criticism, even in games he didn't play in are a bit over the top, although I think the bigger complaint is that like yesterday, Cora didn't feel comfortable rolling him out as a PH against a righty in the 9th - that's NOT Franchy's fault as much as it's a roster construction issue, one in which if they don't feel he is up to that, then he shouldn't even be on the roster. As a personal aside, the one thing I don't like is when fans boo their own players (unless they did something personally disgusting or didn't hustle). I mean toward the end of his career I used to cringe when Bob Stanley would come into a game, but fans in Boston would boo the crap out of him just for being called into the game. Not THAT is ridiculous, but then again fans booed Yaz and Teddy Ballgame, so I guess he was in good company. Still, I don't think that's the right way to be. Franchy Cordero is making $800,000 this year. While that's obviously a huge sum of money that all of us here would love to make, that's not enough to be set for life if he washes out of the majors. He's definitely not rich enough to be so high in the clouds that he can just tune everything out and cruise around in a yacht and not worry about things. I'm not going to act like I am an expert on the psychology of every professional athlete but throughout my career I have been fortunate enough to interact with many professional athletes, and they're way closer to normal people than you realize. I know of a good handful of them, even some of the highest profile ones in their sport, who go on Twitter at halftime of their games, maybe not so much looking for stuff about them but definitely at least seeing it. Most of these guys are not infallible, and I'm not so deluded to think that a game is important enough to straight up insult guys for not performing up to the standards I set for others that I could never reach myself. I think it's pretty disgusting at the end of the day. No, 800K won't make you set for life, but to make that for a single season? I would say the majority are living paycheck to paycheck and would take more than a decade to gross that figure. So if we're talking hardships, dealing with criticism (not personal, because personal WOULD be over the line) for lack of performance or being able to make ends meet, I would say the latter is a bigger issue, and for some of these players, if not for major league baseball, they'd be in the same boat the majority is, trying to scrape by. And yes, they deal with criticism, but on the other hand, they also deal with adulation that very few of us get for a job well done. I know if I do my job well I don't get people coming up to me telling me that I'll never have to buy another meal in the town I work or whatever. So it does swing both ways. You have any success at all, even if it's small, even if it's just a shining moment, you can make a lot of bucks on the banquet circuit. If Franchy Cordero has a Bobby Kielty moment or whatever, I'm sure somebody will pay him to come to their banquet and tell his story, so there are perks. Don't think anybody cares about the time I did my job well (as opposed to the other X pct% of the time I mess up, lol). So it's a unique thing. People just care, one way or the other. They are in an industry where your production is highly public. A lot of people doing the critiquing don't even understand the metrics properly so yeah, there is that, but in most places your productivity either can't quite be measured like it is in baseball and it's certainly not there for public consumption.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 16:13:27 GMT -5
Franchy Cordero is making $800,000 this year. While that's obviously a huge sum of money that all of us here would love to make, that's not enough to be set for life if he washes out of the majors. He's definitely not rich enough to be so high in the clouds that he can just tune everything out and cruise around in a yacht and not worry about things. I'm not going to act like I am an expert on the psychology of every professional athlete but throughout my career I have been fortunate enough to interact with many professional athletes, and they're way closer to normal people than you realize. I know of a good handful of them, even some of the highest profile ones in their sport, who go on Twitter at halftime of their games, maybe not so much looking for stuff about them but definitely at least seeing it. Most of these guys are not infallible, and I'm not so deluded to think that a game is important enough to straight up insult guys for not performing up to the standards I set for others that I could never reach myself. I think it's pretty disgusting at the end of the day. And yes, they deal with criticism, but on the other hand, they also deal with adulation that very few of us get for a job well done. I know if I do my job well I don't get people coming up to me telling me that I'll never have to buy another meal in the town I work or whatever. I don't think this argument makes any sense either. Because you (not you in particular but just generalizing) shower an athlete with love when he meets your standards, you think that gives you the right to trash him when he doesn't? How about just being a normal person, you know?
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Post by incandenza on May 17, 2021 16:23:06 GMT -5
Speaking of maligned players, here is Josh Taylor's major league career, divided into three chunks:
| IP | K/9
| BB/9 | ERA | FIP | xFIP | 5/29/19-9/25/19
| 47.1
| 11.79
| 3.04
| 3.04 | 3.11
| 3.37 | 8/17/20-4/4/21 | 8.1 | 9.72 | 6.48 | 14.04
| 6.66 | 5.83 | 4/7/21-5/16/21 | 12.2 | 9.24 | 4.26 | 2.84 | 3.53 | 3.72 |
Seven bad innings in the pandemic season plus two bad appearances to start this season and otherwise he's been quite solid.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2021 16:33:01 GMT -5
And yes, they deal with criticism, but on the other hand, they also deal with adulation that very few of us get for a job well done. I know if I do my job well I don't get people coming up to me telling me that I'll never have to buy another meal in the town I work or whatever. I don't think this argument makes any sense either. Because you (not you in particular but just generalizing) shower an athlete with love when he meets your standards, you think that gives you the right to trash him when he doesn't? How about just being a normal person, you know? "Trashing" one's performance is different than "trashing" the person himself. Film critics exist. Food critics exist. Should they not? Or do we simply just say everybody is awesome all the time?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 16:40:14 GMT -5
I don't think this argument makes any sense either. Because you (not you in particular but just generalizing) shower an athlete with love when he meets your standards, you think that gives you the right to trash him when he doesn't? How about just being a normal person, you know? "Trashing" one's performance is different than "trashing" the person himself. Film critics exist. Food critics exist. Should they not? Or do we simply just say everybody is awesome all the time? Okay but many people here have consistently gone beyond trashing his performance to trashing him. Like I said, he has been bad, and his performance deserves criticism. But if you don't think a line has been crossed you are not paying attention.
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Post by kingstephanos on May 17, 2021 17:05:13 GMT -5
"Trashing" one's performance is different than "trashing" the person himself. Film critics exist. Food critics exist. Should they not? Or do we simply just say everybody is awesome all the time? Okay but many people here have consistently gone beyond trashing his performance to trashing him. Like I said, he has been bad, and his performance deserves criticism. But if you don't think a line has been crossed you are not paying attention. While I understand where you're coming from in theory, the opposite reaction of "pearl clutching" seems a bit much as well. Give people a sequestered place to vent, imo. We are not all the same, nor should we all react to perceived problems the same way. If there is a post that we don't agree with - one that doesn't rise to the level of vitriol or outright libel - we all have the ability to move on, not engage with it.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 17:23:16 GMT -5
Okay but many people here have consistently gone beyond trashing his performance to trashing him. Like I said, he has been bad, and his performance deserves criticism. But if you don't think a line has been crossed you are not paying attention. While I understand where you're coming from in theory, the opposite reaction of "pearl clutching" seems a bit much as well. Give people a sequestered place to vent, imo. We are not all the same, nor should we all react to perceived problems the same way. If there is a post that we don't agree with - one that doesn't rise to the level of vitriol or outright libel - we all have the ability to move on, not engage with it. I'm not pearl clutching, I'm not personally offended by any of it, I just think it's stupid and immature. It's a game, they're hitting a ball with a stick. Anyone that takes it seriously enough to get that mad at a player is extremely weird to me. And I'm a big sports fan, you can be a fan and also a normal human. I promise, it's possible.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 17, 2021 17:23:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I feel like most of the discussion of Cordero in this thread has been about the discussion of Cordero. That said, I absolutely could've missed something.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on May 17, 2021 17:26:37 GMT -5
Okay but many people here have consistently gone beyond trashing his performance to trashing him. Like I said, he has been bad, and his performance deserves criticism. But if you don't think a line has been crossed you are not paying attention. Would you care to provide a reference to back this statement? If you think people have gone too far in trashing his performance then fine, but I don't recall anyone bashing him personally. Feels like we're starting to get awfully sensitive on Franchy's behalf. .. Do you read the game threads? This one has been fine, more or less, outside of some random out-of-pocket mentions, but the last one was pretty bad (are they archived? I didn't see it on the main board). And again I'm not offended or anything, I just feel like adults should be able to act like, well, adults. But whatever, that's only the tip of the iceberg of the behavior I find weird in these threads, so I'll just let it go. Chris, Ian, and the rest of the staff, I appreciate the insight, I will go back to just lurking and letting y'all care way too much about a game.
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Post by kingstephanos on May 17, 2021 18:55:54 GMT -5
While I understand where you're coming from in theory, the opposite reaction of "pearl clutching" seems a bit much as well. Give people a sequestered place to vent, imo. We are not all the same, nor should we all react to perceived problems the same way. If there is a post that we don't agree with - one that doesn't rise to the level of vitriol or outright libel - we all have the ability to move on, not engage with it. I'm not pearl clutching, I'm not personally offended by any of it, I just think it's stupid and immature. It's a game, they're hitting a ball with a stick. Anyone that takes it seriously enough to get that mad at a player is extremely weird to me. And I'm a big sports fan, you can be a fan and also a normal human. I promise, it's possible. I'm in a snarky mood and am only half joking but... pearl-clutching or pearl clutch·ing [ purl-kluhch-ing ] noun outrage or dramatic protest, caused by something the person perceives as vulgar, in bad taste, or morally wrong but that does not elicit a similarly strong reaction from most other people. Dictionary.com
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Post by jmei on May 18, 2021 19:12:35 GMT -5
Apropos of nothing, but what a shame it is that Mike Trout is (most likely) going to miss the playoffs again. One playoff appearance in 11 seasons.
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