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Post by incandenza on Jun 16, 2021 17:41:22 GMT -5
Supposedly the Red Sox have gained the 3rd highest spin rate since last year, but is there any data that shows a change in the Red Sox spin rate since the change? Kind of a Ship of Theseus issue here - there is like no overlap between last year's pitching staff and this year's.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 16, 2021 18:32:53 GMT -5
Supposedly the Red Sox have gained the 3rd highest spin rate since last year, but is there any data that shows a change in the Red Sox spin rate since the change? Kind of a Ship of Theseus issue here - there is like no overlap between last year's pitching staff and this year's. I did think about that as well. Though they still had Eovaldi and Perez. Not sure how Houck and Pivetta would factor in with the limited action in 2020 (and Houck limited in 2021). Most likely a lazy, exaggerated story.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 16, 2021 19:11:42 GMT -5
Best tightrope walker in the league has big spin rate iirc, that def contributes
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 16, 2021 19:24:29 GMT -5
I agree that it's whining (Glasnow is essentially saying that he can't throw his pitches without cheating), but it does bring into question the level of MLB's competence. MLB has known that pitchers use just about any sticky substance they can get their hands on to enhance their pitching. If they had been forward looking they could have foreseen that the use of these foreign substances would have continued to grow and push past the envelope as pitchers gain more and more of an advantage. But instead they see pitchers dominating 6 weeks into the season and make a reactionary panic move. They should have issues a warning/reminder that anyone found using a foreign substance will be ejected/fined/suspended, without taking additional measures. This wouldn't have fixed the issue, but it would have given a warning that MLB could follow-up on in the offseason with a more robust plan. I also believe that MLB should conduct analysis of all of the substances and make a re-determination as to what should, and shouldn't, be allowed. That’s actually not at all what Glasnow was saying. As a matter of fact he was pretty much saying the opposite. He has no problem executing the pitches, it’s just requiring more stress to be put on his elbow to control them without any sort of grip substance. Which is true. It doesn’t help that MLB is constantly tinkering with the balls I understand where he’s coming from. This is nothing more than the league trying to increase offense and I’ve had enough of people trying to paint this as a cheating/morality issue when it’s something the games blatantly allowed for years. I would argue that if he can't grip/control the baseball on his pitches, then he is having trouble executing the pitches. If he can't accurately throw his pitches without over-gripping (is that a thing?) or using illegal substances then shouldn't he be throwing less-good pitches instead? Given the history of 'honesty' among baseball players involved with scandal, I'm going to lean toward not believing him.
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Post by cdj on Jun 16, 2021 19:27:50 GMT -5
That’s actually not at all what Glasnow was saying. As a matter of fact he was pretty much saying the opposite. He has no problem executing the pitches, it’s just requiring more stress to be put on his elbow to control them without any sort of grip substance. Which is true. It doesn’t help that MLB is constantly tinkering with the balls I understand where he’s coming from. This is nothing more than the league trying to increase offense and I’ve had enough of people trying to paint this as a cheating/morality issue when it’s something the games blatantly allowed for years. I would argue that if he can't grip/control the baseball on his pitches, then he is having trouble executing the pitches. If he can't accurately throw his pitches without over-gripping (is that a thing?) or using illegal substances then shouldn't he be throwing less-good pitches instead? Given the history of 'honesty' among baseball players involved with scandal, I'm going to lean toward not believing him. Go watch his last two starts and tell me he has trouble executing pitches without sticky stuff They have to grip the ball harder to control it now. It puts extra stress on the arm. I reckon this isn’t going to be just him.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 16, 2021 19:28:39 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with anyone that was cheating once it became clear that MLB was going to let everyone get away with it. It's hard to stomach the whining that they only get three weeks notice that the rules are going to be enforced, though. Especially given that they were notified in spring training that this would happen, so them complaining about it being just 3 weeks is them playing the spin game: www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/03/24/mlb-foreign-substances-baseball-pitchers-crackdown/And I'm not condoning MLB here, their behavior (or lack of) essentially forced players into this situation. But listening to players complain is like getting caught going 85 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean that you get a free pass. You just happened to be the one caught. Thanks for the link - the part I didn't realize previously is that MLB had notified the players the PREVIOUS offseason. Now understanding that's the case, I still think MLB managed this poorly, but because they should have prepared and instituted the punishments during this past offseason to avoid much of this drama. (anyone wonder if MLB is going the NFL route and intentionally creating drama?)
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 16, 2021 19:36:07 GMT -5
I would argue that if he can't grip/control the baseball on his pitches, then he is having trouble executing the pitches. If he can't accurately throw his pitches without over-gripping (is that a thing?) or using illegal substances then shouldn't he be throwing less-good pitches instead? Given the history of 'honesty' among baseball players involved with scandal, I'm going to lean toward not believing him. Go watch his last two starts and tell me he has trouble executing pitches without sticky stuff They have to grip the ball harder to control it now. It puts extra stress on the arm. I reckon this isn’t going to be just him. That just reinforces that the injury probably has nothing to do with all of this and it's just a bunch of drama from a guy who's frustrated because he's hurt. Being frustrated is understandable, but blaming someone because they wouldn't let you cheat is petty.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 16, 2021 19:44:21 GMT -5
Go watch his last two starts and tell me he has trouble executing pitches without sticky stuff They have to grip the ball harder to control it now. It puts extra stress on the arm. I reckon this isn’t going to be just him. That just reinforces that the injury probably has nothing to do with all of this and it's just a bunch of drama from a guy who's frustrated because he's hurt. Being frustrated is understandable, but blaming someone because they wouldn't let you cheat is petty. Have zero idea how you took that out of my post but ok. It’s as if you completely ignored the second half of it. I for one think they should use sunscreen and rosin and to be doing this midseason as a reaction to their own mistakes of tweaking the ball is nonsense
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Post by philarhody on Jun 16, 2021 20:01:44 GMT -5
I thought what Glasnow shared was super honest. Some of the major points were that everyone was doing it, he understands why MLB wants to change the system, he thinks it’s unfair that they would change things mid season, he had forearm soreness in his first start without sunscreen and rosin, he popped his UCL and his dreams for a Cy (at least this season) are toast.
I loved what he shared. I thought it was heartfelt and real. I don’t understand why you guys say he is whining
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Post by julyanmorley on Jun 16, 2021 23:03:32 GMT -5
Spin rate king Garrett Richards put up some below par RPM numbers tonight and then it sounds like he came close to admitting after the game that he just now stopped using his stuff.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 17, 2021 8:35:33 GMT -5
The problem is the overcorrection. They've gone so far as to tell pitchers they can't wear sunscreen unless it's an outdoor day game.
Like no Spider Tack = whatever. I just don't think of sunscreen+rosin as "oh my god what a cheater," and the data shows it doesn't help with spin rate nearly as much, as I understand it.
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Post by shagworthy on Jun 17, 2021 8:52:37 GMT -5
Especially given that they were notified in spring training that this would happen, so them complaining about it being just 3 weeks is them playing the spin game: www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/03/24/mlb-foreign-substances-baseball-pitchers-crackdown/And I'm not condoning MLB here, their behavior (or lack of) essentially forced players into this situation. But listening to players complain is like getting caught going 85 MPH in a 65 MPH zone. Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't mean that you get a free pass. You just happened to be the one caught. Thanks for the link - the part I didn't realize previously is that MLB had notified the players the PREVIOUS offseason. Now understanding that's the case, I still think MLB managed this poorly, but because they should have prepared and instituted the punishments during this past offseason to avoid much of this drama. (anyone wonder if MLB is going the NFL route and intentionally creating drama?) I think that's precisely it. MLB is creating drama ahead of the CBA this offseason by devaluing their own players and creating a controversy. The commissioner alone has done more in the past 10 years to delegitimize the sport than has been done over the course of it's history. Between the constant tinkering of the on field product, the equipment, and now two distinct VERY visible scandals whereby the people who gained the most (the players) were all but shielded from most punitive measures. I wonder, what did we really get out of the cheating scandal? We got an expose', but the players were allowed to continue on as if nothing happened. I just don't see the value of turning the sport into a soap opera and gossip at the water cooler at work. If I wanted that I'd become a WWE fan. No matter the outcome this offseason, both Manfred and Tony Clark need to go.
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Post by cdj on Jun 17, 2021 9:01:54 GMT -5
The problem is the overcorrection. They've gone so far as to tell pitchers they can't wear sunscreen unless it's an outdoor day game. Like no Spider Tack = whatever. I just don't think of sunscreen+rosin as "oh my god what a cheater," and the data shows it doesn't help with spin rate nearly as much, as I understand it. Exactly it. And to do this midseason is unconscionable to me.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 17, 2021 18:14:52 GMT -5
The problem is the overcorrection. They've gone so far as to tell pitchers they can't wear sunscreen unless it's an outdoor day game. Like no Spider Tack = whatever. I just don't think of sunscreen+rosin as "oh my god what a cheater," and the data shows it doesn't help with spin rate nearly as much, as I understand it. Pitchers went too far so now they're not in the business of regulating and getting into gray areas. They want data. Half the season they were throwing wiffle balls, now they're telling everyone they need to stop. If they ban spider Tack, but allow sun screen that opens the door for, "well what about...?". I think MLB really wants to see the contrast of before and after. The fact Garrett Richards is now crying about his inability to cheat and how it's ruining the game and ruining his performance I think it just amplifies the point even more. Limited sample, but he's been less than stellar since the memo and he's correlating it to this.
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Post by cdj on Jun 17, 2021 18:19:08 GMT -5
I think calling the use of sunscreen and rosin “cheating” is hilarious. IT WAS LITERALLY ALLOWED.
I hope everybody is ready for more 4 hour games. That’s what the leagues been trying to do lately, right? Extend games?
Gee I wonder why it’s a dying sport in the states (that is what it is, for the record...even the little league in my town is drastically smaller than when I played in it 20 years ago)
It’s a ridiculous overcorrection and it’s a ridiculous time to choose to implement it
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 17, 2021 18:38:36 GMT -5
I think calling the use of sunscreen and rosin “cheating” is hilarious. IT WAS LITERALLY ALLOWED. I hope everybody is ready for more 4 hour games. That’s what the leagues been trying to do lately, right? Extend games? Gee I wonder why it’s a dying sport in the states (that is what it is, for the record...even the little league in my town is drastically smaller than when I played in it 20 years ago) It’s a ridiculous overcorrection and it’s a ridiculous time to choose to implement it Richards said he's allowed to use rosin. He's saying it's useless, does nothing, and that it's a joke and he needs the sunscreen. So, to say no rosin isn't correct. “Now I can’t do that. And on top of that, the only thing that’s provided is the rosin bag on the back of the mound, which to be honest with you, is completely useless. It does nothing. It literally, it barely even dries up sweat. It might as well not even be there. I can’t even think how many times over the entire course of my career that I’ve gone to the back of the rosin bag. Sometimes I’ve been on mounds that didn’t even have rosin bags on the back of the mound. “It by itself doesn’t do anything for anybody. I don’t know anybody that just uses rosin. If we can somehow get a rosin bag that actually worked, I think that’s something that should definitely be looked into.” We're also taking him at his word that he was only using sunscreen. I mean, Richards can't throw a curve ball anymore because he can't use sunscreen? That seems kind of problematic. Article from 2013. Passan quotes one American League pitcher who states the mixture of sunscreen and rosin creates an incredibly tacky substance similar to glue "that engineers would be jealous of." bleacherreport.com/articles/1633687-is-using-sunscreen-for-sticky-grip-a-pitchers-version-of-pine-tar-or-cheating
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Post by cdj on Jun 17, 2021 19:20:45 GMT -5
Sunscreen and rosin has been around for awhile and doesn’t cause absurd spin rates, spider tack does
Hitters can use pine tar, why can’t pitchers use something a little sticky? And he’s right, rosin by itself is basically useless.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 17, 2021 19:31:46 GMT -5
Sunscreen and rosin has been around for awhile and doesn’t cause absurd spin rates, spider tack does Hitters can use pine tar, why can’t pitchers use something a little sticky? And he’s right, rosin by itself is basically useless. I'm on the side that mlb handled this completely wrong but I don't think spider tack on a pitchers hand is all that comparable to pine tar on a batters hand?
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Post by cdj on Jun 17, 2021 19:50:22 GMT -5
Sunscreen and rosin has been around for awhile and doesn’t cause absurd spin rates, spider tack does Hitters can use pine tar, why can’t pitchers use something a little sticky? And he’s right, rosin by itself is basically useless. I'm on the side that mlb handled this completely wrong but I don't think spider tack on a pitchers hand is all that comparable to pine tar on a batters hand? I’m not condoning spider tack, but I have zero issue with sunscreen and rosin
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Post by ematz1423 on Jun 17, 2021 19:54:09 GMT -5
I'm on the side that mlb handled this completely wrong but I don't think spider tack on a pitchers hand is all that comparable to pine tar on a batters hand? I’m not condoning spider tack, but I have zero issue with sunscreen and rosin Maybe that's on my comprehension, my bad I agree for sure sunscreen and rosin mix should be allowed.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Jun 18, 2021 8:00:56 GMT -5
I see where Gerrit Cole is whining that he can't grip the baseball without his beloved stickum and is pleading with baseball to let him use the stuff.
Well booo hooo -- cry me a river.
Now maybe we'll find out how good major league pitching really is. All these guys who are throwing absolutely as hard as they can should maybe dial it back a bit and relearn how to spot the ball better rather than doing it with gunk-aided velocity and movement alone. As a side benefit, maybe these guys, when they figure it out, can pitch a little deeper into games, rather than this ridiculous, starter pitches 4 1/3 to 5 1/3 and then we parade 4+ relievers every night.
I'll put my bias on full display. It wouldn't break my heart to see baseball return to something closer to your father's sport -- or maybe your grandfather's, which for some of you, might be my generation.
Hey Gerrit, you want a suggestion for a compromise on this stuff?? How about this? Pitchers who don't use the stuff can continue to pitch from 60.5 feet. You guys who use it can pitch from 66 feet. Fair enough?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 18, 2021 8:30:10 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 18, 2021 8:38:09 GMT -5
I mean the thing with sunscreen and rosin is that there are legitimate reasons to wear sunscreen and you're allowed to use rosin and "you're only allowed to cheat in the daytime" feels like a worse compromise than "quit it with the pine tar and Gorilla glue and you can keep the Coppertone."
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Post by incandenza on Jun 18, 2021 10:11:33 GMT -5
I mean the thing with sunscreen and rosin is that there are legitimate reasons to wear sunscreen and you're allowed to use rosin and "you're only allowed to cheat in the daytime" feels like a worse compromise than "quit it with the pine tar and Gorilla glue and you can keep the Coppertone." Seems like a slightly awkward situation for dark-skinned pitchers too. "Uhh, Aroldis Chapman, are you really worried about getting a sunburn?"
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 18, 2021 10:43:54 GMT -5
I'm sure a discussion between Aroldis Chapman and Rob Drake about whether Chapman really needs sunscreen today will be civil and is just what baseball needs.
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